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Thread: Is the DNC pushing too hard on the abortion issue?

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Is the DNC pushing too hard on the abortion issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wine47 View Post
    Why would "Society" outweigh the desire of the Mother. Do you think I should decide your outcomes?
    The government already regulates your health care telling you that this treatment or that drug is not the recommended treatment and pulling the license of a doctor who breaks the rules. It will go after parents who won't allow necessary medical treatment for their children, arrest polygamists despite their marriage being consensual, tell you that you can't use certain drugs for recreation,...

    The government will mandate that your kids go to school, or require you to educate them at home to approved standards. Your town may even tell you that you can't keep a half dozen broken down cars in your front yard even though it's your front yard. It will require that any changes to your house be inspected even though it's your house.

    Why are you surprised?
    Last edited by CWSmith; 09-28-2022 at 06:43 PM.
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  2. #37
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    Default Re: Is the DNC pushing too hard on the abortion issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wine47 View Post
    Why would "Society" outweigh the desire of the Mother. Do you think I should decide your outcomes?
    I agree with you. And I don't accept that society should decide my outcomes.

    Those - who accept society should have control, have to deal with disappointment when society's decisions do not agree with their personal decisions. That disappointment is obvious when abortion is considered.
    Life is complex.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Is the DNC pushing too hard on the abortion issue?

    FWIW, I think very few people would argue against some kind of reasonable regulation of abortion after a certain point in fetal development, restricting it to legitimate medical reasons, as was the case before the recent court decision.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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  4. #39
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    Default Re: Is the DNC pushing too hard on the abortion issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    FWIW, I think very few people would argue against some kind of reasonable regulation of abortion after a certain point in fetal development, restricting it to legitimate medical reasons, as was the case before the recent court decision.
    And I think a great many would argue that it's a private decision before that certain point in fetal development.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

    "Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." - Will Rogers

    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - Groucho Marx

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Is the DNC pushing too hard on the abortion issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wine47 View Post
    Why would "Society" outweigh the desire of the Mother. Do you think I should decide your outcomes?
    It's laid out clearly in the opinion.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

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  6. #41
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    Default Re: Is the DNC pushing too hard on the abortion issue?

    There's been a substantial rise among women getting fitted for IUDs and implants even if they aren't sexually active.
    "Be curious, not judgmental." - (Misattributed to Walt Whitman as recalled by) Ted Lasso

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Is the DNC pushing too hard on the abortion issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    The government will mandate that your kids go to school, or require you to educate them at home to approved standards. Your town may even tell you that you can't keep a half dozen broken down cars in your front yard even though it's your front yard. It will require that any changes to your house be inspected even though it's your house.

    Why are you surprised?
    The conflict between the individual and the group is what much of government, if not all of it, is about. In the case of abortion, on top of all that, there is the giant problem of when does the fetus become a legal person, having its own interest. Past that point, there are three interests to accomodate.

    Lines must be drawn. That has to be recognized before they can be drawn.

    The GOP takes the position that they mustn't be. Others say, the lines should be drawn here, or there, but that is another question.

    Democrats need to push on the prior question. If you lose on that, it's the ball game, which is why Republicans wound up there.
    Last edited by Osborne Russell; 09-29-2022 at 10:25 AM.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

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  8. #43
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    Default Re: Is the DNC pushing too hard on the abortion issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    The conflict between the individual and the group is what much of government, if not all of it, is about. In the case of abortion, on top of all that, there is the giant problem of when does the fetus become a legal person, having its own interest. Past that point, there are three interests to accomodate.

    Lines must be drawn. That has to be recognized before they can be drawn.

    The GOP takes the position that they mustn't be. Others say, the lines should be drawn here, or there, but that is another question.

    Democrats need to push on the prior question. If you lose on that, it's the ball game, which is why Republicans wound up there.
    And science cannot state when life begins. It's a matter of opinion, religion, etc. This problem is not going away.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

    "Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." - Will Rogers

    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - Groucho Marx

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Is the DNC pushing too hard on the abortion issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    And science cannot state when life begins.
    Very important point. It doesn't even try, really. It maps the stages for different purposes. "When does a caterpillar become a moth?" is not approached as a moral question.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    It's a matter of opinion, religion, etc. This problem is not going away.
    Nope.

    1. Decide if lines should be drawn. No ducking it.
    2. Then draw them.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Is the DNC pushing too hard on the abortion issue?

    Again, 'alive', is not the critical distinction. Pretty much everything we eat was once alive.

    Nor is 'viable', because that's technology-dependent. If we knew enough, we could take a fertilized egg and grow it into a baby with no uterus involved. Someday we probably will.

    The question is when a blob of cells becomes a human being, worthy of the protection of the law. I'd propose when higher brain function starts, about six months in, which more or less corresponds to 'viability' without advanced technology.

    None of this will make the slightest impression on the folks who think that a blastocyst should have all the rights of a citizen.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Is the DNC pushing too hard on the abortion issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    None of this will make the slightest impression on the folks who think that a blastocyst should have all the rights of a citizen.
    But it may make an impression on the "independents". They hesitate to deny the mother's interests entirely. It seems inhuman.

    There are conflicting interests. The problem isn't solved by merely cancelling one of them, as it is proposed to be done to parents claiming the right of not having their children educated contrary to their religion. The parents' interest is not cancellable.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Is the DNC pushing too hard on the abortion issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    But it may make an impression on the "independents". They hesitate to deny the mother's interests entirely.
    Indeed - although of larger political significance may be turnout among young people, people realizing that their or their partner's ability to get an abortion is no longer safe from zealots, and deciding they damn well better go vote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    . . . as it is proposed to be done to parents claiming the right of not having their children educated contrary to their religion. The parents' interest is not cancellable.
    Eh? Hmmm . . 'it is proposed' by whom? Exactly how? Whose kids? Hardcore traditionalist Wahhabi Muslims? Ultra-Orthodox Jews? Fundamentalist Christians? Will all respect, it is simply not possible to educate children in anything like a modern western egalitarian scientific rationalist way and not teach them many things that are contrary to somebody's religion. Girls can wear shorts at school, and play with the boys at recess? Evolution, the fundamental principle of biology? The earth is some 4.5 billion years old? Tough. You don't like it, then homeschool and teach your kids whatever flaming nonsense you like.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 09-29-2022 at 01:46 PM.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Is the DNC pushing too hard on the abortion issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    You don't like it, then homeschool and teach your kids whatever flaming nonsense you like.
    Except the fundamentalists are doing a pretty good job of getting the rest of us to fund their religious schools. The NYT has done some interesting work exposing the lack of basic education in some of the ultra-orthodox yeshivas receiving state funding.

    Public funding of religious schools is worthy of a thread...but it could get ugly fast
    Steve

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  14. #49
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    Default Re: Is the DNC pushing too hard on the abortion issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Eh? Hmmm . . 'it is proposed' by whom? Exactly how?
    By you and Wi-Tom on the other thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    You don't like it, then homeschool and teach your kids whatever flaming nonsense you like.
    But education to state standards is compulsory either way, and to force parents to pay for it out of pocket arguably denies them equal protection.

    Many of these free exercise of religion claims are going to fail, when the actual religious conviction is looked into. You have to prove it, not merely assert it. Qanon may not do. But they have to be looked into, is my point. In many cases, some reasonable accomodation can be worked out -- provided it is looked into.

    New thread.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

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    Default Re: Is the DNC pushing too hard on the abortion issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    By you and Wi-Tom on the other thread.
    You are mistaken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    But education to state standards is compulsory either way, and to force parents to pay for it out of pocket arguably denies them equal protection.
    "Arguably?" Then argue it. I'm certainly not convinced of that whatsoever. What have you got that's persuasive?

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  16. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wine47 View Post
    We are talking about abortion here - Not child support!


    A couple discovers the woman is pregnant. The man advises neither of them can afford a child. The woman has the child anyway.

    Thats her right.

    Then she applies for child support, which she will be awarded.

    The man has no right to refuse to support that child that he advised be aborted.

    The issues are intertwined.


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