Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 35 of 38

Thread: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,855

    Default Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    This is in response to Wi-Tom's assertion that BrianW is forcing his views on other people. It's the other way around.

    The implication is that the religious beliefs and moral values of the parents of school children are not protected by the Constitution. They are.

    The principles:

    1. Liberty, as in the right to control the education of one's children.
    2. Liberty, as in the right to free exercise of religion.

    The Amish argued that compulsory public school past 8th grade socialized their children in ways that offended their religious principles and violated their rights as parents. They won -- Wisconsin v. Yoder, 1972.

    Oregon refused to make peyote legal for practitioners of certain strains of Native American religion. Oregon found a friend in Justice Scalia, who upheld the peyote ban, announcing a new doctrine -- expressly not extended to the Amish schooling situation -- known as the "generally applicable" rule -- peyote is prohibited to everyone, therefore the prohibition does not burden the Native American's right to free exercise of religion -- Employment Division v. Smith, 1990.

    The current Supreme Court is itching to over-rule Scalia's rule. They came within a hair of doing it in a recent unanimous decision. All nine, from Breyer and Sotomayor to Alito and Thomas. Very likely Roberts, too, but he wanted a decision on the narrowest possible grounds.

    Fulton v. City of Philadelphia (2021)
    https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremec...9-123_CONCUR_5

    The City contracted with Plaintiff Catholic Social Services -- for more than fifty years -- and others, to provide foster care services, including "certifying" applicants as suitable candidates for foster parenthood. CSS certified single gay applicants but refused to certify partners in same sex marriages, on religious grounds -- CSS holds the religious belief that marriage is a sacred bond between a man and a woman -- but this violated the city's non-discrimination guidelines. CSS's contract was cancelled for that reason. The city's contract letting procedures allowed for some official to grant exemptions to the guidelines, but CSS was refused an exemption.

    Held: a law is not "generally applicable" -- the Scalia rule -- if it invites the government to consider the particular reasons for a person’s conduct by creating a mechanism for individualized exemptions. Where such a system of individual exemptions exists, the government may not refuse to extend that system to cases of religious hardship without a found to be compelling, determined after an inquiry by the most rigorous standard -- strict scrutiny. "A government policy can survive strict scrutiny only if it advances compelling interests and is narrowly tailored to achieve those interests."

    So the decision on the application of the Scalia rule was unanimous -- by its own terms, the rule was not applicable; if an exemption was available, CSS was constitutionally entitled to one. Chief Justice Roberts did the conservative thing by deciding on the narrowest possible grounds, like he did with Obamacare. But all of the "Republican Bloc" of the Court wanted to go further, and S can the Scalia rule entirely. Because it's nonsensical. Congress tried twice, once led by Chuck Shumer, and next time by Orrin Hatch and Edward Kennedy, to enact statutes as a substitute for the Consitutional law Scalia did away with, like they want to do now with abortion; but Congress speaks with no authority as to what the Constitution means.

    Meanwhile it will continue to occur to other cities, and all government entities, including schools -- "Philadelphia lost because they offered exemptions; eliminate exemptions, problem solved."

    The other Republican bloc justices, and possibly Roberts too, believe that the exemption is a requirement, not an option. It already is a requirement when it comes to schools; an action that is a violation of either right cannot be justified unless there is a compelling reason, and the action is narrowly tailored to minimize the violation. That may require the availability of an exemption, and separate classes, books, restrooms, whatever. Depends on the nature of the claim in each case. What you can't do is to simply set the parents' rights aside, without due process. The schools must accomodate the parents, if possible; not the other way around. And the courts are the final authority, not "democracy".
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,855

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    Abortion, same.

    Alito & the Gang didn't outlaw abortion. They gave the states the power to decide for themselves. They can say yes, or no.

    So the same decisions are to be made, according to the same principles, in state courts.

    Reds are prepared. Are Blues?
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    victoria, australia. (1 address now)
    Posts
    71,411

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    "1. Liberty, as in the right to control the education of one's children."
    What about the children's right to be educated, not propagandised?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    59,408

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    "1. Liberty, as in the right to control the education of one's children."
    What about the children's right to be educated, not propagandised?
    This.

    Classic demonstration of another example of The Law of Unintended Consequences built into the US Constitution.
    All children/young people should have access to the best education that the nation can provide.
    Same-sex couples should not be discriminated against because of religious bigotry.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Wrocław, Poland
    Posts
    13,520

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    This is in response to Wi-Tom's assertion that BrianW is forcing his views on other people. It's the other way around.
    You're mistaken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    The implication is that the religious beliefs and moral values of the parents of school children are not protected by the Constitution.


    That is not at all the implication.

    First of all, attendance at public schools is not compulsory. There are other options for parents to meet their legal obligations regarding the education of their children. So, arguably, nothing that happens in public schools is forced on anyone by the state. Don't like comprehensive sex education, or discussions of gender identity and LGBTQ+ rights? No worries. Don't send your children to public schools. But if you do attend schools, you retain the right to practice your religion. You can pray. You can be a heterosexual. You can believe that every member of the LGBTQ+ community will burn in hell forever. You can use the bathroom suited for the biological sex you held at the moment you were born. You can abstain from sexual contact of any kind because every sperm is sacred, or because sex might lead to dancing, or whatever.

    If anything is "forced" on students in public schools, it is the requirement to behave in a way that fits the idea that while you have individual rights, so do others--and that those rights persist, even when the use of those rights offends your religious and moral sensibilities. Of course, you can believe whatever you want about that. Schools do not regulate or coerce belief--only behavior. Denying others the right to live according to their own beliefs, as Brian W. and other right-wing religious people tend to attempt, is something that the state--and its individual members--is expressly forbidden from doing.

    Secondly, to believe that the current Supreme Court's interpretations are the correct ones is... to be polite, misguided in the extreme.

    So, there's that...

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Connecticut, of the newer England.
    Posts
    13,056

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    First of all, attendance at public schools is not compulsory. There are other options for parents to meet their legal obligations regarding the education of their children. So, arguably, nothing that happens in public schools is forced on anyone by the state.
    This is where your otherwise sensible argument goes off the rails, for me anyway. The other options for parents to meet their educational obligations present such an economic burden that this immediately becomes a situation in which those of poor or modest means do not enjoy equal freedom.

    I prefer to argue on the basis that if one objects to aspects of a school's curriculum one is free to teach the preferred perspective of that issue at home. Sex education, gender equality, evolution, flat-earth... whatever. If it's such a core-value of your religious or cultural system it shouldn't be such a stretch to reinforce what you're probably already upholding at home.
    If you fear your child's in-school exposure to something that society is going to reveal eventually anyway... well yeah its tough to swim upstream but you do you.
    "Visionary" is he who in every egg sees a carbonara.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,855

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    "1. Liberty, as in the right to control the education of one's children."
    What about the children's right to be educated, not propagandised?
    What right is that?

    The child is in the legal custody of the parent. The parent decides whether the child is being propagandized. It's the parent's right that's being infringed.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    59,408

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Figment View Post
    I prefer to argue on the basis that if one objects to aspects of a school's curriculum one is free to teach the preferred perspective of that issue at home. Sex education, gender equality, evolution, flat-earth... whatever. If it's such a core-value of your religious or cultural system it shouldn't be such a stretch to reinforce what you're probably already upholding at home.
    If you fear your child's in-school exposure to something that society is going to reveal eventually anyway... well yeah its tough to swim upstream but you do you.
    That is OK . . . providing there is some system to ensure that the education meets a certain standard and is factually correct.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Bainbridge Island WA
    Posts
    5,197

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    That is OK . . . providing there is some system to ensure that the education meets a certain standard and is factually correct.
    Problem is, we live in a world where what is "factually correct" is being actively ignored.
    Steve

    If you would have a good boat, be a good guy when you build her - honest, careful, patient, strong.
    H.A. Calahan

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Connecticut, of the newer England.
    Posts
    13,056

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    more specifically: if one objects to aspects of a school's curriculum one is free to teach the preferred perspective of that issue at home to complement/counteract the teachings in school.

    (not in lieu of the teachings in the public school)
    "Visionary" is he who in every egg sees a carbonara.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Wrocław, Poland
    Posts
    13,520

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    First of all, attendance at public schools is not compulsory. There are other options for parents to meet their legal obligations regarding the education of their children. So, arguably, nothing that happens in public schools is forced on anyone by the state.
    Quote Originally Posted by Figment View Post
    This is where your otherwise sensible argument goes off the rails, for me anyway. The other options for parents to meet their educational obligations present such an economic burden that this immediately becomes a situation in which those of poor or modest means do not enjoy equal freedom.
    I get where you're coming from, but I disagree. When have the poor and people of modest means ever enjoyed equal freedom?

    We have the freedom to choose whatever methods of transportation we want to. That fact implies no guarantee that I will be able to have a private Lear jet so I can have freedom that is "equal" to the freedom enjoyed by the wealthy.

    We have the freedom to choose whatever methods of education we want for our children. Again, that's not a guarantee that I send my children to private boarding school to be "equal" with those wealthy enough to afford it.

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Wrocław, Poland
    Posts
    13,520

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by stromborg View Post
    Problem is, we live in a world where what is "factually correct" is being actively ignored.
    Far worse than that--not "actively ignored" but "violently opposed."

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    59,408

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by stromborg View Post
    Problem is, we live in a world where what is "factually correct" is being actively ignored.
    Not by our Department of Education, who sets the standards.
    If little Tin Pot England can do it, anyone can.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    59,408

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Figment View Post
    more specifically: if one objects to aspects of a school's curriculum one is free to teach the preferred perspective of that issue at home to complement/counteract the teachings in school.

    (not in lieu of the teachings in the public school)
    Which may well leave the kids with failed exam results and limited access to college. Yes?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Wrocław, Poland
    Posts
    13,520

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    What right is that?

    The child is in the legal custody of the parent. The parent decides whether the child is being propagandized. It's the parent's right that's being infringed.
    There is no "right" (parental or otherwise) being infringed by public schools' support of equal rights for LGBTQ+ and transgender people, and raising awareness of gender identity issues.

    Parents are free to believe what they want about these issues, and are free to teach their children whatever they want to teach them. But under the rule of law, no one--least of all the state--gets to deny the rights of others simply because those rights offend your delicate religious or moral sensibilities.

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Connecticut, of the newer England.
    Posts
    13,056

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Which may well leave the kids with failed exam results and limited access to college. Yes?
    Yes, but until we rob parents of the freedom to prioritize football practice ahead of homework this is where we are.
    "Visionary" is he who in every egg sees a carbonara.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Connecticut, of the newer England.
    Posts
    13,056

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    I get where you're coming from, but I disagree. When have the poor and people of modest means ever enjoyed equal freedom?

    We have the freedom to choose whatever methods of transportation we want to. That fact implies no guarantee that I will be able to have a private Lear jet so I can have freedom that is "equal" to the freedom enjoyed by the wealthy.

    We have the freedom to choose whatever methods of education we want for our children. Again, that's not a guarantee that I send my children to private boarding school to be "equal" with those wealthy enough to afford it.

    Tom
    OK but why frame the argument on terms which give the opposition such a convenient off-ramp?
    My point was that if you take alternative means of education (and money) out of the equation you still have a very compelling argument.
    "Visionary" is he who in every egg sees a carbonara.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    East Quogue,NY
    Posts
    25,814

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Not by our Department of Education, who sets the standards.
    If little Tin Pot England can do it, anyone can.


    Unless being little and tin pot are the proximate causes that make it possible.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    59,408

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    There is no "right" (parental or otherwise) being infringed by public schools' support of equal rights for LGBTQ+ and transgender people, and raising awareness of gender identity issues.

    Parents are free to believe what they want about these issues, and are free to teach their children whatever they want to teach them. But under the rule of law, no one--least of all the state--gets to deny the rights of others simply because those rights offend your delicate religious or moral sensibilities.

    Tom
    Just so, just as that bigoted Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis got into hot water for refusing to issue licenses to gay couples.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    59,408

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    Unless being little and tin pot are the proximate causes that make it possible.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    No, it is more about having a government who (usually) cares about The General Welfare, whereas yours is prevented from doing so by off the wall interpretations of various amendments.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Bainbridge Island WA
    Posts
    5,197

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Which may well leave the kids with failed exam results and limited access to college. Yes?
    Yes.

    It is an unfortunate side effect of our strong sense of parental rights that some children will face a lifetime of struggle because of their parent's belief system.
    Steve

    If you would have a good boat, be a good guy when you build her - honest, careful, patient, strong.
    H.A. Calahan

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,855

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Figment View Post
    This is where your otherwise sensible argument goes off the rails, for me anyway. The other options for parents to meet their educational obligations present such an economic burden that this immediately becomes a situation in which those of poor or modest means do not enjoy equal freedom.
    One class of parents gets education for their children according to their values, at tax-payer expense. A different class of parents pays the same taxes but gets no education for their children in return.

    It doesn't matter how many dollars a guy in the second class had when you took them. What matters is that they were his.

    Quote Originally Posted by Figment View Post
    I prefer to argue on the basis that if one objects to aspects of a school's curriculum one is free to teach the preferred perspective of that issue at home. Sex education, gender equality, evolution, flat-earth... whatever. If it's such a core-value of your religious or cultural system it shouldn't be such a stretch to reinforce what you're probably already upholding at home.
    That's already the case; an exercise of the same parental right.

    Here's how it stacks up: the state wants to teach Social Value X. A parent objects on religious grounds. That objection can be overcome if the state provides an accomodation. Home schooling is an accomodation. But required curriculum is an issue in school or at home. Simply allowing for home schooling, without more, produces the absurd situation where the parent is required to teach his child objectionable material himself, on his own time, on his own dime, as well as paying for others to teach it to others. Accomodation must accomodate the religious freedom objection, not just move it from the school to the home.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Wrocław, Poland
    Posts
    13,520

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    One class of parents gets education for their children according to their values, at tax-payer expense. A different class of parents pays the same taxes but gets no education for their children in return.
    Wrong. Dead wrong.

    One class of parents gets education for their children according to the rights and protections guaranteed for all citizens by the rule of law in a secular state whose Constitution expressly prohibits legislation that establishes or prohibits any religion whatsoever. The other class of parents gets exactly the same.

    No accommodation is required, since the right to practice one's religion is not infringed in any way.

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Wrocław, Poland
    Posts
    13,520

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Here's how it stacks up: the state wants to teach Social Value X. A parent objects on religious grounds.
    And the state replies "Too bad. Social Value X is embedded in the Constitution. Believe what you want. But what you believe has nothing to do with what gets taught in our public schools."

    Tom
    Last edited by WI-Tom; 09-30-2022 at 01:09 PM.
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    59,408

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    One class of parents gets education for their children according to their values, at tax-payer expense. A different class of parents pays the same taxes but gets no education for their children in return.

    It doesn't matter how many dollars a guy in the second class had when you took them. What matters is that they were his.



    That's already the case; an exercise of the same parental right.

    Here's how it stacks up: the state wants to teach Social Value X. A parent objects on religious grounds. That objection can be overcome if the state provides an accomodation. Home schooling is an accomodation. But required curriculum is an issue in school or at home. Simply allowing for home schooling, without more, produces the absurd situation where the parent is required to teach his child objectionable material himself, on his own time, on his own dime, as well as paying for others to teach it to others. Accomodation must accomodate the religious freedom objection, not just move it from the school to the home.
    With rights come responsibilities, yes?
    You are arguing for an unfettered right to irresponsibly screw up future adult citizens of the US.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Central Coast, Ca
    Posts
    35,446

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    Some here might benefit from a bit of Peyote...

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    2 states: NJ and confusion
    Posts
    44,053

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    This.

    Classic demonstration of another example of The Law of Unintended Consequences built into the US Constitution.
    All children/young people should have access to the best education that the nation can provide.
    Same-sex couples should not be discriminated against because of religious bigotry.
    Facts are facts, whether one likes them or not. People make mistakes. Government makes mistakes. We can't learn from those mistakes if we don't learn OF those mistakes.

    Freedom of religion is freedom to practice, not impose.
    "Banning books and not guns seems backwards. Can't think of anyone ever shot by a book

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Wrocław, Poland
    Posts
    13,520

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    pays the same taxes but gets no education for their children in return.

    It doesn't matter how many dollars a guy in the second class had when you took them. What matters is that they were his.
    ...
    the absurd situation where the parent is required to teach his child objectionable material himself, on his own time, on his own dime, as well as paying for others to teach it to others.
    The old right-wing/libertarian "taxes are an evil government over-reach" nonsense is not far beneath the surface of these remarks.

    Public education is a public good. Everyone benefits, whether you have children attending public schools or not. Thus, everyone pays taxes to support them.

    That some parents like and support public schools, and others do not, and still others have no children in the schools at all, matters not a bit.

    The tax burden is shared because the benefits accrue to all.

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 1999
    Location
    Norwalk, Ohio
    Posts
    34,728

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    ^
    Correct. I have no children yet I must pay taxes to support public schools. I do not mind. Why? Because with my tax dollars I am buying civilization. To argue that I derive no benefit from the public schools is absurd. And it is anarchic.
    "I'll tell you why [religion's] not a scam. In my opinion, all right? Tide goes in, tide goes out. Never a miscommunication. You can't explain that."Bill O'Reilly

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    59,408

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    ^ The same applies to roads and a National Health Service.

    You know it makes sense.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    victoria, australia. (1 address now)
    Posts
    71,411

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    #25,
    Just what I reckon PM, having a child gives you a responsibility, not ownership.

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,855

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    ^
    Correct. I have no children yet I must pay taxes to support public schools. I do not mind. Why? Because with my tax dollars I am buying civilization. To argue that I derive no benefit from the public schools is absurd. And it is anarchic.
    But it's not the argument. The argument is that those with one set of religious beliefs gets something in addition, that those with different beliefs don't.

    Further, they're not merely parting with the money, they're losing the right to have their children educated according to the parents' values.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    59,408

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    But it's not the argument. The argument is that those with one set of religious beliefs gets something in addition, that those with different beliefs don't.

    Further, they're not merely parting with the money, they're losing the right to have their children educated according to the parents' values.
    How are they losing the ability to have their children taught their parents values? Is there a gap in the US market that no one has filled yet?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Wrocław, Poland
    Posts
    13,520

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    But it's not the argument. The argument is that those with one set of religious beliefs gets something in addition, that those with different beliefs don't.

    Further, they're not merely parting with the money, they're losing the right to have their children educated according to the parents' values.
    Consistency is not a virtue when you are consistently wrong.

    Both sets of parents in your simplistic scenario get the same education for their children. It's just that one set likes it and one doesn't. Too bad.

    Neither set of parents have lost any right to practice their religion or provide instruction to their own children.

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,855

    Default Re: Amish Peyote Scalia Shumer Hatch Same Sex Marriage School Bathrooms

    What was the doctrine before the Peyote Case, and will be again if the Peyote Case is overruled, does not mean that merely asserting a claim of denial of freedom of religious practice automatically exempts the claimant from the law. You can't just say it. If you want an exemption, you have to prove entitlement to it, in court; and the standards are fairly high.

    The State's apprehension of a flood of other religious claims is purely speculative. Almost half the States, and the Federal Government, have maintained an exemption for religious peyote use for many years, and apparently have not found themselves overwhelmed by claims to other religious exemptions. [fn 8]

    Allowing an exemption for religious peyote use would not necessarily oblige the State to grant a similar exemption to other religious groups. The unusual circumstances that make the religious use of peyote compatible with the State's interests in health and safety and in preventing drug trafficking would not apply to other religious claims. Some religions, for example, might not restrict drug use to a limited ceremonial context, as does the Native American Church. See, e.g., Olsen, 279 U.S.App.D.C., at 7, 878 F.2d at 1464 ("the Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church . . . teaches that marijuana is properly smoked ‘continually all day'").
    - -
    [fn 8] Over the years, various sects have raised free exercise claims regarding drug use. In no reported case, except those involving claims of religious peyote use, has the claimant prevailed.

    Employment Division v. Smith
    Sandra Day O'Connor, concurring in the judgment

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremec...94_US_872fn2/9
    IOW there is to be no blanket denial of free exercise claims. This is an instance where the "liberal" and "conservative" wings of the Court agree; which is a strong indication of the depth of the moral value made law in the First Amendment. And implicitly a judgment that Justice Scalia, "Mr. Originalist", was wrong, at least in this case, in his interpretation the origins.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •