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Thread: Sovereign Citizens

  1. #1
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    Default Sovereign Citizens

    Oh, Michigan . . . wonder what it must be like inside these peoples' heads.

    My favorite bit is this:

    Sexton, in claiming to be a sovereign citizen, is relying on conspiracy theories that the Souhern Poverty Law Center -- a national organization that monitors hate groups and movements nationwide -- says has evolved from old anti-government adherents with racist and anti-Semitic roots.

    "The contemporary sovereign belief system is based on a decades-old conspiracy theory," a SPLC overview says

    "Sovereigns believe that the American government set up by the founding fathers, under a common-law legal system, was secretly replaced. They think the replacement government swapped common law for admiralty law, which is the law of the sea and international commerce."
    From the Mount Pleasant, Michigan Morning Sun...

    Sovereign citizens: A plate and affidavit in Mt. Pleasant
    Conspiracy theorists claim immunity from government

    A Mt. Pleasant woman driving home from work the other day was surprised enough to see a "sovereign citizen" license plate that she shot a picture.

    That plate, on the back of a Ford SUV, stated "PRIVATE" and declared "no driver license or insurance required."



    While neither the Mt. Pleasant Police Department nor the Isabella County Sheriff’s Office has had contact with the particular vehicle, both are well aware of the movement, which declares that a "sovereign citizen" is exempt from all reaches of government.

    In the vehicle photographed in Mt. Pleasant, a lone woman was driving.

    "The woman driving had long acrylic nails and was gesticulating somewhat wildly with her left hand while talking seemingly on the phone or maybe to a passenger in the car, but it looked like she was alone," the motorists who took the photo said.

    Just weeks ago, city police received a notarized declaration of sovereign citizenship from a John T. Sexton, said Paul Lauria, director of the Mt. Pleasant Department of Public Safety.

    "I am not a resident of any state under the 14th Amendment and hereby publicly disavow any contact, form, agreement application, certificate, license, permit or other document which I may have signed," the declaration reads in part.

    His document goes on in confusing language to declare his freedom from the government, to say he may have filed income taxes before but only mistakenly, and that anyone wanting to challenge his sovereignty should challenge him in an affidavit.



    While local law enforcement hasn’t had contact with Sexton nor the Ford SUV photographed, and there is no indication they are related, officers are well aware of the movement.

    "Occasionally we run across a person that affiliates with the sovereign citizen methodology. It would be handled like any other traffic stop for improper or no registration," said Isabella [County] Sheriff Mike Main.

    More than likely, the sheriff said, the vehicle wouldn’t have insurance either.

    "In most cases we are told they are traveling versus driving and that means they are not required to have the registration or insurance."

    Main said most officers would write tickets and attempt to avoid conflict by encouraging the motorist to challenge their issues in court.

    "It can be difficult as most refuse to show ID, which is a requirement for the driver in this situation," he said.

    "Although there is discretion for each law enforcement officer, I would guess most would issue at minimum a citation for the violations and probably have the vehicle towed until proper paperwork can be obtained."

    Sexton, in claiming to be a sovereign citizen, is relying on conspiracy theories that the Souhern Poverty Law Center -- a national organization that monitors hate groups and movements nationwide -- says has evolved from old anti-government adherents with racist and anti-Semitic roots.

    "The contemporary sovereign belief system is based on a decades-old conspiracy theory," a SPLC overview says

    "Sovereigns believe that the American government set up by the founding fathers, under a common-law legal system, was secretly replaced. They think the replacement government swapped common law for admiralty law, which is the law of the sea and international commerce."

    Neither Main nor Lauria had specific recent details of traffic stops or other contacts with sovereign citizen claimants.

    https://www.themorningsun.com/2022/0...n-mt-pleasant/
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Sovereign Citizens

    dse
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Sovereign Citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    A Mt. Pleasant woman driving home from work the other day was surprised enough to see a "sovereign citizen" license plate that she shot a picture.

    That plate, on the back of a Ford SUV, stated "PRIVATE" and declared "no driver license or insurance required."
    Sounds delusional. Their arrest may bring into question the legitimacy of that theory.
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Sovereign Citizens

    Mt. Pleasant is the home of the Saginaw Chippewa tribe, which owns and operates a casino. From their web site:

    An Indian Tribe is a distinct political community. A Tribe retains its inherent powers of self-government absent action by Congress to limit those powers. A State cannot limit the powers of a Tribe.
    The source of Tribal powers rests in its people. Tribes have had the inherent right to govern themselves "from time immemorial". See Worchester v. Georgia, 515, 558 (1832). Tribal governments have the same powers as the federal and state governments to regulate their internal affairs, with some few exceptions. For instance, the Tribes have the power to form a government, to decide their own membership, the right to regulate property, the right to maintain law and order, the right to regulate commerce, and so on.

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    Default Re: Sovereign Citizens

    Sovereign Citizens and Law Enforcement


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Sovereign Citizens

    GRAPHIC VIDEO: Man refuses to leave car, police K-9 helps


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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy W View Post
    Sovereign Citizens and Law Enforcement


    Why do I think that the set intersection of MAGA-heads and "sovereign citizens" is large?
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

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    Default Re: Sovereign Citizens

    My sister was dating a guy that went this route.

    She dropped him like he was 6th period calculus.

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    Default Re: Sovereign Citizens

    A coworker's next door neighbor is actively pursuing this, mostly as an attempt to dodge property taxes. He's "done the paperwork" to no longer have a Massachusetts driver's license, and is working on "the paperwork" to declare his property its own sovereign entity to which local laws do not apply.

    We can sigh and roll our eyes, he's a recent-retiree with enough time on his hands to pursue this new hobby, and now that the mortgage is paid-off his property taxes are by far his largest single line item expense.
    Of course, the reason his medical expenses are second not first on that same list is his government subsidized insurance plan, but perhaps he won't go so far as to disclaim that.
    "Visionary" is he who in every egg sees a carbonara.

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    Default Re: Sovereign Citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy W View Post
    GRAPHIC VIDEO: Man refuses to leave car, police K-9 helps
    in no way am i sympathetic with the sovereign citizen cause; that said the police went a little overboard with the dog in the case, i actually don’t think the effing handler was capable of getting the dog to release on command
    Last edited by Paul Pless; 09-19-2022 at 09:05 AM.
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    Default Re: Sovereign Citizens

    The videos are an extreme version of a severely deranged movement. Most of them just give police attitude and ultimately comply. It is a ridiculous movement.

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    Default Re: Sovereign Citizens

    It is amazing people like that have enough brain cells to actually hold a down a job.
    Gerard>
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerarddm View Post
    It is amazing people like that have enough brain cells to actually hold a down a job.
    They love handing cops a sheet of paper where they declare themselves Sovereign Citizens. I think some actually believe what they are saying. I think others just like challenging the police.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    in no way am i sympathetic with the sovereign citizen cause; that said the police went a little overboard with the dog in the case, i actually don’t think the effing handler was capable of getting the dog to release on command
    Between all those cops, none of them had a Taser?
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  15. #15
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    Default Re: Sovereign Citizens

    I'd say they went a lot overboard with the K9. Even if they followed every single letter of the training manual, that's just begging for a lawsuit.

    Will a sovereign citizen avail himself of the established legal mechanisms to sue?
    "Visionary" is he who in every egg sees a carbonara.

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    Default Re: Sovereign Citizens

    on the other hand, get questioned by a cop and refuse to answer, or ask a question back,(am i being detained? or do you have RAS of a crime?,etc) and be instantly labeled "sovern citizen"
    gubmint been at war with the people for 50 years , they even named it "war on drugs".people wanna hit back a little

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Sovereign Citizens

    Right. They're 'sovereign citizens', a contradiction in terms if there ever was one. You can be sovereign, living out in the mountains in a state of nature subject to none, or you can be a citizen, subject to the laws, with all rights and responsibilities of a citizen. You don't get to decide which of the laws you want to obey. That's the definition of a law, that which isn't optional.

    F***ing idiots.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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  18. #18
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    Default Re: Sovereign Citizens

    Doesn't this all belong over on the 'Some people are afraid of clowns' thread??
    David G
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    Default Re: Sovereign Citizens

    Wait 'til one of them is a victim of a crime and scream for help from law enforcement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerarddm View Post
    It is amazing people like that have enough brain cells to actually hold a down a job.
    Hold down a job?

    I'm amazed they can get out of the house in the morning with their pants on.
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  21. #21
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    Default Re: Sovereign Citizens

    Pants first, then shoes

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh MacD View Post
    Wait 'til one of them is a victim of a crime and scream for help from law enforcement.
    They don't have any problem driving over the roads paid for with taxes that they claim they no longer need to pay.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    Between all those cops, none of them had a Taser?
    Quote Originally Posted by Figment View Post
    I'd say they went a lot overboard with the K9. Even if they followed every single letter of the training manual, that's just begging for a lawsuit.

    Will a sovereign citizen avail himself of the established legal mechanisms to sue?
    Seemed to me that the cops were remarkably reasonable and measured in their response.

    I might have smashed the window and maced him, though, before setting the dog on him.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    Seemed to me that the cops were remarkably reasonable and measured in their response.

    I might have smashed the window and maced him, though, before setting the dog on him.
    its not that they set the dog on him, its that they couldn't/wouldn't get the dog off of him
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    Default Re: Sovereign Citizens

    Come on Paul, the dog was wagging it's tail. The biting was very enthusiastic. That Shep was living the dream.

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    Hey some of these guys can hold a job, even when they don't have one. We had one of these nutcases declare himself as the sheriff of Freedom County. ( It does not exist )
    The real deputy sheriffs of Whatcom county put a end to it real fast after he started to pull people over.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Sovereign Citizens

    I've been a fan of 'sovcit' videos for a long time, and subscribe to a number of YouTube channels that are run by people exposing these fools... which is easy to do, since the fools always post their encounters with police. Their motivation, no doubt, is 'clicks and views', because channels with over 1,000 subscribers are very profitable. There are also 'first amendment auditors' (often called 'frauditors') who invade public buildings armed with cameras, annoying and harassing officials, employees, and ordinary citizens; their prize is getting arrested, usually for trespassing, because it draws even more clicks and views to their YouTube channels.

    I get very disappointed, occasionally, when the cop pulling one of these fools over doesn't arrest them, even when the jerk has a suspended license, no registration, and no proof of insurance. I realize that there may be overcrowding issues in the local lock-ups, but I hate to see people getting away with that kind of crap.

    A bit less often, I'll catch a courtroom video where these clowns ALWAYS lose, despite their absurd interpretations of what they think is law. Those are the most satisfying videos.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







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    This is the first I've heard of the Admiralty angle. But I'm not following closely.

    What mystifies me is that, with the time they spend learning these fables, they could be learning the real stuff, and then they would have something worthwhile. The same with all conspiracy nuts, from Q to CRT. Remember "The Symbionese Liberation Army" with its "Commandante" and "Minister of Defense"?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    You don't get to decide which of the laws you want to obey.
    Many people ignore the speed limits. They certainly decide when and if they want to obey those laws.

    Many people use illegal drugs. They certainly decide when and if they want to obey those laws.

    From time to time the government stops people from ignoring certain laws. But people need constant surveillance.

    I am certain may people will ignore the laws prohibiting abortion. I think many people here will support that.
    Life is complex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    Many people ignore the speed limits. They certainly decide when and if they want to obey those laws.

    Many people use illegal drugs. They certainly decide when and if they want to obey those laws.

    From time to time the government stops people from ignoring certain laws. But people need constant surveillance.

    I am certain may people will ignore the laws prohibiting abortion. I think many people here will support that.
    Jesus God in a flowery meadow, why do refuse to understand?

    Violate the law, and the law is untouched. What you have decided is to run the risk of getting your butt kicked. When you get caught, be sure to mention that the law isn't the law because you decided that it shouldn't be. That will result in extra cause to re-examine your error.
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  31. #31
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    Default Re: Sovereign Citizens

    Interesting. I didn't know you had these in the US as well. We have a few of the "Sovereign Citizens" in Germany. It was not high on the priority list until some of them started to shoot public servants and police officers.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy W
    GRAPHIC VIDEO: Man refuses to leave car, police K-9 helps

    Stark County Ohio. That is Canton, North Canton and Massillon, Ohio and is just south of Akron in Summit County.

    Ohio is full of right-wing nutters.
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  33. #33
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    Default Re: Sovereign Citizens

    .
    By the way, Ronald Wagner II sued the City of Canton as well as all the police officers involved in his apprehension and arrest. He lost. What a fool.

    III. Conclusion

    Finding that Plaintiff has failed to demonstrate that he was denied a right secured by the Constitution or laws of the United States -- an essential element of 1983 claim,

    Defendant Joseph Barnhouse's Motion for Judgment on the Pleadings (ECF No. 35) is granted; and

    Defendants The City of Canton, Ohio, Steven E. Shackle, and Keith Foster's Motion for Judgment on the Pleadings (ECF No. 49) is granted without opposition.

    Defendants' Unopposed Motion to Stay Case Schedule (ECF No. 51) is denied as moot.

    IT IS SO ORDERED. March 30, 2020
    Date

    /s/ Benita Y . Pearson
    Benita Y. Pearson
    United States District Judge

    https://casetext.com/case/wagner-v-city-of-canton
    "I'll tell you why [religion's] not a scam. In my opinion, all right? Tide goes in, tide goes out. Never a miscommunication. You can't explain that."Bill O'Reilly

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