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Thread: Islam's George Floyd?

  1. #1
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    Default Islam's George Floyd?

    Or merely Iran's Rodney King?

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...a-amini-hijab/

    The protests started small, outside the Tehran hospital where a 22-year old Iranian woman named Mahsa Amini died last week after being detained by the “morality police” for an untold violation of the country’s harsh strictures on women’s dress. By Tuesday, the protests were racing across the country, in a burst of grief, anger and defiance. Many were led by women, who burned their headscarves, cut their hair and chanted, “Death to the dictator.”

    The ferocity of the protests is fueled by outrage over many things at once: the allegations that Amini was beaten in custody before she collapsed and fell into a coma; the priorities of Iran’s government, led by ultraconservative President Ebrahim Raisi, who has strictly enforced dress codes and empowered the hated morality police at a time of widespread economic suffering; and the anguish of Amini’s family, ethnic Kurds from a rural area of Iran, whose expressions of pain and shock have resonated across the country.
    "Morality Police", can you dig it? C'mon wokers, I want to hear it again: "Islamophobia!"

    In some cases, the Saudi religious police were broadly condemned in the country, including cases of breaking into private homes on suspicion of illicit behavior, and being staffed by "ex-convicts whose only job qualification was that they had memorized the Qur'an in order to reduce their sentences". Perhaps the most serious incident for which they were blamed was the 2002 Mecca girls' school fire, where fifteen girls died and fifty were injured after the mutaween prevented them from escaping a burning school, because the girls were not wearing headscarves and abayas (black robes), and not accompanied by a male guardian. The firemen who arrived to help were also beaten by the mutaween.

    -- wikipedia, Islamic Religious Police
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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    Alas, I fear that these courageous women and girls will be brutally treated by the regime.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    Interesting interview with one of the Iranian Morality Police:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-62984076

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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    C'mon wokers, I want to hear it again: "Islamophobia!"
    Oh, please. Show me one instance of someone 'woke' defending the Iranian morality police.

    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    I doubt this incident wil change the regime, but one can hope. It'll just result in more repression and a lot of deaths.

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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    Alas, I fear that these courageous women and girls will be brutally treated by the regime.
    "I can't breathe!"

    How did she wind up on a ventilator?
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Oh, please. Show me one instance of someone 'woke' defending the Iranian morality police.
    I'm providing the opportunity to denounce them.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Or merely Iran's Rodney King?


    "Morality Police", can you dig it? C'mon wokers, I want to hear it again: "Islamophobia!"
    It is not the religion, it is the old men who use it to oppress women. That happens everywhere. You would expect good comms and education to reduce that tendency, but in some nations even that does not reign in the old men.
    But you knew that.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    I seriously doubt you'll get anyone defending the morality police. Islam, like Christianity and every other major religion, has relatively benign parts and utterly wacko oppressive parts. These days, the oppressive parts of Islam are a lot worse.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    It was not that long ago that the US had their own morality police. They actually had "inspectors" who's job it was to measure hemlines on skirts, dresses, and swimming dresses to make sure they were not "indecent".
    "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito"

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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    Women protesting in Iran are heros.

    George Floyd was a criminal who did nothing heroic.
    “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”― Mark Twain,


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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Women protesting in Iran are heros.

    George Floyd was a criminal who did nothing heroic.
    He died a terrible and senseless death at the hands of a co-worker. It just happened to be caught on video and brought to light the systemic racism inherent in the system. There was no denying that officer Chauvin killed Floyd for no real reason. Sometimes you need to be a spark to ignite the fire, other times you just need to be the sacrificial tinder.
    "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito"

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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Women protesting in Iran are heros.

    George Floyd was a criminal who did nothing heroic.
    This. No relation to the treatment of the woman in Iran at all.

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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Women protesting in Iran are heros.

    George Floyd was a criminal who did nothing heroic.
    we don't know how heroic mahsa amini was, just that she belonged to an ethnic minority, and died in police custody, apparently for her defiance of law.

    the iranian protesters certainly run a higher risk than those protesting abusive police in the u.s., but the comparison is between the galvanizing aspect of the deaths, floyd and amini.

    your taking a shot at floyd, to characterize his victimization as somehow earned due to his status as a "criminal", is plain evidence of the prejudice at the heart of police abuse of power.

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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    Brian did not say GF deserved his death, only that his criminal activity, which was the cause of his arrest, is not the same as a woman arrested because her hair is exposed.

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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    There is absolutely nothing good about Saudi Arabia.
    Gerard>
    Albuquerque, NM

    Next election, vote against EVERY Republican, for EVERY office, at EVERY level. Be patriotic, save the country.

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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerarddm View Post
    There is absolutely nothing good about Saudi Arabia.
    Well, that may be so, but we are discussing Iran. I’d argue there are wonderful people in both, under oppressive regimes.

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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    This. No relation to the treatment of the woman in Iran at all.
    You define the terms as narrowly as you need to, to make sure they don't touch, let alone overlap. This prevents a view of the larger picture, which is: it is often amazing how people turn instantly from fatalism and servility to heroism, in the context of long oppression; and that is what ends the oppression.

    1. The woman beaten to death may not have been doing anything consciously much less intentionally heroic.
    2. Nevertheless she was beaten to death.
    3. She was who she was; George Floyd was who he was.
    4. It doesn't matter, it could have been you, is the point. They're dead; we're still here. What are we going to do? She's not us, because she's Iranian? Kurdish if it makes a difference. I say: she was human; she was us.

    If Americans had beaten her to death, in America, you'd be all over it. Since it was in Iran, you say: no relation. But, patriarchy knows no borders. Patriarchy is unconcerned with time, space, anything. Patriarchy asserts: all circumstances notwithstanding. Patriarchy styles itself as eternal truth. Our choices are two AKA binary:

    1. Yes
    2. No

    If you say yes, you get in bed with the mother F ers.
    If you say no, you take on a stupefying amount of cultural inertia.

    Don't blame me, it wasn't my idea.

    "Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country." Long live the rights of man. They take no account of time or space. They are inherent in the existence of the human. And it's the human that gets beaten to death, not the Iranian. Kurdish, apparently.

    Last edited by Osborne Russell; 09-23-2022 at 09:15 AM.
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  19. #19
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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    Lots of words but not much sense

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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by AndanteEd View Post
    Interesting interview with one of the Iranian Morality Police:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-62984076
    No interview, just a bit of history on Irans hijab policy.

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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    Brian did not say GF deserved his death, only that his criminal activity, which was the cause of his arrest, is not the same as a woman arrested because her hair is exposed.
    how is it not the same. you are the guy who touts the letter of the law. a woman exposing her hair is against the law in iran. who are you to judge which petty crime is more worthy of death at the hands of police?

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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    we don't know how heroic mahsa amini was, just that she belonged to an ethnic minority, and died in police custody, apparently for her defiance of law.

    the iranian protesters certainly run a higher risk than those protesting abusive police in the u.s., but the comparison is between the galvanizing aspect of the deaths, floyd and amini.

    your taking a shot at floyd, to characterize his victimization as somehow earned due to his status as a "criminal", is plain evidence of the prejudice at the heart of police abuse of power.
    Precisely.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    To put it another way, George Floyd wasn't offering up his neck to Officer Chauvin's knee in political protest. That's not the protest we join. Our protest is based on his rights as a man, which do not vary even if he was the worst scumbag petty criminal ever; which he wasn't, but that isn't the point. The point is that we insist upon a certain irreducible inviolable quantum of human dignity, all times, all places, all circumstances.

    Right?
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    Partial analogy. Both were killed unjustly by authorities for no good reason. Both deaths served as a precipitating event for large protests. Obviously the situation of women in Iran is worse than for black folks in Minneapolis, and it remains to be seen what will come of this, if anything.

    Oh, and while George Floyd was no saint, someone who has been arrested for alleged illegal activity is not a 'criminal'; innocent until proven guilty was still operative last I checked. If ever anyone deserved his punishment, it's Derek Chauvin (22.5 years under state law for murder, and 21 years for federal civil rights violations; link.)
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 09-23-2022 at 09:33 AM.
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    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Oh, and while George Floyd was no saint, someone who has been arrested for alleged illegal activity is not a 'criminal'; innocent until proven guilty was still operative last I checked.
    Irrelevant in any case. You cannot do it to the convicted any more than you can do it to the accused. Conviction may have a gamut of consequences; the limit is, it cannot extinguish human rights. And, conviction of what? Showing your hair? Showing your skin?

    No person shall be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of law.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Irrelevant in any case. You cannot do it to the convicted any more than you can do it to the accused. Conviction may have a gamut of consequences; the limit is, it cannot extinguish human rights.
    Exactly; I agree 100%

    I was referring to posts 11 and 13.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    how is it not the same. you are the guy who touts the letter of the law. a woman exposing her hair is against the law in iran. who are you to judge which petty crime is more worthy of death at the hands of police?
    Because I live in a western country and have also said it’s our responsibility to ignore and fight unjust laws. No rational person can defend theft as justifiable in regular western life, although it can be in certain circumstances. No rational person can defend a law that says a woman must cover her hair.

    The “letter of the law” line is yours, not mine.

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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    Yes, both died in police custody, and neither should have died, but there the similarities end. She was flouting an unjust law, he was filling his pockets. To compare the two is insulting.

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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    Yes, both died in police custody, and neither should have died, but there the similarities end. She was flouting an unjust law, he was filling his pockets. To compare the two is insulting.
    the comparison is not between the moral characters of the two victims. it is in the reaction of the people to abuse by authorities.

    what is insulting is brian's post, smearing the protest movement galvanized by floyd's death, with floyd's "criminality".

    george floyd's (alleged) criminal behavior before his arrest has eff all to do with the criminality of his murder by cop. or the worthiness of the cause that sprang from his murder.

    "it's all on the video", eh?

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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    gotta observe, decourcy, you seem to have some hostility towards george floyd.

    why is it "insulting" to compare the worth of floyd's human soul to that of mahsa amini?

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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    Yes, both died in police custody, and neither should have died, but there the similarities end. She was flouting an unjust law, he was filling his pockets. To compare the two is insulting.
    Insulting to whom?

    Both were human. Both were killed, in furtherance of ignorant bigotry. It's not a comparison; it's an identity. A unity.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    Because I live in a western country and have also said it’s our responsibility to ignore and fight unjust laws. No rational person can defend theft as justifiable in regular western life, although it can be in certain circumstances. No rational person can defend a law that says a woman must cover her hair.

    The “letter of the law” line is yours, not mine.
    Nobody's justifying theft. Take George in -- properly, according to long-established police procedures -- and let the law run it's course. Kneeling on his neck is outside all of that.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    gotta observe, decourcy, you seem to have some hostility towards george floyd.

    why is it "insulting" to compare the worth of floyd's human soul to that of mahsa amini?

    It’s insulting to a woman who died acting openly protesting oppressive laws to put her in the same sentence as a man undergoing arrest for yet another criminal activity for personal gain.

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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Nobody's justifying theft. Take George in -- properly, according to long-established police procedures -- and let the law run it's course. Kneeling on his neck is outside all of that.

    How many times to I have to say “he should not have died undergoing arrest” before I stop hearing that somehow I’m justifying his death?

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    Default Re: Islam's George Floyd?

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    gotta observe, decourcy, you seem to have some hostility towards george floyd.

    why is it "insulting" to compare the worth of floyd's human soul to that of mahsa amini?

    Is Putin’s “soul” worth that of Mahsa Amini? I’d say no and I’d hope you would as well. So then it’s just a matter of degree. And perhaps my tolerance for habitual criminals is lower than yours.

    So no, I have no particular hostility towards GF, but no particular love as well. I have far more respect for The lady in question though, and yes, I consider her more worthy of my respect.

    But of course, I don’t believe in a soul, and think the actions of a life actually matter.

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