Outrigger vs. Single-hull sailing canoes

[Davepat76]

I have been planning to build a sailing canoe for awhile now. The problem is, I keep second-guessing which overall type to go with: a Polynesian style outrigger canoe (ex. Ulua, Wa’apa), or a single-hull canoe (ex. Bufflehead, Artemis).

I’ll give some brief background:
- Intended location for use is exposed coastal (Lake Superior, waves usually <2m), smaller lakes and rivers
- Would like to do multi-day trips
- Would like to bring a passenger (or 2, if boat allows)
- Would rather avoid trailering; roof rack transport preferred
- Many years experience with sea kayaks and canoes, as well as sailing dinghies

Can anyone offer insights regarding the pros and cons of these types of craft? Which do you think would best suit my requirements?

Much appreciated!

Dave

[sp_clark]

- Would like to bring a passenger (or 2, if boat allows)
- Would rather avoid trailering; roof rack transport preferred

Contradictory goals IMHO.

Experiences related among the members of CNC'S Waterlust Canoe (LONG) thread over on a UK forum hosted by FyneBoats give evidence of this. This design is a 17' stitch'n'glue decked canoe intended for sailing or Mirage drive propulsion, sometimes both. It can carry two moderately-sized adults, or one with two children. None of the builders I know of car-topped theirs for very long; bare hull weight starts around 115 lbs / 52 kg.

- Would like to do multi-day trips

This Waterlust design is billed as an 'expedition canoe' so for a single occupant, with sufficient kit to go on for days at a time, it's capable of accommodating your needs for carrying capacity but not with a passenger at the same time.

One US builder's done the Florida 120 once so far with mixed results. One of the above-mentioned forum's participant's done some amazing development on his to comfortably undertake days-long extended camp cruising, as well as customize its rig for local conditions of wind & water. Another's been out with a friend for extended day events covering several miles.

- Intended location for use is exposed coastal (Lake Superior, waves usually <2m), smaller lakes and rivers
- Many years experience with sea kayaks and canoes, as well as sailing dinghies

None of the Waterlust builders I know of would view being out with theirs in waves up to a meter in height an attractive proposition, even with the accessory paired ama (outrigger) option CLC'S made available, and that several of us have adopted for improved stability under sail.

I'd have to believe your prior experience with various watercraft would indicate why this would seem to be true.

With your goals, were I in your position and knowing now what I didn't know a few years ago, I'd consider something like Mike Water's W-17 trimaran design.

[Davepat76]

Thanks for the detailed reply!

Contradictory goals IMHO.

Experiences related among the members of CNC'S Waterlust Canoe (LONG) thread over on a UK forum hosted by FyneBoats give evidence of this. This design is a 17' stitch'n'glue decked canoe intended for sailing or Mirage drive propulsion, sometimes both. It can carry two moderately-sized adults, or one with two children. None of the builders I know of car-topped theirs for very long; bare hull weight starts around 115 lbs / 52 kg.

The four boats I originally listed (Bufflehead, Artemis, Ulua, Wa'apa) all fit into the car-toppable category. Of course, the outrigger canoes would have to be partially disassembled to do so (ex. Ulua hull is 64 lbs, fully rigged is 122 lbs.). The main reason for not wanting a trailerable boat isn't that I'm against trailers or trailering, but that many of the places I would like to put in don't have ramps anywhere near them. It's more an issue of weight: If it's so heavy that I can't get it up on a car, it will also likely be a nightmare to haul it over rough ground through the woods to get to the beach. I guess I could look into one of those sets of wheels that attach to the bottom of a boat to help pull it around.

I have also looked into the Waterlust with some interest, but initially dismissed it for the reasons listed above.

Thanks as well for the W-17 recommendation. I will look into it.

Dave

[sp_clark]

I don’t think you could go wrong with the Wa’apa for the intended use.

After looking for web-available stuff on those choices I'd tend to agree.

...many of the places I would like to put in don't have ramps anywhere near them.

Know what you mean.

I'm confronted with much the same frustration, or settling for public-access ramps with the inevitable pressure of other boaters' schedules.

Launch/recovery with a trailer is something I've been looking to achieve.

I've just come aware this week of this contraption maybe provide an alternative launch/recovery scenario?

[Davepat76]

I've just come aware this week of this contraption maybe provide an alternative launch/recovery scenario?

This looks quite good. Perhaps with something like this, I could get away with a heavier boat.

[sp_clark]

Depends a lot on your age/lifting ability/vehicle-of-choice.

I decided early in my Waterlust build that car-topping it on my MINI Clubman wasn't gonna happen.

That was three years ago, once I had the hull stitched up & tacked, a better appreciation for its heft. My MINI and I are three years older now... the Trailex SUT-220-S I bought works fine behind the MINI, eases the strain on my back.

Weight for Ulua you stated. For the Wa’apa I couldn't find anything. Humping 100 pound / 50 kg up over your shoulders, on & off a roof rack is a substantive effort. There are aids to this kind of thing and of course having someone along to assist makes most jobs easier.

Keep this thread updated with your progress, eh?

[cstevens]

This looks quite good. Perhaps with something like this, I could get away with a heavier boat.

I have the C-Tug dolly with the standard "Kiwi" wheels not the sand wheels, and have used it to beach launch an open water rowing shell.



That boat is well under 100lbs all up but I found it nearly impossible to pull over dry sand that was more than a couple of inches deep. Picture me straining to haul the boat up a hundred feet or so of public municipal beach while weaving in between sunbathing families. Not pretty. The dolly itself is very nice and the ability to break it down for stowage is handy but the I don't know how it would do with a much heavier boat. However the sand wheels are supposed to work better. If I try beach launching it again I would pick up a set of those first.

[Ben Fuller]

For boats in the weight range you are talking the vehicle is important. I could cartop my 138lb decked sailing canoe on my old SAAB where the racks were right aft on the top and the boat was long enough to clear the tail. Boat was on a dolly, I picked up the bow and set it on the rack, then went aft and skidded it up on the roof racks. The dolly, a standard seitech, was then broken down and stowed in the vehicle.

More modern vehicles, higher, need help. For my truck now, i have a roller on the rear rack. Boat is on a lash on dolly at the after end. Bow on the roller, move aft and lift and push. I note that some of the commercial rack companies make extensions that pull back, and extensons that pull out sideways from the roof rack. Point is to lift no more than half the boat weight,

People solo cartop Lasers, Sunfish etc using this system and a full collapsible dingy dolly.

The lash on dollies work pretty well if you have the right wheels.

[Davepat76]

Keep this thread updated with your progress, eh?

I will! As soon as I finalize my design choice, I have to decide whether I will begin construction in my garage soon, or wait until the end of winter (I don’t want to ruffle any feathers with a prolonged “mess” out there

Either way, I am determined to have a sailing boat on the beach by next summer. I haven’t had one for 3 summers now and I’m missing it badly.

[sp_clark]

(I don’t want to ruffle any feathers with a prolonged “mess” out there )

You will, inevitably, regardless of whether you start today or next March.

...I am determined to have a sailing boat on the beach by next summer.

Then you best start soon! Mess notwithstanding, there will be times (hours, days, maybe a week or more) when you Just Don't DO Much towards completing your goal.

I started my Waterlust build on 11/3/19. The kit had rested on the basement floor for nearly two years while I 'got ready'. Being too bigh to build in basement I wanted my half of our shared, attached garage to be as ready as myself before I started putting epoxy to puzzle joints.

I expected to be waterborne by mid-June at minimum in 2020.

COVID-19 put the kabosh to those plans, along with delays both expected and un. Didn't launch until August '21.

Still, you probably have more experience with canoes & small boats than I can claim so your interruptions shouldn't be as long as mine.

... the vehicle is important. I could cartop my 138lb decked sailing canoe on my old SAAB....

Which one?

I drove SAABS for nearly 30 years with the odd Mitsubishi or Grande Voyager thrown in. 99's, 900's, 900-T's. Any of their roofs were longer than my Clubman's. Not having rain gutters makes racking choice trickier, plus the rack I brought forward from the '03 I drove still doesn't put the racks far enough apart to properly support a 17' hull up top; too much overhang at each end.

More modern vehicles, higher, need help.

That (used) Grande Voyager - we parted ways in 2002 after four years's 20,000 miles per - would have been perfect.

Point is to lift no more than half the boat weight...

Exactly.

And then to keep it all up there, safe & secure, while in transport mode.

[cstevens]

For boats in the weight range you are talking the vehicle is important. I could cartop my 138lb decked sailing canoe on my old SAAB where the racks were right aft on the top and the boat was long enough to clear the tail. Boat was on a dolly, I picked up the bow and set it on the rack, then went aft and skidded it up on the roof racks. The dolly, a standard seitech, was then broken down and stowed in the vehicle.

More modern vehicles, higher, need help. For my truck now, i have a roller on the rear rack. Boat is on a lash on dolly at the after end. Bow on the roller, move aft and lift and push. I note that some of the commercial rack companies make extensions that pull back, and extensons that pull out sideways from the roof rack. Point is to lift no more than half the boat weight,

People solo cartop Lasers, Sunfish etc using this system and a full collapsible dingy dolly.

The lash on dollies work pretty well if you have the right wheels.

I'll note that angle is everything in using the "lift one end up" technique. I used to car top by lifting boats onto the rack from the rear using a roller. Until the day when the canoe I was loading slipped back a few inches and off the roller - and right through the back window of my Audi wagon. That was a thousand dollar mistake. Now I have a trailer.

[sp_clark]

...and right through the back window of my Audi wagon. That was a thousand dollar mistake.

No insurance claim?

I put a 10' length of 3" DWV through the windshield of one of those SAABS once.

Put the 4" in first, it fit fine up on the dash, so I slid the 3" I also needed into it.

Not thinking it'd just keep going after my shove, rather than stop short of the windshield.

I can do DIY plumbing just fine.

DIY windshield repair's a bit outside my skillset, then and now.

Besides I'm twice as old now as I was then.

[cstevens]

No insurance claim?

I put a 10' length of 3" DWV through the windshield of one of those SAABS once.

Put the 4" in first, it fit fine up on the dash, so I slid the 3" I also needed into it.

Not thinking it'd just keep going after my shove, rather than stop short of the windshield.

I can do DIY plumbing just fine.

DIY windshield repair's a bit outside my skillset, then and now.

Besides I'm twice as old now as I was then.

That whole rear window repair was such a debacle. I don't even remember where I ended up with the insurance. I think the deductible was high enough that it wasn't worth filing a claim. But it happened right before Christmas and I couldn't find anyone who would do the job until after the new year. And then when I did get it into the glass shop they ordered the wrong part *twice* before they got it done. All up I think it took a couple of months before I had the car back. So now I have PTSD about putting boats on top of cars...

[WI-Tom]

This thread seems a likely spot to pass along a video I found just recently--a long cruise in an Artemis canoe on the coast of Sweden. Gets me thinking...

[Dave Wright]

I cartopped boats for years, then I trailered larger boats. Now I'm back to smaller boats I got a truck bed hitch extender. It was about 150 bucks. After roping some 20 foot deck boards to the side of my truck and worrying about scraping the paint, I decided to get one. So far so good. It makes hauling kayaks and other small boats a breeze, no high lifting to cartops.

[Woxbox]

I have been planning to build a sailing canoe for awhile now. The problem is, I keep second-guessing which overall type to go with: a Polynesian style outrigger canoe (ex. Ulua, Wa’apa), or a single-hull canoe (ex. Bufflehead, Artemis).

I’ll give some brief background:
- Intended location for use is exposed coastal (Lake Superior, waves usually <2m), smaller lakes and rivers
- Would like to do multi-day trips
- Would like to bring a passenger (or 2, if boat allows)
- Would rather avoid trailering; roof rack transport preferred
- Many years experience with sea kayaks and canoes, as well as sailing dinghies

Can anyone offer insights regarding the pros and cons of these types of craft? Which do you think would best suit my requirements?

Much appreciated!

Dave

Joining the talk a bit late here. But I think it comes down to whether or not you are a speed junkie.

--A wider boat will give the stability you need unaided by an outrigger, but it will still want a conservative sail plan. It will also take extra weight easily.

--A skinnier boat will safely take more sail and go a lot faster, but at the expense of simplicity and load carrying ability.

I used to be a speed junkie, and would have gone immediately to a quick outrigger or trimaran, sketching plans to set up a dome tent on the trampoline and generally making it all very complicated. But yes, exciting to sail at times.

Today, I'm happy to take my time and keep it simple. I'd be thinking a very fat, partially decked canoe big enough to sleep on the bottom and still have room in the ends to stow all the gear I might need, plus other stuff.

[Ben Fuller]

Which one?

I drove SAABS for nearly 30 years with the odd Mitsubishi or Grande Voyager thrown in. 99's, 900's, 900-T's. Any of their roofs were longer than my Clubman's. Not having rain gutters makes racking choice trickier, plus the rack I brought forward from the '03 I drove still doesn't put the racks far enough apart to properly support a 17' hull up top; too much overhang at each end.

Classic 900's 91, 92 and the current one, a summer driver, the 900T. The one I couldn't afford back in 91. Gutter racked cars made getting the rear rack aft very easy.

Clubman not so easy; the rowing shell solution of having a strong back beam running fore and aft on the roof racks with a couple of slings or V supports would work. It is a commerically made unit designed to fit on Yak or Thule racks. But it isn't the ideal vehicle for roof topping, although a friend does 2-3 skin on frame kayaks on his.

[Davepat76]

This thread seems a likely spot to pass along a video I found just recently--a long cruise in an Artemis canoe on the coast of Sweden. Gets me thinking...

You read my mind! I watched this video recently and have reached out to the video's maker regarding his experience with building and sailing Artemis.

Dave

[Davepat76]

--A wider boat will give the stability you need unaided by an outrigger, but it will still want a conservative sail plan. It will also take extra weight easily.

--A skinnier boat will safely take more sail and go a lot faster, but at the expense of simplicity and load carrying ability.

I used to be a speed junkie, and would have gone immediately to a quick outrigger or trimaran, sketching plans to set up a dome tent on the trampoline and generally making it all very complicated. But yes, exciting to sail at times.

Today, I'm happy to take my time and keep it simple. I'd be thinking a very fat, partially decked canoe big enough to sleep on the bottom and still have room in the ends to stow all the gear I might need, plus other stuff.

Thanks for this bit of insight. The boat's speed is not a critical issue for me (not that I'm looking for it to be slow). Mostly, I think I want it to be relatively uncomplicated, as life experience has taught me that the more fussy something is, the less it gets used. If this were the only issue I needed to resolve, I would head straight for one of the smaller, car-toppable single-hull sailing canoes (Bufflehead, etc.), and that's still very much on the table. However, I find myself wondering about their performance and safety in rougher conditions, and if might want to bring out a friend or two sometimes, which only the outriggers could do. Decisions, decisions...

Dave

[Davepat76]

Now I'm back to smaller boats I got a truck bed hitch extender.

This looks like the simplest of all options for moving smaller craft! Now, I just have to get a pickup truck...

[Joost Engelen]

I have sailed often in company of the Artemis shown in the video above. The boat is very capable and the sailor is experienced (used to sail flying moths, so is used to narrow unstable boats). I have also tried out his boat (I sail a Viola sailing canoe as well as a Kombi sailing canoe - both designed by Michael Storer).

The Artemis can be paddled 2-up. Sailing it 2-up, it will feel very small. It also depends whether you sail it seated down on hiking from the side decks. If the latter, you can carry more sail and go faster. If the first, it will be easier to sail with crew.

Sailing with 2 passengers will not work, the Artemis (or Bufflehead) are simply do not have the carrying capacity to do this.

The owner of the Artemis in the photo now uses small inflatable floats on a single outrigger when sailing in challenging areas (gives more time to act when close to a capsize). This also does not get in the way of paddling with a double bladed paddle. In protected areas he does not use the floats, also because it adds rigging time (like you say, simpler boat makes you use it more often).

Lastly, my understanding is that the Bufflehead plans are difficult to source nowadays. The Artemis was developed by its designer as a simpler approach keeping the good qualities of the Bufflehead but making the build easier.

[John Perry]

Regarding carrying boats on car roofs, this video courtesy of Amateur Yacht Research Society, may show you a way to do it. The whole video is a copy of a live Zoom meeting and I think a bit tedious to watch right through but if you fast forward to 46:25 minutes you see a short video clip showing the main features of the boat including how it can be easily loaded and unloaded to/from a car roof.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG37hPFgNvw

[Dinghy Pipedreams]

When I was a kid (1960's) my Dad had a wheel on his 12 aluminum skiff's bow. He's invert the boat onto that wheel and run it up a jointed aluminum U channel track to the roof racks. I think the angled track and the roof rack was a combo. purchase (as one product line).
Probably through either Sears or Montgomery Wards.
I haven't seen anything similar in recent times, online. It worked very well and was simple and cheap (back then). Anyone remember these units? Anything similar today?

[Gary Dierking]

I've used two ways to carry outrigger canoes on trailers so that there is almost no reassembly required. The white canoe is light enough to cartop but would have to be relashed together. The red canoe has hinge crossbeams so it's just a matter of replacing two pins in the hinge.

uluatrailer.jpg VM-trailer.jpg

[Davepat76]

I've used two ways to carry outrigger canoes on trailers so that there is almost no reassembly required. The white canoe is light enough to cartop but would have to be relashed together. The red canoe has hinge crossbeams so it's just a matter of replacing two pins in the hinge.

Hi Gary!

The hinged iakos on the red canoe are particularly interesting to me. Again, anything that cuts down on setup time is a huge plus. I'm guessing you could employ the same system for a double outrigger as well (?).

My concern with trailering is taking the boat in/out of my normal launch site (see picture below). While I could cut down some trees, and even grade out the somewhat steep incline in the bush area, I'd still be left with all that soft sand and rocks; My vehicle is not up to the task. Also, I don't own a dedicated boat trailer, but I do have a utility trailer that I use for a tractor. I was wondering if I could retrofit my trailer to carry a canoe, which I could unload up behind the RV trailer (pictured), and use a small wheeled dolly to push it down to the water? Do you think that say, a Tamanu with hinged double-outriggers, would be too heavy to accomplish this?

Dave

IMG_6553.jpg

[Dave Wright]

"I do have a utility trailer that I use for a tractor.."

Will the tractor function adequately in sand to solve your issues??

[Gary Dierking]

If you can't get a trailer close enough to the water, I have small home made beach carts. You can get fat balloon tires if the beach is very soft. I have also used one of the folding kayak carts for the ama.

P5300024.jpgScreen Shot 2022-10-07 at 7.19.33 AM.jpg

[Davepat76]

"I do have a utility trailer that I use for a tractor.."

Will the tractor function adequately in sand to solve your issues??

It's from 1948. I don't think the skinny front tires would do well in the sand.

[Davepat76]

If you can't get a trailer close enough to the water, I have small home made beach carts. You can get fat balloon tires if the beach is very soft. I have also used one of the folding kayak carts for the ama.

Those look good. I never thought of putting it amidships like that. I was more picturing putting the wheels at one end and lifting the other end. I guess it depends how flat the terrain is. Then again, I have no experience with such things.

[Davepat76]

I have sailed often in company of the Artemis shown in the video above. The boat is very capable and the sailor is experienced (used to sail flying moths, so is used to narrow unstable boats). I have also tried out his boat (I sail a Viola sailing canoe as well as a Kombi sailing canoe - both designed by Michael Storer).

The Artemis can be paddled 2-up. Sailing it 2-up, it will feel very small. It also depends whether you sail it seated down on hiking from the side decks. If the latter, you can carry more sail and go faster. If the first, it will be easier to sail with crew.

Sailing with 2 passengers will not work, the Artemis (or Bufflehead) are simply do not have the carrying capacity to do this.

The owner of the Artemis in the photo now uses small inflatable floats on a single outrigger when sailing in challenging areas (gives more time to act when close to a capsize). This also does not get in the way of paddling with a double bladed paddle. In protected areas he does not use the floats, also because it adds rigging time (like you say, simpler boat makes you use it more often).

Lastly, my understanding is that the Bufflehead plans are difficult to source nowadays. The Artemis was developed by its designer as a simpler approach keeping the good qualities of the Bufflehead but making the build easier.

Thanks for this info!

[Davepat76]

I thought it might be a good time to recap, based on these discussions, as it relates to the original question. At risk of oversimplifying, here's my comparison:


Single-hull sailing canoes (Artemis, Waterlust, Bufflehead, et al.)

PROS
- Relatively uncomplicated (hull + leeboard, rudder, mast/spars & sail)
- Faster set up time at launch
- Light, compact, and easily moved
- Car roof-rack transportation (with some exceptions)
- Single or double-bladed paddle can be used

CONS
- Unstable compared to other sailing craft (dinghies, outriggers)
- Not as suitable for rough conditions (but detachable outriggers could mitigate)
- Not as fast as most outriggers
- Limited cargo & passenger space (No more than 2 people for day sailing, limited to 1 for multi-day)


Outrigger sailing canoes (Ulua, Tamanu, Wa'apa, Melanesia, et al.)

PROS
- More stable
- Handles rougher conditions (than narrow single hull)
- Faster
- Can carry more cargo & passengers (depending on model & length)
- Can use small outboard motor (depending on model)

CONS
- More complex (main hull + 1 or 2 amas, iakos (cross-beams), leeboard, rudder, mast/spars & sail)
- Longer set up time at launch
- Larger footprint (ie. takes up more space on beach or at marina, dock, etc.)
- Heavier & more cumbersome (might require 2nd person or wheeled dolly to move)
- Must be trailered (or, if car-toppable, requires more disassembly)
- Single-blade paddle only


Let me know if you agree with this comparison. Have I missed anything?

Dave

[skuthorp]

If I haven't suggested it before, look up the Open Canoe Sailing Group.

[Woxbox]

Dave, I will disagree with part of your analysis. Particularly the notion that the multihull has more carrying capacity. For a given length, a good multi can carry much less weight than a typical monohull can. Having a big platform between the hulls doesn't change this.

A fair comparison needs to start with the total weight of people and gear that you want to move with the boat. Now design mono and a multi-hull boats to do that job. The monohull will be shorter, beamier, and far cheaper than the multihull. And it will, as you say, be quicker and easier to transport and set up. The multi may or may not be more seaworthy. That depends on the particulars of the two boats being compared.

Not bashing tris and proas here, I've owned two trimarans and a big catamaran. They are fantastic at what they do well. But they don't do everything well, and if simplicity and ease of use are high on the list, a monohull may be the best choice.

[Davepat76]

Dave, I will disagree with part of your analysis. Particularly the notion that the multihull has more carrying capacity. For a given length, a good multi can carry much less weight than a typical monohull can. Having a big platform between the hulls doesn't change this.

A fair comparison needs to start with the total weight of people and gear that you want to move with the boat. Now design mono and a multi-hull boats to do that job. The monohull will be shorter, beamier, and far cheaper than the multihull. And it will, as you say, be quicker and easier to transport and set up. The multi may or may not be more seaworthy. That depends on the particulars of the two boats being compared.

Not bashing tris and proas here, I've owned two trimarans and a big catamaran. They are fantastic at what they do well. But they don't do everything well, and if simplicity and ease of use are high on the list, a monohull may be the best choice.

Point taken, thanks for this. During the course of this quixotic investigation, I have gradually become aware that comparing single-hull and outrigger sailing canoes is more apples vs. oranges than I originally wished it to be. In the end, it seems that the main criteria I am looking for in a craft is the ability to get it to & from the water and set up, by myself, without definitively requiring a boat trailer & ramp. The solution has become apparent: it's either a boat that is light enough to carry, or one that is not so unwieldy that it cannot be pushed/pulled on a wheeled device. (This was the main reason I parted ways with my O'Day Javelin.)

...But perhaps this new definition includes other craft that I had not previously considered? Undoubtedly so. I will do some more research. At some point though, both because I want to get started soon and because I don't want to drive myself even more crazy, I have to make a decision. Currently, I am leaning towards a tri version of the Tamanu.

Dave

[Woxbox]

Currently, I am leaning towards a tri version of the Tamanu.

Well, from the Duckworks description:

While my other designs are cartoppable, the Tamanu is almost too large and heavy to be transported on a car roof. Heavier racks on a pickup truck or a trailer is recommended.

I would strongly advise you to mock up the main hull with cardboard or whatever you have on hand, and consider fitting two people and gear for a few days in that hull. The crew would be sitting on, not in, the hull. There's comfort consideration in that. I'm sure this can be done, but is it the best way to reach your goals? I assume you could install multiple hatches to keep gear below the deck. That point does put the Tamanu above fully open boats. But I, for one, can't be comfortable all day sitting on a platform with no back support.

Your goal -- light, car-toppable cruiser that can take two is a very tough one to pull off. Small trimarans are certainly a good option in that you can carry them down to the beach in pieces to be assembled at water's edge. The devil is in the details, of course.