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Thread: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

  1. #36
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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Well, there could be some wiggle room if you squint real hard and cock your head sideways. Section 3 was intended to disqualify former Confederates from holding office. The attack on the capitol wasn't of the same order as the secession of the Confederacy and the Civil War, but that's incompetence, not intent. An ineffective insurrection with a couple of deaths is better than one that almost succeeded and resulted in 600,000 corpses, but I think it's still insurrection, and that's what the judge ruled. I'd be interested in what Boatbum thinks.

    The really interesting point is if Mr Trump's actions rise to the level of 'giving aid and comfort to an insurrection'. I think they certainly do, but YMMV.
    Of all the things with the judgement, that is the most significant, IMO.
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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    But the constitution says this:

    Eligibility for a state office should be determined by a state court, yes?
    Ordinarily, yes. But remember, this is Reconstruction, which is exceptional. A massive federal intervention in the governments of states -- constitutional -- made necessary by massive rebellion. Which logically implies the power of the federal government to disqualify someone for state office. Like an ex-rebel traitor as Governor of Georgia. Engage in rebellion against the United States, and the United States has the power to fix your business, if your state won't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    But that's a procedural issue, and likely the fellow will appeal to a federal court.
    Jurisdictional. No appeal to fed court from state court. He will file a federal suit for an injunction of the state court, which will denied, because injunction is an equitable remedy, prerequisite to which is, no adequate remedy at law. The remedy of appeal to New Mexico's appeals courts is available and adequate. If he loses there, then he can go federal, but it won't be an appeal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    The larger issue is whether participating in the January 6th attempt to overturn the presidential election by force qualifies as 'insurrection or rebellion against the United States'.
    And who has what power to declare it so. That's where the Findings of Fact come in. Even a federal court can't mess with those.

    Here's how it would go: Griffin loses all appeals in New Mexico, then files a lawsuit in federal court for an injunction of the enforcement of the order disqualifying him for office. The question will not be whether there was an insurrection nor whether Griffin participated. The question will be whether the disqualification was legal, i.e. whether the lawsuit was allowed under the 14th amendment, and whether all the procedural requirements were met. The insurrection and his participation in it are facts.
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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    My take is that he took an oath to support the Constitution.
    He tried to overturn or prevent a Constitutional process.
    That is enough to make him unfit for office.
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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    What is to rule? They are either 35 or not. You're not making any sense.
    I think you are missing my point Nick. Since it is a constitutional requirement the age of eligibility is a federal requirement. As such it is for the federal government, not the state, to verify, or rule, or determine (or whatever word you want to insert here) whether or not a candidate has or has not met the age requirement. The state and its courts would have no say in the matter.

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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Same as where they were born then?

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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    I think you are missing my point Nick. Since it is a constitutional requirement the age of eligibility is a federal requirement. As such it is for the federal government, not the state, to verify, or rule, or determine (or whatever word you want to insert here) whether or not a candidate has or has not met the age requirement. The state and its courts would have no say in the matter.
    Your argument has no merit.
    It is a matter of fact, they are, or they are not 35. No ruling is required by anyone.
    Just as in this Giffin case, there are "findings of fact" which now cannot be challenged by anyone whether they are facts.
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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post

    Here's how it would go: Griffin loses all appeals in New Mexico, then files a lawsuit in federal court for an injunction of the enforcement of the order disqualifying him for office. The question will not be whether there was an insurrection nor whether Griffin participated. The question will be whether the disqualification was legal, i.e. whether the lawsuit was allowed under the 14th amendment, and whether all the procedural requirements were met. The insurrection and his participation in it are facts.
    But he was not found guilty of insurrection only trespassing. I believe that a couple of the people were charged with insurrection, but I can't seem to find any information about it at this time. As far as I know, no one has been convicted of insurrection - if someone has information on this please let me know. So how does a state remove someone for participation in an insurrection if neither he nor anyone else has been convicted of insurrection? Insurrection a federal law and it is up to the feds to determine if someone has broken this law.

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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    But he was not found guilty of insurrection only trespassing. I believe that a couple of the people were charged with insurrection, but I can't seem to find any information about it at this time. As far as I know, no one has been convicted of insurrection - if someone has information on this please let me know. So how does a state remove someone for participation in an insurrection if neither he nor anyone else has been convicted of insurrection? Insurrection a federal law and it is up to the feds to determine if someone has broken this law.
    Pay attention do.
    Being charged and tried for anything is irrelevant.
    Go back and read the discussion do.
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  9. #44
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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    My take is that he took an oath to support the Constitution.
    He tried to overturn or prevent a Constitutional process.
    That is enough to make him unfit for office.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    But he was not found guilty of insurrection only trespassing. I believe that a couple of the people were charged with insurrection, but I can't seem to find any information about it at this time. As far as I know, no one has been convicted of insurrection - if someone has information on this please let me know. So how does a state remove someone for participation in an insurrection if neither he nor anyone else has been convicted of insurrection? Insurrection a federal law and it is up to the feds to determine if someone has broken this law.
    Trespassing and as such was participating in an event which was intended to disrupt a constitutional process.
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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    Trespassing and as such was participating in an event which was intended to disrupt a constitutional process.
    How has it been established that there was intent? Has anyone been found guilty of breaking a law in which the definition includes the "intent to disrupt a constitutional process" As I understand it, the intent issue is pretty big and accounts for why many have not actually been charged with crimes more serious than trespassing such as sedition.

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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    How has it been established that there was intent? Has anyone been found guilty of breaking a law in which the definition includes the "intent to disrupt a constitutional process" As I understand it, the intent issue is pretty big and accounts for why many have not actually been charged with crimes more serious than trespassing such as sedition.
    Where have you been, sins 2021?

    You cannot be serious!

    I suggest that you read this: https://www.citizensforethics.org/wp...ed-3-21-22.pdf
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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    How has it been established that there was intent? Has anyone been found guilty of breaking a law in which the definition includes the "intent to disrupt a constitutional process" As I understand it, the intent issue is pretty big and accounts for why many have not actually been charged with crimes more serious than trespassing such as sedition.
    As Keith said, that was the judge's finding.

    Can you see any other purpose for the events of January 6th other than to intimidate Congress and the VP during the process of counting electoral votes? Why didn't these activities happen right after the election? On the 5th of January? There is a reason that the events of the day of the 6th - the rally, the march, the breach of Congress, etc. were organized to happen on that day.

    The judge wasn't fooled into thinking otherwise.

    But keep throwing out the whataboutism.
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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Again, the Constitution says:

    Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.
    The relevant question is whether participating in the violent attack on the US Capitol constitutes 'insurrection or rebellion against the United States', and who decides. Being convicted of sedition isn't required; the language was originally intended to apply to Confederate soldiers, none of whom were ever charged with sedition. Mr Griffin obviously participated, and he had previously taken the specified oath. Boatbum, what do you think? Was it an insurrection or not?
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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    There you go, asking difficult questions. You're trying to make DaBums head go boom?
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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    As Keith said, that was the judge's finding.

    Can you see any other purpose for the events of January 6th other than to intimidate Congress and the VP during the process of counting electoral votes? Why didn't these activities happen right after the election? On the 5th of January? There is a reason that the events of the day of the 6th - the rally, the march, the breach of Congress, etc. were organized to happen on that day.

    The judge wasn't fooled into thinking otherwise.

    But keep throwing out the whataboutism.
    Whataboutism? You are not even using it appropriately and it is a long overused phrase when people don't want to deal with facts.

    So by your thinking, if a state has a law that says you cannot possesses a drivers license if you have not paid all your federal taxes and the IRS audits you but does not charge you with filing a fraudulent return a state judge can decide that your actions constituted tax evasion and rescind your license? In what world is that fair, reasonable or legal.

    Being "organized" says nothing about intent. I have know idea what the intent was, but if you can't PROVE intent then there is little that can be done.


    Insurrection also falls under the same suite of federal laws as sedition, and the two can be difficult to distinguish. But it is charged by federal prosecutors far more rarely—almost never in American history. It means, essentially, to incite, assist in or engage in a full-on rebellion against the government: a step beyond just conspiring against it, and requiring that significant violence be involved.

    Cliven Bundy, a Nevada rancher, mounted an armed standoff with the federal government in 2014—his son, Ammon Bundy, did the same in Oregon in 2016—on the basis of an explicitly anti-U.S. government philosophy. Still, prosecutors did not charge them with insurrection, which legal experts say is nearly impossible to prove in court.
    https://www.themarshallproject.org/2...ction-legalese

    The key point here is that insurrection is a federal law and no one has yet to be found guilty of an insurrection and it is the federal government that must determine and prosecute for this act. So how do you determine that someone committed insurrection with no finding of guilt?

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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    The removal clause of the 14th Amendment is, of course, constitutional. However, the fact that removal extends to state officials, by the state, means that the states don't have to wait around for the Feds to convict for sedition. A state court can find, as a fact, that the defendant (in a civil suit brought by an ordinary citizen of the state) engaged in sedition. That appears to be what happened here. No federal involvement, civil or criminal, from start to finish.

    If this weren't the case, only the Feds could remove someone from state office, which would mean that it would bypass any involvement by the state in the removal of one of its own officers, which would go against federalism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post

    Being "organized" says nothing about intent. I have know idea what the intent was, but if you can't PROVE intent then there is little that can be done.


    The key point here is that insurrection is a federal law and no one has yet to be found guilty of an insurrection and it is the federal government that must determine and prosecute for this act. So how do you determine that someone committed insurrection with no finding of guilt?
    Two things.
    Osborne nails it
    If you had read the transcript of the findings, you will have seen that Giffin promoted, organized, and participated in the attack in the Capitol of the 6th. That is intent, tested and proven. All of which is evidenced by testimony and videos. That is why there are "findings of fact", and comply with the due process.
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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    ....

    Let's break it down for you. In New Mexico, if you are an elected official in the state (which Couy Griffin was):

    The Constitution of the State of New Mexico Article XX Section 1.(Oath of Officer.), reads, “Every person elected or appointed to any office shall, before entering upon his duties take and subscribe to an oath or affirmation that he will support the constitution of the United States and the constitution and laws of this state, and that he will faithfully and impartially discharge the duties of his office to the best of his ability.”

    Let's note the overlap here - why does a state official need to swear an oath including the Constitution of the United States? Hmmm..

    Here's the third section of the 14th amendment to the Constitution that Couy swore to uphold:

    Section 3.
    No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.
    Where, does Article 14, Section 3 require "intent"? It does not. It simply references actions.

    Here's Griffin's own statements - some on or around January 6th:


    Griffin: “I would never encourage or promote anyone breaking the law and acting in a way to disrupt the government.”

    Footage: Griffin pumping his fist and encouraging the mob as it yelled “Heave ho, heave ho,” while it broke down a door leading to the chambers.

    Griffin in court: “I had no violent intent on Jan. 6.”
    Footage with quotes from the bus tour organized by Women for America First to drum up support for Jan. 6:

    • ”It feels to me like we’re a nation at war.”
    • ”If you don’t win it at the ballot box, win it in the streets.”
    • ”It’s a war we cannot lose. Every card is on the table.”
    • ”We will hunt down the RHINOS.”
    • ”If he (Pence) doesn’t (send the results back to the states) he’s going to have to find a real dark hole to climb into.”


    Griffin in court: “I’m trying to save America, not destroy America…All we wanted was to have our voices heard.”
    Footage: Griffin at the event: “I love the smell of napalm in the morning.”
    Griffin’s social media account shared the day after the event as he encouraged his followers to return for the inauguration: “Blood will run from the Capitol.”
    Read the above twice. Where is "win it in the streets" in the Constitution? Supporting the idea of Pence sending results back to the states would be tampering with a Constitutional process - the counting of the votes. That seems very clear.

    New Mexico citizens filed suit in state court. The suit was heard by the judge. The judge reviewed what was presented and determined that Griffin had participated in an event which engaged in insurrection against the Constitution.

    Griffin was in violation of his state oath. The remedy is pretty clear to me.
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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Again, the Constitution says:

    The relevant question is whether participating in the violent attack on the US Capitol constitutes 'insurrection or rebellion against the United States', and who decides. Being convicted of sedition isn't required; the language was originally intended to apply to Confederate soldiers, none of whom were ever charged with sedition. Mr Griffin obviously participated, and he had previously taken the specified oath. Boatbum, what do you think? Was it an insurrection or not?
    When does a protest cross the line into an attempt to overturn the outcome? When people were "protesting" outside Kavanaugh's house were they trying to influence the outcome of a case? And if that was their intent were they violating federal law? I would like to hear your thought on this.

    I think some, possibly all, of the Proud Boys were trying to overturn the outcome so yes, Jan 6 was an insurrection. I do not believe that everyone there came with the same intent. Right now I think there are a handful of people charged with sedition and none with insurrection. It has been 18 months, when will someone actually be charged with insurrection and if no one is changed and convicted of insurrection, it it still an insurrection?

    I will leave you with that, I'm done for the night.

    Best,
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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    I think the lack of an insurrection charge is linked to the reluctance to charge an ex President with anything that might see him doing time. Precedent.

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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    And the apologists will cause Sophistry to run in the gutters of the WBF...
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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    When does a protest cross the line into an attempt to overturn the outcome? When people were "protesting" outside Kavanaugh's house were they trying to influence the outcome of a case? And if that was their intent were they violating federal law? I would like to hear your thought on this.
    Protesting outside his house might be rude, but it's protected by the Constitution. Had they broken in making threats to hang him, while he barely managed to jump out the window and run away, that would be another matter.

    Had the folks on January 6th simply protested outside the Capitol, this would not be an issue at all, no matter how much noise they made and how obnoxious they were.
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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Protesting outside his house might be rude, but it's protected by the Constitution. Had they broken in making threats to hang him, while he barely managed to jump out the window and run away, that would be another matter.

    Had the folks on January 6th simply protested outside the Capitol, this would not be an issue at all, no matter how much noise they made and how obnoxious they were.
    Ironically, it's actually going to turn out to have been a good thing, in the long run, that the capitol riot happened and the capitol was breached at a critical moment for the electoral process and the transition of power. It gives everyone a chance to see where all the real subversion exists, opening a lot people's eyes who have been clueless otherwise, through no fault other than not being pre-occupied with politics and current events. So now all the ugly dirty laundry is getting aired, spooks are coming out of the closet, MAGAts are slithering out of the woodwork, and there is real ongoing debate about trmp and the Rs and the SCOTUS etc. And we have enough of a genuine threat to our democracy now apparent, for the effort to pre-empt the thing that trmp and mcconnnell et al were trying for all along and working for for decades. So in effect, we'll be all that stronger for having put it down and survived it and moved on, shoring up what has been apparently taken for granted for too long by too many.



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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Very good news.

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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post

    I will leave you with that, I'm done for the night.

    Best,
    Mr. Bum
    Can someone nip round and take his shovel away whist he sleeps, please?
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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Protesting outside his house might be rude, but it's protected by the Constitution. Had they broken in making threats to hang him, while he barely managed to jump out the window and run away, that would be another matter.

    Had the folks on January 6th simply protested outside the Capitol, this would not be an issue at all, no matter how much noise they made and how obnoxious they were.
    I agree with Keith. I think certain constitutionally protected protests are very bad, but should be protected.

    As to the Jan 6th, it went from protest to insurection when they stormed the Capitol building. That building is the true center of our sovereignty.
    Attacking that is a literal attack on our country. I said that afternoon, and I stand by it today: anyone unauthorized in that building, that day, should have been led off in handcuffs. Everyone if them should be in prison right now dealing with a long sentence. It was a act of treason.

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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    But he was not found guilty of insurrection only trespassing. I believe that a couple of the people were charged with insurrection, but I can't seem to find any information about it at this time. As far as I know, no one has been convicted of insurrection - if someone has information on this please let me know. So how does a state remove someone for participation in an insurrection if neither he nor anyone else has been convicted of insurrection? Insurrection a federal law and it is up to the feds to determine if someone has broken this law.
    You're not disqualified because you're guilty of insurrection. You're disqualified if you engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the nation, or gave aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. A guilty verdict comes from a prosecution for crime; disqualification comes from a civil action.

    You can be acquitted of a criminal charge of insurrection and disqualifed on ground of insurrection. The first is a criminal statute, the second is in the Constitution. Statutes do not constrain the Constitution.

    I don't know how much plainer it can be put.

    Congress disqualified a socialist mayor on grounds of what they called "disloyalty". He had no conviction for sedition or rebellion or giving comfort to the enemy. Didn't matter then and nothing has changed.

    This is one piece of Reconstruction that lives on. Feds: "Like we care if some yokel KKK court acquits." States: "Like we have to wait for the Feds to convict before we can remove our own officials. Otherwise, we're helpless to prevent the KKK taking over our state."
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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Protesting outside his house might be rude, but it's protected by the Constitution. Had they broken in making threats to hang him, while he barely managed to jump out the window and run away, that would be another matter.

    Had the folks on January 6th simply protested outside the Capitol, this would not be an issue at all, no matter how much noise they made and how obnoxious they were.
    I agree with Keith. I think certain constitutionally protected protests are very bad, but should be protected.

    As to the Jan 6th, it went from protest to insurection when they stormed the Capitol building. That building is the true center of our sovereignty.
    Attacking that is a literal attack on our country. I said that afternoon, and I stand by it today: anyone unauthorized in that building, that day, should have been led off in handcuffs. Everyone if them should be in prison right now dealing with a long sentence. It was a act of treason.

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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Protesting outside his house might be rude, but it's protected by the Constitution. Had they broken in making threats to hang him, while he barely managed to jump out the window and run away, that would be another matter.

    Had the folks on January 6th simply protested outside the Capitol, this would not be an issue at all, no matter how much noise they made and how obnoxious they were.
    The law, enacted by Congress in 1950, makes it illegal to picket or parade with “the intent of influencing any judge, juror, witness, or court officer, in the discharge” …

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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    It's the state determining the criteria for 'insurrection' as well as whether or not the person engaged in it. A defense counsel could argue that it wasn't, of course, as in any legal case. If the Fed. Court one day finds that it wasn't an insurrection then the defense would have a stronger case but still require the state court to agree.
    Rick

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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    It's the state determining the criteria for 'insurrection' as well as whether or not the person engaged in it. A defense counsel could argue that it wasn't, of course, as in any legal case. If the Fed. Court one day finds that it wasn't an insurrection then the defense would have a stronger case but still require the state court to agree.
    I would suggest that the presiding judge, Mathew, Francis J is an experienced enough lawyer to know the meaning of the word "insurrection".
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    You're completely missing the point. Which is, that it's not, in this case up to the Federal Court to decide whether or not Jan 6 was insurrection. For a state ruling, as described by the OP, it's up to that state. For the sake of the ruling, the state or judge or both must have a definition of 'insurrection'. If they're happy with their own, generic definition, that's fine. But they could (unlikely but possible) decide that it's only insurrection if the Federal Court rules that it was so.
    Rick

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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    You're completely missing the point. Which is, that it's not, in this case up to the Federal Court to decide whether or not Jan 6 was insurrection. For a state ruling, as described by the OP, it's up to that state. For the sake of the ruling, the state or judge or both must have a definition of 'insurrection'. If they're happy with their own, generic definition, that's fine. But they could (unlikely but possible) decide that it's only insurrection if the Federal Court rules that it was so.
    Why would they? The presiding judge knows his stuff and has the authority to hear a civil case.
    P.S. lawyers don't use "generic" their job is to be precise in the use of words. So there is no wriggle room, hence the "findings of fact" criteria used to prove the case.
    There is a convention in English law that a new law is not fully complete until it has been tried at a court of law, where the judiciary rules on what the words in the Act actually mean, which is sometimes not what the politicians thought that they mean. That is what I meant by their job is to be precise in the use of words
    Last edited by Peerie Maa; 09-09-2022 at 10:09 AM.
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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    That requirement for precision is where get children the notion of legalism they all use. "You didn't say I couldn't bash him with a bat, only to not hit him, and clearly bashing is different than hitting or why wouldn't you say no bashing?" " It isn't income, it's investment return, so it's only savings."

    Not that precision isn't exactly appropriate because what would the world be like without it, if a judge could reply, "whatever. I find the plaintiff to be a poopyhead. Do what you want as long as it's not evil. Next case."


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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    That requirement for precision is where get children the notion of legalism they all use. "You didn't say I couldn't bash him with a bat, only to not hit him, and clearly bashing is different than hitting or why wouldn't you say no bashing?" " It isn't income, it's investment return, so it's only savings."

    Not that precision isn't exactly appropriate because what would the world be like without it, if a judge could reply, "whatever. I find the plaintiff to be a poopyhead. Do what you want as long as it's not evil. Next case."
    A judge just dismissed Trump's suit against Hillary Clinton, Adam Schiff, and others for "conspiracy to commit injurious falsehood" because there is no such thing in law, though there is in ordinary English.
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    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    .
    The insurrectionist was holding state public office. So of course a state judge made the ruling to disqualify him. I am happy and look forward to the entertainment in following the progress of his appeal. Life should be made difficult for the bastids.
    Last edited by Tom Montgomery; 09-09-2022 at 01:42 PM.
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