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Thread: The Queen is dead. Long live the King.

  1. #71
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    Default Re: The Queen is dead. Long live the King.

    Also, not a peadophile.

  2. #72
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    Default Re: The Queen is dead. Long live the King.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    When you think back to the American revolution and the centuries before, there was an astonishing change in the British monarchy in our lifetime (plus a few decades).
    I would like to hear some of our British friends comment on this, as this is not how I see it at all. Parliament pretty much as been supreme since the reign of James II. Afterwards, Kings and Queens certainly tried to have some power, but that seem to gradually end. George III had more power than British monarchs today, but he would have been no where near authoritarian. By the mid to late 19th century, it had pretty much settled into how it is today, had it not?

  3. #73
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    Default Re: The Queen is dead. Long live the King.

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Originally Posted by sandtown
    Her ancestors used hunt our ancestors . . . for sport
    It was barbaric, i agree.
    You appear to think that santown speaks truth?
    Our current Royals are descended from George, Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg who was the first member of the House of Hanover. When the Duchy of Brunswick-Lüneburg was divided in 1635, George inherited. How far back in the germanic aristocracy are we talking here?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    I would like to hear some of our British friends comment on this, as this is not how I see it at all. Parliament pretty much as been supreme since the reign of James II. Afterwards, Kings and Queens certainly tried to have some power, but that seem to gradually end. George III had more power than British monarchs today, but he would have been no where near authoritarian. By the mid to late 19th century, it had pretty much settled into how it is today, had it not?
    We became a constitutional monarchy with William and Mary. History records that George III was sympathetic to the American colonists, but financial vested interest in Parliament took a harder line. The colonies were a commercial enterprise, after all.
    Since 2015, Queen Elizabeth II has released more than 100,000 pages of documents in the Royal Archives relating to King George III. They reveal a startlingly new picture of the last king of America—one about as far removed as possible from the description of George in the Declaration of Independence: “A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.”
    We can now see, for example, George’s fervent denunciation of slavery in an essay he wrote as Prince of Wales in the late 1750s, after reading Charles de Montesquieu’s classic enlightenment text, The Spirit of the Laws (1748). Indeed, George’s comments go even further than Montesquieu’s own opposition to the practice.
    “The pretexts used by the Spaniards for enslaving the New World were extremely curious,” George notes; “the propagation of the Christian religion was the first reason, the next was the [Indigenous] Americans differing from them in colour, manners and customs, all of which are too absurd to take the trouble of refuting.” As for the European practice of enslaving Africans, he wrote, “the very reasons urged for it will be perhaps sufficient to make us hold such practice in execration.”
    George never owned slaves himself, and he gave his assent to the legislation that abolished the slave trade in England in 1807. By contrast, no fewer than 41 of the 56 signatories to the Declaration of Independence were slave owners.
    It was the Declaration that established the myth that George III was a tyrant. Yet George was the epitome of a constitutional monarch, deeply conscientious about the limits of his power. He never vetoed a single Act of Parliament, nor did he have any hopes or plans to establish anything approaching tyranny over his American colonies, which were among the freest societies in the world at the time of the Revolution: Newspapers were uncensored, there were rarely troops in the streets and the subjects of the 13 colonies enjoyed greater rights and liberties under the law than any comparable European country of the day.
    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/histo...rge-180978852/
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  5. #75
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    Default Re: The Queen is dead. Long live the King.

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    I'm not excusing any abuses of British or other European colonial oppression. At all. But I'm done with portraying these as unique evils primarily perpetrated by Europeans on a normatively peaceful world.
    THANK YOU. One would think this would be obvious; even a cursory study of ancient history makes it completely clear.

    Oh. and about the cost of the monarchy, good idea or not, it's not that much. The vast majority of it, the palaces and land and trappings, was paid for long ago. The day-to-day expense is probably less than one moderate bomber.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    THANK YOU. One would think this would be obvious; even a cursory study of ancient history makes it completely clear.

    Oh. and about the cost of the monarchy, good idea or not, it's not that much. The vast majority of it, the palaces and land and trappings, was paid for long ago. The day-to-day expense is probably less than one moderate bomber.
    Yes, they have been pretty well financially independent since Queen Victoria, who was so careful with money that she was the first monarch not constantly dipping into the privy purse.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  7. #77
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    Default Re: The Queen is dead. Long live the King.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    We became a constitutional monarchy with William and Mary. History records that George III was sympathetic to the American colonists, but financial vested interest in Parliament took a harder line. The colonies were a commercial enterprise, after all.
    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/histo...rge-180978852/
    I once read a biography of King George III with a long introduction by King Charles III. It was immediately clear to me that King Charles had a detailed knowledge of King George and admired him very much indeed.
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  8. #78
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    Default Re: The Queen is dead. Long live the King.

    We've had the discussion before - in my PoliSci education much was made of a genuine distinction between a Head of State, and a Head of Government.

    The Head of State is the representative not so much of the political leadership presently exercising power, but impartially of the Nation State itself. In some sense, represents and promotes values consistent with the idea of that particular Nation State, irrespective of who's cluttering up a bureaucratic office at the time.

    In many modern Republics there's both a President (who is the Head of State), and a Prime Minister (who is the Head of Government). Awarding a Presidential Medal, or marking the sacrifices of veterans, or giving honors to extraordinary civilians for their contributions to the nation and beyond ... is a Head of State function. Wrangling with elected representatives or managing the priorities of the Executive Branch is a Head of Government function. In the USA, both of those functions are assumed by a single person - but one ought to still see a blurry line between acting as a political partisan, and acting as the representative of the Office of the Presidency.

    In Constitutional Monarchies, like the UK and Canada, the Crown is the Head of State, while the elected Prime Minister is the Head of Government. The line isn't blurred. There are legit criticisms of having a hereditary (or in Canada's case, appointed) Head of State, and whether such can ever really be a focus for popular identification and representation in the modern world. I've heard a few commentators observe that Queen Elizabeth was a relic, who survived the erosion of her institution's relevancy by gradually gaining personal celebrity and respect. And similarly observe that monarchies are families, and it's a crapshoot whether the next-in-line will have those personal gifts - would every one of anybody's kids have them?

    The answer is obvious, yet it's no less obvious to see the range from brilliant to execrable in elected officials - whether heads of State or Government. And IMO, it's impossible, in an elected Head of State model, to evade even only the impression of partisanship. What popular representation one may gain from the Head of State election, one may gain only with a smattering of those who voted for the other guy. Do most Dems think Rush Limbaugh deserved the Presidential Medal of Freedom? Do most current Reps think Gloria Steinem did?

    IMO, there's a helluva lot to be said for Constitutional Monarchy as a model. For all that it's got obvious weak points, it's got equally powerful strong points. And Constitutional Republics have no corresponding but different strengths/weaknesses of their own, which fill the media's appetites for scandal and reverence?
    Last edited by TomF; 09-09-2022 at 10:20 AM.
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  9. #79
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    Default Re: The Queen is dead. Long live the King.

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    A solemn moment in world history.
    Kevin
    To me she was always an ultimate representative of "the Greatest Generation". This is the end of a significant era in our world's history. RIP, lady...you've done your job well.

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    Default Re: The Queen is dead. Long live the King.

    Looking forward to seeing the new star wars themed post boxes.



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  11. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    I've heard a few commentators observe that Queen Elizabeth was a relic, who survived the erosion of her institution's relevancy by gradually gaining personal celebrity and respect.
    Those commentators were speaking from a solid foundation of ignorance
    HM received a dispatch box every day

    These boxes contain important documents from her Cabinet and from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office for the queen to review in her role as head of state. While some of the documents contained in the boxes require her immediate attention or even her formal signature to move forward, others are simply information so that the monarch can stay aware of the proceedings in the government or be well briefed prior to important meetings.
    and works through their contents. Then discusses them with the PM at their weekly meeting.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  12. #82
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    Default Re: The Queen is dead. Long live the King.

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    I've heard a few commentators observe that Queen Elizabeth was a relic, who survived the erosion of her institution's relevancy by gradually gaining personal celebrity and respect. And similarly observe that monarchies are families, and it's a crapshoot whether the next-in-line will have those personal gifts - would every one of anybody's kids have them?
    Those commentators were speaking from a solid foundation of ignorance
    HM received dispatch box every day

    These boxes contain important documents from her Cabinet and from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office for the queen to review in her role as head of state. While some of the documents contained in the boxes require her immediate attention or even her formal signature to move forward, others are simply information so that the monarch can stay aware of the proceedings in the government or be well briefed prior to important meetings.
    and works through their contents. Then discusses them with the PM at their weekly meeting.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: The Queen is dead. Long live the King.

    Ah, I was unclear.

    The commentators felt that the institution of the Monarchy had eroded relevance, not that the Queen didn't do her job. That over her reign, the UK diminished as a global power, the Empire eroded into a Commonwealth, and the Commonwealth itself decreased in importance both as an international institution and even in the eyes of member states. The commentators said this is isn't her fault by any stretch - she's been remarkable - it's just the way geopolitics has moved since the mid 20th Century.

    The Monarchy's relevance diminished, they claim, both as the international role of Empire and Commonwealth diminished, and as cultural diversity within the State grew. The Royal Family became less the embodiment of the current State, and more a link to anachronistic cultural touchpoints of a prior State. As the UK became more and more multicultural, those emotionally charged traditions, practices, monuments etc. still spoke vividly, but to fewer of the culturally diverse citizenry than a century ago.

    Now, in my view that opinion is wrong. I say that not as a Brit, but as a Canadian member of the Commonwealth, in a country that became radically culturally diverse even before it happened in the modern UK. In my view, the Monarchy's relevance or irrelevance isn't determined by living on historic estates or one's skin tone or accent. As an institution, the Monarchy represents the idea of the State - trying both to be fully active and innovative in the modern world, while seeing incalculable value in the checks/balances, probative caution, and weight of experience of centuries of effort.

    It may be that I see it that way exactly because in Canada in my lifetime, the Governor Generals have included anglophones, francophones, immigrants both from China and Haiti, men and women. But each has been the Queen's Representative, and in that a personal and meaningful link to the traditions of law, governance, rights, and civic culture which are at the heart of Canadian public life and identity.

    FWIW, I see Biden trying to gain something of a similar connection with America's traditions and history, in his regularly scheduled in camera meetings with groups of eminent historians.
    Last edited by TomF; 09-09-2022 at 11:40 AM.
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  14. #84
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    ^ There are no photos of the late Queen's father or grandfather working, but I am sure that they too followed a similar regimen, I was speaking in general terms.
    Due to her morbid grief Queen Vic was not that good an example, her son was a dilettante, I have no idea whether he was much better or not. The monarchy has been improving since then.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: The Queen is dead. Long live the King.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    ^ There are no photos of the late Queen's father or grandfather working, but I am sure that they too followed a similar regimen, I was speaking in general terms.
    Due to her morbid grief Queen Vic was not that good an example, her son was a dilettante, I have no idea whether he was much better or not. The monarchy has been improving since then.
    According to what I have read, King Edward VII shaped up when he became king and spent long hours with the dispatch boxes.

  16. #86
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    The Queen visited Seattle once.

    She came and went in style:

    What's not on a boat costs nothing, weighs nothing, and can't break

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobcat View Post
    The Queen visited Seattle once.

    She came and went in style:

    Using Britannia allowed the Royal visitors to return their host's hospitality, as well as hosting parties to further our commercial interests.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    as well as hosting parties to further our commercial interests.
    ah, the royal familiy probably pays for itself eh?
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    ah, the royal familiy probably pays for itself eh?
    Misunderstanding much?
    We do have a working royal family. As, I expect, do most other monarchies.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    ah, the royal familiy probably pays for itself eh?

    Actually, by some estimates, the mere presence of the royals is good for around 1.7 billion pounds in annual tourist expenditures.

    ETA: Against something like an 85 million pound draw or grant from the treasury, not a bad rate of return for the investment in the "Royals" long running soap opera.
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    Default Re: The Queen is dead. Long live the King.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    ah, the royal familiy probably pays for itself eh?
    It probably generates quite a profit.It has been posted here before over the years,but for the benefit of those who might not have read it,the income from the Crown Estate mostly goes to the exchequer-85% in fact.The remaining 15% is used to cover the cost of the duties the various family members undertake.I don't suppose the cost of a modest security detail makes that much of an impact.The tourist and nostalgia income is probably quite considerable too.

    I found it interesting to observe the reporting of the queen's demise in a couple of ways.I have just returned home from a short break in France and yesterday afternoon I caught up with news from the UK while still a couple of hours drive from the ferry.I saw the report of the doctors closely supervising the condition of the queen and wondered about just how serious things were.I had been listening to France Info on the car radio to re-acquaint myself with the language and at that point they switched exclusively to coverage of the matter.This made me realise that things were very serious and I thought it might be time to see what the BBC had to say.I was out of range of the FM services and tuned to Radio 4 Long Wave-where they had people speaking about the cricket that wasn't taking place due to rain.So I tried BBC 5 Live and found they had a different bunch of people talking about the cricket that had been rained off....

    I don't know how many of you would understand the relevance of this given events of the last few months.

    Last edited by John Meachen; 09-09-2022 at 05:22 PM.

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    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    It probably generates quite a profit.It has been posted here before over the years,but for the benefit of those who might not have read it,the income from the Crown Estate mostly goes to the exchequer-85% in fact.The remaining 15% is used to cover the cost of the duties the various family members undertake.I don't suppose the cost of a modest security detail makes that much of an impact.The tourist and nostalgia income is probably quite considerable too.

    I found it interesting to observe the reporting of the queen's demise in a couple of ways.I have just returned home from a short break in France and yesterday afternoon I caught up with news from the UK while still a couple of hours drive from the ferry.I saw the report of the doctors closely supervising the condition of the queen and wondered about just how serious things were.I had been listening to France Info on the car radio to re-acquaint myself with the language and at that point they switched exclusively to coverage of the matter.This made me realise that things were very serious and I thought it might be time to see what the BBC had to say.I was out of range of the FM services and tuned to Radio 4 Long Wave-where they had people speaking about the cricket that wasn't taking place due to rain.So I tried BBC 5 Live and found they had a different bunch of people talking about the cricket that had been rained off....

    I don't know how many of you would understand the relevance of this given events of the last few months.



    Poignant. Thanks for posting, John.

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    Trying to justify them because they make money, has a lot of similarities to the arguments that supported slavery.

    Off with their metaphoric heads, say I. Excepting Andy of course, something not so metaphoric for him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl View Post
    Trying to justify them because they make money, has a lot of similarities to the arguments that supported slavery.

    Off with their metaphoric heads, say I. Excepting Andy of course, something not so metaphoric for him.
    So, you would have rather had Skidmark as head of state?
    Oh sorry, I forgot, you did.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    So, you would have rather had Skidmark as head of state?
    Oh sorry, I forgot, you did.
    And you my dear chap, have a man who expressed a wish to be a tampon.
    Yes, I would rather have an elected head of state.

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    They make money for Britain as entertainment. Keeping them on as born-to-rule aristocracy is simply childish. Keeping them on as symbolic patrons of the Commonwealth as opposed to heads of state makes some sense but otherwise, they're just celebs these days. They do some good things and some embarrassing things, like other celebs.
    Rick

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    Last night I watched the footage of Charles being officially recognised as king- every part of the event flawless in its detail and execution and embracing a thousand years of history. I thought it was wonderful. And only a monarchy can put on such a show. Just hold your horses Rick, we'll be a republic soon enough. Our major shows of pageantry will involve stumbled speeches, apologies and a handful of burning gum leaves. As usual I'll be too embarrassed to watch. JayInOz

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    Default Re: The Queen is dead. Long live the King.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl View Post
    And you my dear chap, have a man who expressed a wish to be a tampon.
    Yes, I would rather have an elected head of state.
    I read somewhere that counting ALL costs by ALL involved....ie;Dems and Reps
    Something close to 11 Billion US dollars was spent electing President Trump.
    That is from beginning to end ....Primaries and final election.

    Our Head of State basically costs us nothing, or very little.
    I say that we should keep things as they are.

    I can think of a lot better things to do with that 11 Billion dollars, every 4 years.
    The US might even be able to afford free universal Healthcare for all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayInOz View Post
    Last night I watched the footage of Charles being officially recognised as king- every part of the event flawless in its detail and execution and embracing a thousand years of history. I thought it was wonderful. And only a monarchy can put on such a show. Just hold your horses Rick, we'll be a republic soon enough. Our major shows of pageantry will involve stumbled speeches, apologies and a handful of burning gum leaves. As usual I'll be too embarrassed to watch. JayInOz
    Let's hope so.
    Rick

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    Tonight's cocktail is drunk in memory of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second.

    It is the most excellent Queen Elizabeth Cocktail from the 1937 book The How and When by Hyman Gale and Gerald F. Marco.

    Simple, yet elegant.

    [b]Queen Elizabeth Cocktail[/i]

    2 parts dry vermouth (Noilly Prat preferred)
    1 part D.O.M. Benedictine
    1 part freshly squeezed lime juice

    Stir well over ice. Strain into a cocktail glass. Squeeze a twist of lemon zest and garnish with it.
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    Default Re: The Queen is dead. Long live the King.

    One thing is for sure - Charles won't have seventy years in the job like his mother. He won't be the unchanging rock in a rapidly changing world as his mother was. Elizabeth was always there throughout my whole life. I reckon twenty years tops for Charles, then we will have William, but probably not in my lifetime, I'm a few months older than Charles.
    Structures without reference to geometry tend toward the ramshackle

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    Default Re: The Queen is dead. Long live the King.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayInOz View Post
    Last night I watched the footage of Charles being officially recognised as king- every part of the event flawless in its detail and execution and embracing a thousand years of history. I thought it was wonderful. And only a monarchy can put on such a show. Just hold your horses Rick, we'll be a republic soon enough. Our major shows of pageantry will involve stumbled speeches, apologies and a handful of burning gum leaves. As usual I'll be too embarrassed to watch. JayInOz
    I recently watched a programme on TV and was about the organising of the Pomp on State occasions.
    As I have usually been against the cost I was being my critical self until one of the organisers said to the Interviewer

    "Nobody does it like us".

    That"ll do me.

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    Default Re: The Queen is dead. Long live the King.

    They even have a spare hearse.

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    Default Re: The Queen is dead. Long live the King.

    i guess it official, they have informed her bees.

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