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Thread: US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

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    Default US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

    So I was getting all statistical and geeky this morning with data on who believes the Qanon bullsh!t, and I stumbled on something that provoked one of those 'DUH!' forehead-slapping moments. Very valuable, they are, since understanding something new or correcting a misconception is an excellent thing.

    I've been a bit mystified for a long time why anyone whose ancestors ever lived in the Spanish Empire (except possibly Cubans) would vote for Republicans, and particularly for Trump. The ideas I've managed to come up with - cultural conservatism, Latin American fondness for strongmen, caudillos, tolerance of even liking for Trump's machismo (even if fake) - seemed insufficient. And then when I was posting the Qanon data it hit me. There are three religious groups that have a high percentage of Qanon believers, about 1.5X the national average: White evangelicals, Mormons, and Hispanic Protestants.

    Now I tend to think of Hispanic folks as Catholics; the state religion of the Spanish Empire, you know? But it's not that simple. There's a substantial and increasing (at least until recently) fraction of US Hispanics (and not just in the US) who are Protestant, and they tend to be overwhelmingly evangelical; Methodists or Presbyterians named Hernandez are a lot less common. And the single factor that correlates best with support for Trump, and extreme right-wing politics in general, is evangelical protestantism (unless you're black, that's another thing altogether). All the talk lately about increasing Republican support among Latinos is really another example of a larger phenomenon among evangelicals in general. Well, DUH.

    I'm coming to believe that the more extreme varieties of evangelical protestantism are utterly vile and loathsome, a plague upon our country, and that we'd be a lot better off if there were a benevolent creator who would Rapture these folks off to somewhere else and leave the rest of us here to work things out.




    Some analysis here, and the source for the charts.


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    Default Re: US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

    And just for amusement, another map on which you can make out the borders of the Confederacy! (A tangent, I realize).


    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    I'm coming to believe that the more extreme varieties of evangelical protestantism are utterly vile and loathsome, a plague upon our country...
    You're more than 30 years behind me in reaching this conclusion. But I had the benefit of being raised in a right-wing evangelical protestant tradition.

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    Default Re: US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    . . . I had the benefit of being raised in a right-wing evangelical protestant tradition.
    My condolences. But it did give you something good and solid to rebel against, I suppose. Mainline or slightly liberal Methodist in my case, although I've left that far behind.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

    I knew in primary-school, instictively I think, that it was all smoke and mirrors.

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    Default Re: US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

    had the benefit of being raised in a right-wing evangelical protestant tradition.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    My condolences. But it did give you something good and solid to rebel against, I suppose. Mainline or slightly liberal Methodist in my case, although I've left that far behind.
    Really, condolences are only appropriate for those who choose to remain in that tradition as adults. Some of my best friends fit that mold.

    But I'd say the experience itself has been invaluable. First, it was an amazing education in Biblical traditions and texts--as in, we had to memorize large chunks of the Bible. That alone has been a huge asset--access to a shared font of cultural knowledge that echoes throughout so much of Western literature. You need a working knowledge of Shakespeare, and the Bible, to really be plugged in to the themes and allusions of some of our major writers.

    Second, it was an inside look at how apparently good people can believe things that look so hateful, even spiteful, from the outside. It's a little bit of empathy building. A look at how the people within a terrible institution are almost always better than the institution itself, and tend to be blind to that institution's flaws--and fail to see that where they themselves ARE good, they are often in contradiction of what the institution officially promotes.

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    Default Re: US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

    Maybe they like good Conservative values like family units, kids not being coerced to decide their gender by their elementary school teacher, or who actually like "he/she", and "Stay the hell out of daughter's bathroom dude!"

    But you go ahead and figure it out your way. Just know it's no always so deep.
    “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”― Mark Twain,


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    Default Re: US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Maybe they like good Conservative values like family units, kids not being coerced to decide their gender by their elementary school teacher, or who actually like "he/she", and "Stay the hell out of daughter's bathroom dude!"

    But you go ahead and figure it out your way. Just know it's no always so deep.
    If you read my post, you know I've seen those "good Conservative values" from the inside AND the outside. I'm not speaking from ignorance. I think you've nailed it--nothing "deep" about it at all.

    It's mostly just fear of recognizing (but not being able to admit) that the "truth" they believe is not a universal one. That's very very scary for many people.

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    Default Re: US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Really, condolences are only appropriate for those who choose to remain in that tradition as adults. Some of my best friends fit that mold.

    But I'd say the experience itself has been invaluable. First, it was an amazing education in Biblical traditions and texts--as in, we had to memorize large chunks of the Bible. That alone has been a huge asset--access to a shared font of cultural knowledge that echoes throughout so much of Western literature. You need a working knowledge of Shakespeare, and the Bible, to really be plugged in to the themes and allusions of some of our major writers.

    Second, it was an inside look at how apparently good people can believe things that look so hateful, even spiteful, from the outside. It's a little bit of empathy building. A look at how the people within a terrible institution are almost always better than the institution itself, and tend to be blind to that institution's flaws--and fail to see that where they themselves ARE good, they are often in contradiction of what the institution officially promotes.

    Tom
    I think that BOTH of you are delusional. Atheism is responsible for the largest mass murders, worldwide, in the last 100 years. An estimated 120 million.

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    Default Re: US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabeau View Post
    I think that BOTH of you are delusional. Atheism is responsible for the largest mass murders, worldwide, in the last 100 years. An estimated 120 million.
    FYI, you are the only one to have mentioned atheism on this thread, which is specifically addressing the extreme branches of one particular brand of protestant Christianity, which is only one religion of many in the world:

    I'm coming to believe that the more extreme varieties of evangelical protestantism are utterly vile and loathsome
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    Default Re: US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

    The religious have not the capacity to deal with athiesim as an absence. They alway see it as a presence.

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    Default Re: US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Maybe they like good Conservative values like family units, kids not being coerced to decide their gender by their elementary school teacher, or who actually like "he/she", and "Stay the hell out of daughter's bathroom dude!"

    But you go ahead and figure it out your way. Just know it's no always so deep.

    What a load of soil amendment! Conservative values like "family units", as if conservative christian are the only ones that hold such values when in fact divorce rates are infinitely higher in good conservative christian places like West Virginia - 13.20%, Oklahoma - 13.10%, Florida - 13.00%, Kentucky - 13.00%, Arkansas - 12.90%

    Lowest divorce rates can be found in these states, and if you do the math you will see that the percentages are half of those in some of the so-called conservative states.

    1. Maine - 4.8
    2. District of Columbia - 4.8
    3. South Dakota - 6.0
    4. Pennsylvania - 6.1
    5. New York - 6.1
    6. Illinois - 6.2
    7. New Jersey - 6.3
    8. Iowa - 6.3
    9. Wisconsin - 6.4
    10. Massachusetts - 6.4

    More than half of the states with the lowest divorce rates are located in the northeastern part of the United States. Maine and D.C. are tied for the lowest rate at 4.8.

    I've lots of nieces and nephews and not one of them ever had an elementary school teacher coerce their gender choice. But you keep on believing that horse hockey B-Dub if it helps you sleep at night, and so many here claimed you were once reasonable, must have been in another century.

    And if you're wondering about divorce in Alaska, best be careful, the numbers aren't too promising.

    Alaska (4.4 Divorces Per 1,000 People)
    Alaska is the 49th state in the Union, the fifth least-populated, and the eighth-highest for divorce rates. Its motto is “North to the Future,” but a future is precisely what many marriages in the state are unlikely to have. It experiences 4.4 divorces for every 1,000 people.
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    Default Re: US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    But I'd say the experience itself has been invaluable. First, it was an amazing education in Biblical traditions and texts . . .
    Definitely. I had a fair bit of that myself, and being familiar with something that's so deep in the culture is indeed helpful.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Second, it was an inside look at how apparently good people can believe things that look so hateful, even spiteful, from the outside. It's a little bit of empathy building. A look at how the people within a terrible institution are almost always better than the institution itself, and tend to be blind to that institution's flaws--and fail to see that where they themselves ARE good, they are often in contradiction of what the institution officially promotes.
    Now that, good sir, is a spectacular example of growing a beautiful garden using the manure as fertilizer. Well done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabeau View Post
    Atheism is responsible for the largest mass murders, worldwide, in the last 100 years.
    Oh, please, not that old canard again. Nobody's defending Communism, and the idea of blaming official atheism for the crimes of a movement that closely resembled a dogmatic religion is simply pathetic. Well, one way or another, it's an excellent thing that old-style communists are an endangered species.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 09-25-2022 at 09:54 AM.
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    Default Re: US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    I knew in primary-school, instictively I think, that it was all smoke and mirrors.
    I just quit going (to "Sunday School"), because

    1. Even with much effort, it made no sense.
    2. The sun was shining, I had a new mitt, and I wanted to play softball.
    3. My parents didn't even notice. No thunderbolts struck.

    I ran into it again later, in college. I thought, "Oh yeah, this bull S. I remember. What? It's still going on? No kidding? How stupid. "

    Show some empathy for that.
    Last edited by Osborne Russell; 09-25-2022 at 09:59 AM.
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    Default Re: US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin T View Post
    What a load of soil amendment! Conservative values like "family units", as if conservative christian are the only ones that hold such values when in fact divorce rates are infinitely higher in good conservative christian places like West Virginia - 13.20%, Oklahoma - 13.10%, Florida - 13.00%, Kentucky - 13.00%, Arkansas - 12.90%

    Lowest divorce rates can be found in these states, and if you do the math you will see that the percentages are half of those in some of the so-called conservative states.

    1. Maine - 4.8
    2. District of Columbia - 4.8
    3. South Dakota - 6.0
    4. Pennsylvania - 6.1
    5. New York - 6.1
    6. Illinois - 6.2
    7. New Jersey - 6.3
    8. Iowa - 6.3
    9. Wisconsin - 6.4
    10. Massachusetts - 6.4

    More than half of the states with the lowest divorce rates are located in the northeastern part of the United States. Maine and D.C. are tied for the lowest rate at 4.8.

    I've lots of nieces and nephews and not one of them ever had an elementary school teacher coerce their gender choice. But you keep on believing that horse hockey B-Dub if it helps you sleep at night, and so many here claimed you were once reasonable, must have been in another century.

    And if you're wondering about divorce in Alaska, best be careful, the numbers aren't too promising.

    Alaska (4.4 Divorces Per 1,000 People)
    Alaska is the 49th state in the Union, the fifth least-populated, and the eighth-highest for divorce rates. Its motto is “North to the Future,” but a future is precisely what many marriages in the state are unlikely to have. It experiences 4.4 divorces for every 1,000 people.
    I was going to say that divorce rates are lowest where there are cold winters , but Alaska killed that joke.

    Seriously, the alignment between the states with the most "conservative" voting records have the most liberal gun laws, the highest violent crime rates, some of the lowest education numbers, some of the lowest income levels,... and the list goes on.

    The true conservative value today is "You can't get yours unless I get mine and I never have enough." That central value dictates everything from education to health to crime and they are all linked. Divorce is just one minor stat in an avalanche of under-performance.
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    Default Re: US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Maybe they like good Conservative values like family units, kids not being coerced to decide their gender by their elementary school teacher, or who actually like "he/she", and "Stay the hell out of daughter's bathroom dude!"
    That's part of my point. Voting based on that kind of thing correlates very well with evangelical protestantism. The subset of evangelicals who are Protestant are largely evangelical, with ideas and voting patterns similar to other evangelicals, and tending to be different from other Latinos. I obviously disagree with them, although Tom managed to at least partially bring me back to my better self, but the patterns are objective facts, like them or not.
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    Default Re: US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Maybe they like good Conservative values like family units, kids not being coerced to decide their gender by their elementary school teacher, or who actually like "he/she", and "Stay the hell out of daughter's bathroom dude!"

    But you go ahead and figure it out your way. Just know it's no always so deep.
    Brian, it's as deep as it goes. The interest of the parent in the education, socialization, etc of their child, the intervention of the state in conflict with the parent's interest, all of it -- is comprised in one word: liberty. The interest of the parent in their child is right up there with the parent's interest in themselves. How could one say one has "a property" (In john Locke's term" but not in one's children? Parents sacrifice their interest in what they perceive as the child's best interest. Sacrifice their own life. That is the fundamental, and the depth of the reality. The interest of society comes second, at best. Never give that up. Become accustomed to thinking of it and stating it that way, because that is the way it is. Liberty. Liberty has a substance, it means something that majority vote cannot erase.

    Then consider this: reproductive freedom is liberty, also. Broaden your view. Liberty for all.

    It's not conservative; it's liberal. Not liberal like the Democratic Party. For real.
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    Default Re: US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Now I tend to think of Hispanic folks as Catholics; the state religion of the Spanish Empire, you know? But it's not that simple.
    One thought that the fatalism was the worst of it. Maybe it is. What's worse, Catholic fatalism or Evangelical fatalism?
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    Default Re: US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Brian, it's as deep as it goes. The interest of the parent in the education, socialization, etc of their child, the intervention of the state in conflict with the parent's interest, all of it -- is comprised in one word: liberty. The interest of the parent in their child is right up there with the parent's interest in themselves. How could one say one has "a property" (In john Locke's term" but not in one's children? Parents sacrifice their interest in what they perceive as the child's best interest. Sacrifice their own life. That is the fundamental, and the depth of the reality. The interest of society comes second, at best. Never give that up. Become accustomed to thinking of it and stating it that way, because that is the way it is. Liberty. Liberty has a substance, it means something that majority vote cannot erase.

    Then consider this: reproductive freedom is liberty, also. Broaden your view. Liberty for all.

    It's not conservative; it's liberal. Not liberal like the Democratic Party. For real.
    Hmm... Brian isn't talking about liberty, OR. He is talking about wanting a society that recognizes HIS choices as the only valid choices. Schools must teach what HE believes, and must AVOID teaching anything he doesn't believe.

    That's "conservative" all right, in the sense of being against any change. "Reactionary" is probably a better description. "Anti-liberal" in the sense you use "liberal."

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    Default Re: US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    One thought that the fatalism was the worst of it. Maybe it is. What's worse, Catholic fatalism or Evangelical fatalism?
    A smallish bit of fatalism is helpful, not too much. There are far worse things.

    And Tom's quite right; that kind of reactionary thinking correlates very weil with Evangelical Protestantism today. In previous times sometimes with the Catholic church, sometimes with Calvinism, sometimes with other religions or ideas, but in our present time, mostly fundamentalism.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 09-25-2022 at 11:36 AM.
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    Default Re: US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Hmm... Brian isn't talking about liberty, OR.
    Yes he is. He's making his claim. It has a basis in particular law and morality.
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    Default Re: US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Yes he is. He's making his claim. It has a basis in particular law and morality.
    You've misunderstood him. He is talking about HIM getting to choose what gets taught in the U.S. public schools, and what does not, according to his own personal cultural and religious values. Imposing his values and beliefs on others. That is the opposite of liberty.

    What he is talking about has NO basis in the law or morality upon which the U.S. was founded.

    In his autobiography, Jefferson recounted with satisfaction that in the struggle to pass his landmark Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom (1786), the Virginia legislature "rejected by a great majority" an effort to limit the bill's scope "in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan."
    Officials in Massachusetts were equally insistent that their influential Constitution of 1780 afforded "the most ample liberty of conscience … to Deists, Mahometans, Jews and Christians," a point that Chief Justice Theophilus Parsons resoundingly affirmed in 1810.
    That ordinary citizens shared these positive views is demonstrated by a petition of a group of citizens of Chesterfield County, Va., to the state assembly, Nov. 14, 1785: "Let Jews, Mehometans and Christians of every denomination enjoy religious liberty…thrust them not out now by establishing the Christian religion lest thereby we become our own enemys and weaken this infant state. It is mens labour in our Manufactories, their services by sea and land that aggrandize our Country and not their creeds. Chain your citizens to the state by their Interest. Let Jews, Mehometans, and Christians of every denomination find their advantage in living under your laws."
    SOURCE

    The U.S. was designed specifically as a NON-Christian nation. Not that it was intended to be hostile to Christianity, but that Christianity (and by implication any other religion) was to have no influence over the government, its laws, and the rights those laws were intended to protect.

    The attempt to impose one's beliefs on others the way Brian is talking about is entirely contrary to the law and morality of the U.S.

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    Default Re: US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

    Religions almost exclusively are top down authority organisations, the more dogmatic the more authoritarian. I imagine that colours their political attitudes and preferences as well.

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    Default Re: US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Religions almost exclusively are top down authority organisations, the more dogmatic the more authoritarian. I imagine that colours their political attitudes and preferences as well.
    Interestingly, evangelical protestantism , at least in the US, tends to NOT have a highly hierarchical organization at all, quite the opposite. Many evangelical churches are independent, they tend to split at the slightest provocation and form new ones, and the denominations that have central organizations are run pretty democratically. Not even vaguely like the Catholic church.
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    Default Re: US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

    Yeah, but within those little churches the organization is completely undemocratic. There's almost always a strong male figure at the top who makes all the decisions and all the money for the community.
    A society predicated on the assumption that everyone in it should want to get rich is not well situated to become either ethical or imaginative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elf View Post
    Yeah, but within those little churches the organization is completely undemocratic. There's almost always a strong male figure at the top who makes all the decisions and all the money for the community.
    Kind of like a tribe.
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    Default Re: US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

    I have found that fatalism is a very good tool for managing change, especially abrupt change.

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    Default Re: US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    You've misunderstood him. He is talking about HIM getting to choose what gets taught in the U.S. public schools, and what does not, according to his own personal cultural and religious values. Imposing his values and beliefs on others. That is the opposite of liberty.
    You've mischaracterized what he said. He's not imposing anything on anyone.
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    Default Re: US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    You've mischaracterized what he said. He's not imposing anything on anyone.
    Nope, I've understood him perfectly. But since you need a reminder, here is what he posted (numbers mine for comments below):

    [1]Maybe they like good Conservative values like family units, [2]kids not being coerced to decide their gender by their elementary school teacher, or [3]who actually like "he/she", and [3]"Stay the hell out of daughter's bathroom dude!"


    1. "family units" = heterosexual couple + children

    2. belief that heterosexual is "normal" and "good" and any other choice is morally flawed

    3. opposition to teaching alternate practices around identity issues--must stick with heteronormative practices

    4. opposition to transgender rights

    Those things are what Brian wants public schools to do, and what he does NOT want them to do. He wants them to teach and support only the things that he believes. Good old-fashioned heteronormative things. Things that his religion has taught him are morally correct. Even though many students in public schools have different beliefs. He wants to impose his narrow conservative right-wing heteronormative Christian beliefs on everyone attending public schools.

    Problem is, the U.S. was specifically founded to be a secular state, in which the government has no business supporting any particular religious agenda. Not even Brian W's.

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    Default Re: US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Nope, I've understood him perfectly. But since you need a reminder . . .
    OK, see you later!
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    Default Re: US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    OK, see you later!
    Glad to help!

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    62,286

    Default Re: US Latinos - Religion Explains Politics.

    Tom, you're in good form today. I was working on something along those lines about what Brian said, but you put it very clearly and better than what I was writing.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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