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Thread: Molly Russell's inquest died from an act of self-harm while suffering from depression

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    Default Molly Russell's inquest died from an act of self-harm while suffering from depression

    I hope that this results in corporate responsibility winning out over corporate finances.
    Almost five years after she took her own life, the inquest into the death of teenager Molly Russell is due to begin.
    Molly, 14, killed herself in 2017 after viewing material about self-harm, suicide and depression, on social media sites such as Instagram and Pinterest.
    Her father Ian, a campaigner for online safety, hopes it is a turning point.
    "I hope that we will learn lessons and that it will help produce the change that's needed to keep people safe, to keep people alive," he told BBC News.
    Mr Russell, from Harrow, north-west London, believes long-term exposure to harmful material contributed to Molly's death.
    Molly's story provided fresh impetus for new legislation to regulate so-called big tech companies. The Online Safety Bill is still making its way through Parliament and is due a third reading in the Commons.

    Meta, which owns Instagram, and Pinterest are officially taking part in the inquest, which is due to last two weeks. It will hear evidence from executives from both companies, after they were ordered by the coroner to appear in person.
    Meta is likely to be questioned about a number of internal documents revealed by the former employee and whistleblower Frances Haugen. These include research carried out by the company into the impact of the platform on the mental health of young people.
    There is more: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62958851
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Molly Russell's inquest to put focus on big tech

    That's a good initiative, it's always useful to do everything you can to prevent suicide.
    These firms have the money and lawyers to evade accountability, but they should be held accountable.
    If necessary new laws should be made, it should hurt them as well.

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    Default Re: Molly Russell's inquest to put focus on big tech

    Maybe it is just time to eliminate all social media sites. They seem to do more harm than good. Lets all go back to newspapers and the nightly news for our information. I don't have a Facebook account, Instagram, Tik Tok etc. I do have a Linkedin account but that seems to me to be pretty different form the other sites.

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    Default Re: Molly Russell's inquest to put focus on big tech

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Maybe it is just time to eliminate all social media sites. They seem to do more harm than good. Lets all go back to newspapers and the nightly news for our information. I don't have a Facebook account, Instagram, Tik Tok etc. I do have a Linkedin account but that seems to me to be pretty different form the other sites.
    I suggest the single best thing social media could/should do is stop controlling (the algorithm) what, when, and how users see. Currently, each person sees a different 'feed' than others.. a feed based on what the media (meta) feels will best elicit the response they seek from that individual. In a sane world (hah! I made a funny!), that's called manipulation.

    'www.ted.com/talks/zeynep_tufekci_we_re_building_a_dystopia_just_to_m ake_people_click_on_ads'

    letting people choose feed priority (linear/latest comment/etc) as well as showing _all_ instead of algorithm selected comments/responses would change/eliminate many false perceptions.

    tldr; the problem is not social media, it is intentional, underhanded manipulation of people by social media.

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    Default Re: Molly Russell's inquest to put focus on big tech

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Maybe it is just time to eliminate all social media sites. They seem to do more harm than good. Lets all go back to newspapers and the nightly news for our information. I don't have a Facebook account, Instagram, Tik Tok etc. I do have a Linkedin account but that seems to me to be pretty different form the other sites.
    If people can refuse, no ban is called for. The people can eliminate them directly.
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    Default Re: Molly Russell's inquest to put focus on big tech

    Quote Originally Posted by Durnik View Post
    I suggest the single best thing social media could/should do is stop controlling (the algorithm) what, when, and how users see. Currently, each person sees a different 'feed' than others.. a feed based on what the media (meta) feels will best elicit the response they seek from that individual. In a sane world (hah! I made a funny!), that's called manipulation.

    'www.ted.com/talks/zeynep_tufekci_we_re_building_a_dystopia_just_to_m ake_people_click_on_ads'

    letting people choose feed priority (linear/latest comment/etc) as well as showing _all_ instead of algorithm selected comments/responses would change/eliminate many false perceptions.

    tldr; the problem is not social media, it is intentional, underhanded manipulation of people by social media.
    There is another problem.
    It is in my tag line.
    That is what the media money pumps should be blocking.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Molly Russell's inquest to put focus on big tech

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    If people can refuse, no ban is called for. The people can eliminate them directly.
    There are supposedly mature adults on here who can't stop reading lies and conspiracies.
    How do you expect an immature child with mental issues like depression to not read what is bad for them?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Molly Russell's inquest to put focus on big tech

    Make company owners, managers and directors personally responsible. None of this 'limited liability' rubbish.

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    Default Re: Molly Russell's inquest to put focus on big tech

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Make company owners, managers and directors personally responsible. None of this 'limited liability' rubbish.
    Our Health and Safety laws do that, going after the most senior, qualified decision makers.
    The executives of Meta will be testifying, and may find it hard going
    Meta, which owns Instagram, and Pinterest are officially taking part in the inquest, which is due to last two weeks. It will hear evidence from executives from both companies, after they were ordered by the coroner to appear in person.


    Meta is likely to be questioned about a number of internal documents revealed by the former employee and whistleblower Frances Haugen. These include research carried out by the company into the impact of the platform on the mental health of young people.


    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Molly Russell's inquest to put focus on big tech

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    There is another problem.
    It is in my tag line.
    That is what the media money pumps should be blocking.

    people posting bologna isn't the problem.

    social media sorting and feeding the bologna over and without other more calming posts is the problem.


    social media is _not_ an unbiased platform for interaction. modern social media intentionally controls the interactions to produce greater angst & involvement. that needs to stop. social media before zuck came along with his b.s. didn't produce anything like his produces now. I can't stress this enough.. letting people talk _unfiltered_ isn't the problem that filtering as it is done is.

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    Default Re: Molly Russell's inquest to put focus on big tech

    A senior executive at social media site Pinterest has said he is "sorry" for content viewed by a 14-year-old who took her own life after viewing it.

    Judson Hoffman admitted at an inquest that when Molly Russell was viewing the content on the platform in 2017, the site was not safe.
    Molly, from Harrow, north-west London, died in November 2017.
    Her father, Ian, earlier told North London Coroners' Court that social media was instrumental in her death.
    Mr Hoffman, Pinterest's global head of community operations, said he was "not able to answer" how children could agree to potentially being exposed to content inappropriate for a child.
    In the platform's terms of service, displayed to the court, users were asked to report "bad stuff" if they saw it on the site. The terms of service, from November 2016, said users might be exposed to material that was "inappropriate to children".
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-62991510
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Molly Russell's inquest to put focus on big tech

    Molly Russell, from Harrow, north-west London, engaged with numerous accounts referring to self-harm, depression or suicide before killing herself in 2017.

    The court heard how the platform recommended further content based on those views.

    Elizabeth Lagone, from Meta, which owns Instagram, defended their policies.

    Ms Lagone, head of health and well-being at the social media giant formerly known as Facebook, told the North London Coroner's Court that suicide and self-harm material could have been posted by a user as a "cry for help".

    She said it was an important consideration of the company, even in its policies at the time of Molly's death, to "consider the broad and unbelievable harm that can be done by silencing [an Instagram user's] struggles".

    Instagram's guidelines at the time, which were shown to the court, said users were allowed to post content about suicide and self-harm to "facilitate the coming together to support" other users but not if it "encouraged or promoted" this.

    Asked by the family's lawyer Oliver Sanders KC whether it was obvious it was not safe for children to see "graphic suicide imagery", the executive said: "I don't know… these are complicated issues."

    Mr Sanders drew the witness's attention to experts who had informed Meta it was not safe for children to view such material, before asking: "Had they previously told you something different?"

    Ms Lagone responded: "We have ongoing discussions with them but there are any number of… issues we talk about with them."



    Image source, PA Media

    Image caption, Elizabeth Lagone, Meta's head of health and well-being gave evidence at North London Coroner's Court

    Earlier, the inquest was shown footage Molly had liked or saved. The court, sitting in Barnet, was warned by coroner Andrew Walker the footage was "most distressing... it is almost impossible to watch".

    Mr Walker told the inquest there had been a discussion about whether to edit the videos before they were played.

    He added: "But Molly had no such choice, so we would in effect be editing the footage for adult viewing when it was available in an unedited form for a child."
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-62998484

    My bolding.
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    Default Re: Molly Russell's inquest to put focus on big tech

    By George, I think I've got it.

    Poster posts some bull S, OK.

    Platform promotes it, not OK.

    Is that it?
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    Default Re: Molly Russell's inquest to put focus on big tech

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    By George, I think I've got it.

    Poster posts some bull S, OK.

    Platform promotes it, not OK.

    Is that it?
    No. Not at all.
    Poster posts some really offensive content that encourage self harm and suicide. Not OK
    Platform algorithms flood your feed with more of the same. Most definitely not OK.
    The platform fails to clear out offensive content that enrage self harm and suicide. Not OK
    Earlier, the inquest was shown footage Molly had liked or saved. The court, sitting in Barnet, was warned by coroner Andrew Walker the footage was "most distressing... it is almost impossible to watch".
    Coroners deal with death all the time, natural, accidental, suicide and criminal acts, so are not easily distressed. This content fed into this child's feed was almost impossible to watch.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Molly Russell's inquest to put focus on big tech

    Instagram's spokesperson is not covering herself in glory.

    The inquest at North London Coroner's Court was told out of the 16,300 posts Molly saved, shared or liked on Instagram in the six-months before her death, 2,100 were depression, self-harm or suicide-related.Ms Lagone, the social media giant's head of health and wellbeing, was shown a number of them.
    The Russell family's lawyer, Oliver Sanders KC, asked of each post shown to her whether she believed they promoted or encouraged suicide or self-harm.
    She said she thought it "safe for people to be able to express themselves", but conceded two posts would have violated Instagram's policies.
    Instagram's guidelines at the time said users were allowed to post content about suicide and self-harm to "facilitate the coming together to support" other users but not if it "encouraged or promoted" this.
    Ms Lagone told the court she thought the content Molly saw was "nuanced and complicated", adding it was important to give people a voice if they were experiencing suicidal thoughts.
    <snip>
    When pressed by coroner Andrew Walker to clarify whether she thought the posts were safe, she replied "Yes, it is safe."
    She said Meta's understanding was there was no clear research into the effect posts have on children but their research reported a "mixed experience".
    Questioning why Instagram felt it could choose which material was safe for children to view, the coroner then asked: "So why are you given the entitlement to assist children in this way?
    "Who has given you the permission to do this? You run a business.
    "There are a great many people who are ... trained medical professionals. What gives you the right to make the decisions about the material to put before children?"
    Ms Lagone responded: "That's why we work closely with experts."
    She added decisions were not "made in a vacuum".
    During the day's proceedings, videos the teenager accessed on Instagram were played to the court with the coroner once again warning the material had the "potential to cause great harm".
    He said the content "seeks to romanticise and in some way validate the act of harm to young people," before urging anyone who wanted to leave the room to do so, with one person leaving.
    There is more: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-63034300
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Molly Russell's inquest to put focus on big tech

    A modest suggestion. If one is going to discuss this topic, this approaches essential reading: Ten Arguments for Deleting Your Social Media Accounts Right Now (Jaron Lanier)

    What are you doing about it?




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    Default Re: Molly Russell's inquest to put focus on big tech

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Orca View Post
    A modest suggestion. If one is going to discuss this topic, this approaches essential reading: Ten Arguments for Deleting Your Social Media Accounts Right Now (Jaron Lanier)
    Looks like a good book.

    Now how do we get 14 yo children, even those without depression, to believe that it applies to them?

    Peer pressure, and the fact that 14 yo children do not develop caution until they are about 18 makes that idea a non runner in this case.

    The owners of money machines in the social media industry need to review their responsibility to society.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Molly Russell's inquest to put focus on big tech


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    Default Re: Molly Russell's inquest to put focus on big tech

    I am not saying that it is a bad book, just not particularly relevant to this thread.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Molly Russell's inquest to put focus on big tech

    This is going on in the background to the inquest
    Molly's story provided fresh impetus for new legislation to regulate so-called big tech companies. The Online Safety Bill is still making its way through Parliament and is due a third reading in the Commons.
    You can read the draft Bill here, it is a big document.
    https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/3137
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Molly Russell's inquest to put focus on big tech

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    I am not saying that it is a bad book, just not particularly relevant to this thread.
    recognizing 'just say no' isn't applicable, where he points out how social media intentionally warps a persons view to drive their agenda seems at least somewhat relevant.

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    Default Re: Molly Russell's inquest to put focus on big tech

    Quote Originally Posted by Durnik View Post
    recognizing 'just say no' isn't applicable, where he points out how social media intentionally warps a persons view to drive their agenda seems at least somewhat relevant.
    I ask you as well:
    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Now how do we get 14 yo children, even those without depression, to believe that it applies to them?

    Peer pressure, and the fact that 14 yo children do not develop caution until they are about 18 makes that idea a non runner in this case.
    That is why the UK govt is designing a big stick.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    This is going on in the background to the inquest
    Molly's story provided fresh impetus for new legislation to regulate so-called big tech companies. The Online Safety Bill is still making its way through Parliament and is due a third reading in the Commons.
    You can read the draft Bill here, it is a big document.
    https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/3137
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

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    Default Re: Molly Russell's inquest to put focus on big tech

    The latest BeeB report
    A child psychiatrist was "not able to sleep well" after seeing self-harm material viewed on social media by a 14-year-old girl who went on to take her own life, an inquest has heard.
    Molly Russell engaged with thousands of such posts before her death in 2017.
    Dr Navin Venugopal said the "very disturbing" content Molly had engaged with would "certainly affect her and made her feel more hopeless".
    Molly wrote a note before she died, which was "very sad", the doctor said.
    Giving evidence at North London Coroner's Court, Dr Venugopal said he saw no "positive benefit" to the material viewed by the teenager, who was from Harrow, in the months before she died.
    Under questioning from coroner Andrew Walker, the psychiatrist said: "This material seems to romanticise, glamorise, and take the subject of self-harm, take it away from reality and make it seem almost unreal, take away from these terrible acts any kind of consequence."
    The coroner asked: "You have looked at the material, do you think that the material that Molly viewed had any impact on her state of
    Dr Venugopal replied: "I suppose I will start off, I will talk about the effect the material had on my state of mind. I had to see it over a short period of time and it was very disturbing, distressing.
    "There were periods where I was not able to sleep well for a few weeks so bearing in mind that the child saw this over a period of months I can only say that she was [affected] - especially bearing in mind that she was a depressed 14-year-old.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-63049167

    But the Instagram's shill claims:
    Ms Lagone told the court she thought the content Molly saw was "nuanced and complicated", adding it was important to give people a voice if they were experiencing suicidal thoughts.
    <snip>
    When pressed by coroner Andrew Walker to clarify whether she thought the posts were safe, she replied "Yes, it is safe."
    She said Meta's understanding was there was no clear research into the effect posts have on children but their research reported a "mixed experience".
    That classic statement "no clear research" Or in other words, yes it is probably harmful, but you cannot prove it.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Molly Russell's inquest to put focus on big tech

    Social media causes "no end of issues" as it is "almost impossible to keep track of", the headteacher of Molly Russell's school has told an inquest.
    The 14-year-old, from Harrow, viewed thousands of such posts in the months before she took her own life in 2017.
    Sue Maguire told North London Coroner's Court social media had challenges that did not exist 10 or 15 years ago.
    She said Hatch End High School had warned students about the "dangers of social media for a long time".
    Giving evidence, Ms Maguire said: "Our experience of young people is that social media plays a huge, dominant role in their lives and it causes no end of issues.
    "There's a level where I want to say it's almost impossible to keep track of social media, but we have to try and we have to respond to the information as we receive it."
    The inquest was told that out of the 16,300 posts Molly saved, shared or liked on Instagram in the six months before her death, 2,100 were depression, self-harm or suicide-related.
    Ms Maguire said staff were shocked when they became aware of the graphic content available to students like Molly on sites such as Instagram.
    Deputy headteacher Rebecca Cozens, who is also head of safeguarding at the school, told the inquest that once young people had gone "down the rabbit hole" on social media, it was a "deep one".
    Coroner Andrew Walker told the Russell family he would be delivering his conclusions by the end of the week.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-63034686
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Molly Russell's inquest to put focus on big tech

    The Coroners findings
    Unsafe online content contributed "in a more than minimal way" to the death of a girl who took her own life, an inquest has found.
    Senior coroner Andrew Walker said material viewed by 14-year-old Molly Russell on social media "shouldn't have been available for a child to see".
    Molly, from Harrow, viewed thousands of images of self-harm and suicide before she died in November 2017.
    Mr Walker said: "It would not be safe to leave suicide as a conclusion."
    He told North London Coroner's Court: "She died from an act of self-harm while suffering from depression and the negative effects of online content."
    <snip>
    The senior coroner will now compile a report outlining his concerns. He is to write to Meta - the owner of Instagram - and Pinterest, as well as the government and Ofcom.
    <snip>
    Remarks made by senior coroner Andrew Walker

    "Molly Rose Russell died on 21 November 2017. Molly was 14 years old.
    "Molly appeared a normal, healthy girl who was flourishing at school, having settled well into secondary school life and displayed an enthusiastic interest in the performing arts.
    "However, Molly had become depressed, a common condition affecting children of this age. This then worsened into a depressive illness.
    "Molly subscribed to a number of online sites.
    "At the time that these sites were viewed by Molly some of these sites were not safe as they allowed access to adult content that should not have been available for a 14-year-old child to see.
    "The way that the platforms operated meant that Molly had access to images, video clips and text concerning or concerned with self-harm, suicide or that were otherwise negative or depressing in nature.
    "The platform operated in such a way using algorithms as to result, in some circumstances, of binge periods of images, video-clips and text, some of which were selected and provided without Molly requesting them.
    "These binge periods, if involving this content, are likely to have had a negative effect of Molly.
    "Some of this content romanticised acts of self-harm by young people on themselves. Other content sought to isolate and discourage discussion with those who may have been able to help.
    "Molly turned to celebrities for help, not realising there was little prospect of a reply.
    "In some cases, the content was particularly graphic, tending to portray self-harm and suicide as an inevitable consequence of a condition that could not be recovered from.
    "The sites normalised her condition, focusing on a limited and irrational view without any counterbalance of normality."
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-63073489
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Molly Russell's inquest to put focus on big tech

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Looks like a good book.

    Now how do we get 14 yo children, even those without depression, to believe that it applies to them?
    If I had kids of that age, we would already have discussed this stuff in some detail. Mine were grown before this really became a thing, though.

    What are you doing about it?




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    Default Re: Molly Russell's inquest to put focus on big tech

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Orca View Post
    If I had kids of that age, we would already have discussed this stuff in some detail. Mine were grown before this really became a thing, though.
    Yes Mum

    Mobile phones now come with thumb rings on their back, so you don't even drop them if you walk into a lamp post whist reading Instagram posts.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
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