Page 1 of 3 12 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 35 of 81

Thread: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    o
    Posts
    10,512

    Default The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    This is huge. It's what we've been waiting for. It should all now be over but the shouting.

    A judge in New Mexico just found a sitting elected official guilty of insurrection. And cited the Constitution's fourteenth amendment section three, which states that an office holder found guilty of insurrection is barred from holding any office of any kind in the US, and is removed immediately from his office. Done and done. You want precedent? This is the one.



    Booyah!


  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Mountain lakes of Vermont
    Posts
    18,008

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Sounds good to me.
    Let's hope it holds after appeals.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.
    Skiing is the next best thing to having wings.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Northeast
    Posts
    20,445

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    This is huge. It's what we've been waiting for. It should all now be over but the shouting.

    A judge in New Mexico just found a sitting elected official guilty of insurrection. And cited the Constitution's fourteenth amendment section three, which states that an office holder found guilty of insurrection is barred from holding any office of any kind in the US, and is removed immediately from his office. Done and done. You want precedent? This is the one.



    Booyah!
    Aw heck. I want to see the whole Famous Footwear inventory fall.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    83,392

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    Sounds good to me.
    Let's hope it holds after appeals.
    ^^^^
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Northeast
    Posts
    20,445

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    Sounds good to me.
    Let's hope it holds after appeals.
    I'm thinking it might hold because he was found guilty of breaching the Capitol on January 6th. Others that they have tried this approach with other individuals with no success - but those individuals don't have convictions regarding January 6th, yet.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    40,155

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    This is a pleasant day. Thank you for sharing that.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

    "Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." - Will Rogers

    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - Groucho Marx

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    10,733

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Population 60,000.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Saint Helena Island, SC
    Posts
    12,598

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    I’m afraid y’all are in for a lot of bitter disappointment. As guilty as trump likely is, nothing is going to happen to him. Nothing.
    Personally I’d like to see him lose in the primaries to a viable GOP candidate.
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Frankfort, MI
    Posts
    10,889

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynard38 View Post
    I’m afraid y’all are in for a lot of bitter disappointment. As guilty as trump likely is, nothing is going to happen to him. Nothing.
    Personally I’d like to see him lose in the primaries to a viable GOP candidate.
    A viable (as in not a seditionist) GOP candidate couldn’t get the nomination.

    Jeff C
    Don’t expect much, and you won’t be disappointed…

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    o
    Posts
    10,512

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by leikec View Post
    A viable (as in not a seditionist) GOP candidate couldn’t get the nomination.

    Jeff C
    For now, but the days of the trmp fever are nearing an end, or are at least peaking. It might take another few election cycles but there will be a sanity and genuine patriotism rebound, and I think trmp's prosecution and inability to do his Svengali rallies will mark his zenith. In another decade he will be reviled generally but for the sort who think Hitler was cheated of his thousand year reich.


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    2 states: NJ and confusion
    Posts
    44,046

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    I'm hesitant to predict, but let's not forget Georgia.
    "Banning books and not guns seems backwards. Can't think of anyone ever shot by a book

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 1999
    Location
    Norwalk, Ohio
    Posts
    34,699

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynard38
    I’m afraid y’all are in for a lot of bitter disappointment. As guilty as trump likely is, nothing is going to happen to him. Nothing.
    Two and a half hours ago I might have agreed with you. No longer. Another shoe has dropped. Trump is toast.
    Last edited by Tom Montgomery; 09-06-2022 at 09:51 PM.
    "I'll tell you why [religion's] not a scam. In my opinion, all right? Tide goes in, tide goes out. Never a miscommunication. You can't explain that."Bill O'Reilly

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,828

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    A judge in New Mexico just found a sitting elected official guilty of insurrection . . .
    Not exactly. It's better than that.

    After his conviction of trespassing a suit was filed by the group Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW) and New Mexico residents under Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution which would bar him from office for life for his participation in the Capitol attack.

    (emphasis added)

    -- wikipedia
    I can't find what the 1869 case was about. The next most recent disqualification, of Victor Berger, was by the House of Reps, citing "disloyalty", citing conviction for espionage. The 14th Am doesn't in terms require a conviction for anything. So there was no conviction for "sedition" in either case.

    The removal clause of the 14th Amendment is, of course, constitutional. However, the fact that removal extends to state officials, by the state, means that the states don't have to wait around for the Feds to convict for sedition. A state court can find, as a fact, that the defendant (in a civil suit brought by an ordinary citizen of the state) engaged in sedition. That appears to be what happened here. No federal involvement, civil or criminal, from start to finish.

    If this weren't the case, only the Feds could remove someone from state office, which would mean that it would bypass any involvement by the state in the removal of one of its own officers, which would go against federalism.

    No requirement of conviction means no presumption of innocence, proof beyond a reasonable doubt, jury trial any of that criminal stuff. Much quicker. More importantly, conviction requires prosecution, which involves considerations that differ from the need to disqualify.

    So it is inaccurate to speak of a "conviction for sedition". If there was one, it was in a different court, and it doesn't matter. That other court could acquit on seditition, and the civil court could still find that the defendant engaged in sedition. A classic case of the meaning of a term varying with the use to which it is put. Sedition as a crime is different from sedition as a ground for disqualification. Similar to, conviction on impeachment is not a conviction of crime.

    There's been a lot of Section 3 activity in the Trumper era:

    On January 10, 2021, Nancy Pelosi, the Speaker of the House, formally requested Representatives' input as to whether to pursue Section 3 disqualification of outgoing President Donald Trump because of his role in the January 6 United States Capitol attack. Unlike impeachment, which requires a supermajority to convict, disqualification under Section 3 would only require a simple majority of each house of Congress.

    The Section 3 disqualification could be imposed by Congress passing a law or a nonbinding resolution stating that the January 6 riot was an insurrection, and that anyone who swore to uphold the Constitution and who incited or participated in the riot is disqualified under Section 3. Some legal experts believe a court would then be required to make a final determination that Trump was disqualified under Section 3. A state may also make a determination that Trump is disqualified under Section 3 from appearing on that state's ballot. Trump could appeal in court any disqualification by Congress or by a state. In addition to state or federal legislative action, a court action could be brought against Trump seeking his disqualification under Section 3.

    On January 11, 2021, Representative Cori Bush (D-MO) and 47 cosponsors introduced a resolution calling for expulsion, under Section 3, of members of Congress who voted against certifying the results of the 2020 US presidential election or incited the January 6 riot. Those named in the resolution included Republican Representatives Mo Brooks of Alabama and Louie Gohmert of Texas, who took part in the rally that preceded the riot, and Republican Senators Josh Hawley of Missouri and Ted Cruz of Texas, who objected to counting electoral votes to certify the 2020 presidential election result.

    After Representative Madison Cawthorn (R-NC) declared his intent to run for re-election in 2022, a group of North Carolina voters from Cawthorn's district filed a lawsuit alleging that a speech he gave immediately prior to the Capitol attack incited it, and, therefore, Section 3 disqualified him from holding federal office. A federal judge entered a preliminary injunction in favor of Cawthorn, citing the Amnesty Act of 1872; however, on May 24, 2022, an appeals court ruled that this law applied only to people who committed "constitutionally wrongful acts" before 1872. A similar challenge, which a federal court declined to block, was filed against Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-GA) and heard in April 2022 in Atlanta. Greene sued to strike down the law that allowed contesting her eligibility as unconstitutional.

    -- wikipedia
    Last edited by Osborne Russell; 09-07-2022 at 01:49 PM. Reason: (emphasis added)
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    o
    Posts
    10,512

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Thanks Osborne. I just stoked now.


  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Sorrento Australia
    Posts
    5,349

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    Two and a half hours ago I might have agreed with you. No longer. Another shoe has dropped. Trump is toast.
    Details regarding the other shoe??
    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. Leonardo da Vinci.

    If war is the answer........... it must be a profoundly stupid question.

    "Freighters on the nod on the surface of the bay, One of these days we're going to sail away"
    Bruce Cockburn

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,828

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    Thanks Osborne. I just stoked now.
    You bet.

    How come the Dems make no noise about it? "Election reform? We're going to remove the *s from office. Show up at the courthouse with your threats and your guns and see what happens."

    Dems punked out with the Bundys in Nevada and Oregon, and here we are.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

  17. #17
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    the hills
    Posts
    67,977

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynard38 View Post
    I’m afraid y’all are in for a lot of bitter disappointment. As guilty as trump likely is, nothing is going to happen to him. Nothing.
    Personally I’d like to see him lose in the primaries to a viable GOP candidate.
    If nothing happens then the Republican Party can straight up acknowledge that national security as a platform statement is pure snake oil hoakum. That stickin it to the liberals shares equal stage to stickin it to the Constitution, the military, the police and every damn institution that takes care of national security and promotes the general welfare. It’ll be which oligarch’s team do you swear allegiance to.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,828

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    "A group of North Carolina voters from Cawthorn's district filed a lawsuit . . . "

    Kind of like impeachment where the bill of impeachment is a civil complaint, and trial is held in a real court, which tolerates no *ing around with procedure. The attorneys don't vote on what the procedure will be. Nobody does. Procedure is the same as if it was a car crash case.

    Reconstruction, 150 years after. Then, Confederate seditionists; now, Republican seditionists. The people of a state are not obliged to wait upon the Feds to run them out; nor are the Feds obliged to accept any bigoted yokel seditionist the people of the state send to Washington.

    But's it not "democracy". The people may vote on whether to bring the action, but if the vote is no, some guy says fine, I'll go it alone. The disposition of the action is by the court, where there is no voting.

    Republic, not a democracy.
    Last edited by Osborne Russell; 09-07-2022 at 02:07 PM.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Saint Helena Island, SC
    Posts
    12,598

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    It’ll be which oligarch’s team do you swear allegiance to.
    Which was Putin’s goal all along.
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,828

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynard38 View Post
    Which was Putin’s goal all along.
    Yep.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    2,218

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    This is huge. It's what we've been waiting for. It should all now be over but the shouting.

    A judge in New Mexico just found a sitting elected official guilty of insurrection. And cited the Constitution's fourteenth amendment section three, which states that an office holder found guilty of insurrection is barred from holding any office of any kind in the US, and is removed immediately from his office. Done and done. You want precedent? This is the one.



    Booyah!
    I doubt it will hold up in appeal. You have a state judge declaring an insurrection which is a federal offense. Also, the commissioner involved was only found guilty of trespassing in federal court.

    If he had been found guilty of insurrection in a federal court, the judge might have the power to remove him from his position at the state level. Just my 2 cents

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Northeast
    Posts
    20,445

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    I doubt it will hold up in appeal. You have a state judge declaring an insurrection which is a federal offense. Also, the commissioner involved was only found guilty of trespassing in federal court.

    If he had been found guilty of insurrection in a federal court, the judge might have the power to remove him from his position at the state level. Just my 2 cents
    The state judge was applying a decision about a county official. The judge determined that the official violated a Federal law which disqualifies him for any office - from one-horse-town dogcatcher to president. I'm sure it will be appealed and go to the federal judiciary. The biggest question is, was what Couy Griffin was involved in covered by the 14th.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  23. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,828

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    No conviction for anything is required.

    Crimes are defined by statutes, i.e. by the legislature. This is the Constitution, the supreme law. What statutes exist or don't exist cannot touch it.

    Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may, by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.
    You can't be a Dog Catcher in Spudsville if you "have engaged in insurrection or rebellion" if you lose one of these cases against you, if it was the only time you were ever in court in your life, and if all statutes dealing with "insurrection or rebellion" were repealed. That would give the legislature the power to negate the Constitution, and that is not allowed.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    2,218

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    The state judge was applying a decision about a county official. The judge determined that the official violated a Federal law which disqualifies him for any office - from one-horse-town dogcatcher to president. I'm sure it will be appealed and go to the federal judiciary. The biggest question is, was what Couy Griffin was involved in covered by the 14th.
    I'm afraid that is a task for the DOJ and a federal judge. State judges cannot find someone guilty of a federal offense. Much less one in which his only federal conviction was for trespassing. He has not been convicted of insurrection so the state law would not cover this situation. If he had been found guilty of insurrection then the judge would have a basis for his ruling. It will not likely survive a challenge.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Northeast
    Posts
    20,445

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    I'm afraid that is a task for the DOJ and a federal judge. State judges cannot find someone guilty of a federal offense. Much less one in which his only federal conviction was for trespassing. He has not been convicted of insurrection so the state law would not cover this situation. If he had been found guilty of insurrection then the judge would have a basis for his ruling. It will not likely survive a challenge.
    This is where insurrectionists have a problem. That's what this judge did - he defined what was done as falling under that law. He's enforcing it for a state officer at a state level based on a filing brought by citizens of the state, so he's staying in his lane.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  26. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,828

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    I'm afraid that is a task for the DOJ and a federal judge. State judges cannot find someone guilty of a federal offense.
    No one is being found guilty of anything. This concerns eligibility to hold office, can't you see? Like being 35 years old to be President. And native born. I know you know that one. If it turns out the guy is disqualified for being 34, what has he been convicted of?

    It's a lawsuit to determine eligibility; not a prosecution, of anyone, for anything. Like impeachment isn't a prosecution of anyone for anything. You can tell because the state isn't the plaintiff. The only plaintiff in a prosecution is the state, or the feds.

    2. The Plaintiffs are Marco White, Mark Mitchell, and Leslie Lakind (“Plaintiffs”).
    3. Plaintiff Marco White is a resident of Santa Fe County, New Mexico.
    4. Plaintiff Mark Mitchell is a resident of Los Alamos County, New Mexico.
    5. Plaintiff Leslie Lakind is a resident of Santa Fe County, New Mexico.
    6. As private persons and citizens of the State of New Mexico, Plaintiffs have standing
    to bring this Complaint . . .
    for Quo Warranto Relief, since Defendant’s office is a county position.
    See NMSA 1978, § 44-3-4; State ex rel. Martinez v. Padilla, 1980-NMSC-064, ¶ 8, 94 N.M. 431,
    434 (explaining that a “private person” may bring a quo warranto action “when the office usurped
    pertains to a county, incorporated village, town or city, or school district”).
    --
    8. This Court has jurisdiction in quo warranto against elected officials in New Mexico
    under Article VI, Section 13 of the New Mexico Constitution and Chapter 44, Article 3 of the New
    Mexico Statutes. An action for quo warranto may be brought “when any person shall unlawfully
    hold . . . any public office” in the State, NMSA 1978, § 44-3-4(A), or “when any public officer,
    civil or military, shall have done or suffered an act which, by the provisions of law, shall work a
    forfeiture of his office,” id. § 44-3-4(B). “One of the primary purposes of quo warranto is to
    ascertain whether one is constitutionally authorized to hold the office he claims, whether by
    election or appointment, and [courts] must liberally interpret the quo warranto statutes to effectuate
    that purpose.”

    https://www.citizensforethics.org/wp...ed-3-21-22.pdf
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,828

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Findings of Fact, Conclusions of Law And Judgment

    https://www.citizensforethics.org/wp...73-griffin.pdf
    This will give some of the flavor of the 49 page ruling:

    Mr. Griffin's attempts by his arguments, including his closing argument, to sanitize his actions are without merit and contrary to the evidence produced by the Plaintiffs, bearing in mind that he produced no evidence himself in his own defense. His protestations and his characterizations of his actions and the events of January 6, 2021 are not credible and amounted to nothing more than attempting to put lipstick on a pig.
    But I urge you all to read the whole thing.

    Griffin offering no evidence is big. No claim can be made on appeal that the court excluded his evidence or misconstrued it or some other bull S. Because none was ever offerred ha ha ha, ha ha ha

    There is a shipload of findings of fact, which set out the factual basis of the decision. Each finding is a judicial act, part of the judgment, not a mere citizen's or commentator's opinion, but something that only a judge can pronounce. Findings of fact are conclusive on appeal, so we're not going over them all again. If the trial court makes a finding of fact that the light was green, it was green. Period.

    In the Prop 8 litigation in California (Anti-gay-marriage initiative) the judge, in striking it down, put forth a truly awesome set of findings of fact for that reason -- to prevent squirreling on appeal.

    THe findings of fact in this case are similarly amazing. Essentially, "There was sedition, conspiracy, rebellion, and plenty of it." It's practically a summary of the Jan 6 Committee hearings with Liz Cheney, converted to a bullet list of items being found to be facts by a judge. 49 pages. Far more meaningful to the public discourse than a mere conviction for crime. Including the finding of fact that "Couy Griffin is not a credible witness." A guilty verdict for sedition would never say "this guy is attempting to put lipstick on a pig."

    For example:

    12. President Trump did not accept the election results and pursued multiple avenues to remain in power through legal and extra legal means . . .

    (emphasis added)
    That is a stomper of a finding, elaborated by the others -- essentially, "Trump was part of the insurrection, before, during and after Jan 6; this chump Griffin was only a part of it, but that's enough." That would never be part of a criminal verdict unless Trump were the defendant, and those facts were necessary to support conviction; whereas, in these 14th Amendment disqualification cases, any number of courts can say so, in each case where some one of his incitees -- suckers, abundant and expendable -- is the lone schmuck defendant, without everyone having to P themselves over "precedent" and the "specialness" of a former President.

    Let's see how much money Trump and/or the GOP kicks in for their defense. The local GOP committee says, "Gee, you worked hard, raised a lot of money for us and showed promise as a candidate we could back, but you had to go and be an A hole on Jan 6. Now you can't even be an elector, let alone an office holder. How about assistant to the office manager? Tsk, but, thanks for everything, keep on dreaming. Next aspirant, please!"
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    o
    Posts
    10,512

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Big ol wheel of karma keep on spinning. Some of that noise we’re just starting to hear is the sputtering of these wannabe pseudo patriots after hearing their consequences, “but, but, but…”


  29. #29
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    2,218

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    No one is being found guilty of anything. This concerns eligibility to hold office, can't you see? Like being 35 years old to be President. And native born. I know you know that one. If it turns out the guy is disqualified for being 34, what has he been convicted of?

    It's a lawsuit to determine eligibility; not a prosecution, of anyone, for anything. Like impeachment isn't a prosecution of anyone for anything. You can tell because the state isn't the plaintiff. The only plaintiff in a prosecution is the state, or the feds.

    Yes, but it would be the federal court or perhaps congress which would have to rule on the person's ineligibility due to age. It would not be a matter for a state court. You're not making any sense

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    62,270

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    But the constitution says this:

    Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.
    Eligibility for a state office should be determined by a state court, yes?

    But that's a procedural issue, and likely the fellow will appeal to a federal court. The larger issue is whether participating in the January 6th attempt to overturn the presidential election by force qualifies as 'insurrection or rebellion against the United States'. I think it's about as obvious as a thing can possibly be that it does. What do you think?
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 09-08-2022 at 11:34 AM.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Northeast
    Posts
    20,445

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Yes, but it would be the federal court or perhaps congress which would have to rule on the person's ineligibility due to age. It would not be a matter for a state court. You're not making any sense
    Why wouldn't a state court rule on the eligibility of a state official's ability to serve in their post in a case brought by state residents?

    Still don't see it.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  32. #32
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    59,347

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Yes, but it would be the federal court or perhaps congress which would have to rule on the person's ineligibility due to age. It would not be a matter for a state court. You're not making any sense
    What is to rule? They are either 35 or not. You're not making any sense.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    59,347

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    But the constitution says this:
    Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.
    Eligibility for a state office should be determined by a state court, yes?

    But that's a procedural issue, and likely the fellow will appeal to a federal court. The larger issue is whether participating in the January 6th attempt to overturn the presidential election by force qualifies as 'insurrection or rebellion against the United States'. I think it's about as obvious as a thing can possibly be that it does. What do you think?
    It does not state who shall apply the test, it just stets out what the criteria are. There are words in the Constitution that suggest if the Constitution is silent on an issue, the States are free to decide. So they did.
    Also, Congress people and Representatives are State officials, so the only question is whether a State has authority to disbar POTUS.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Norwalk CT
    Posts
    2,799

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    But the constitution says this:

    Eligibility for a state office should be determined by a state court, yes?

    But that's a procedural issue, and likely the fellow will appeal to a federal court. The larger issue is whether participating in the January 6th attempt to overturn the presidential election by force qualifies as 'insurrection or rebellion against the United States'. I think it's about as obvious as a thing can possibly be that it does. What do you think?
    Its obvious to just about anybody thats not wearing one of those dumb-ass MAGA hats. However if you happen to be a US Senator and member of the GOP it might be a bit beyond your level of comprehensions....

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    62,270

    Default Re: The big damn shoe has finally dropped. This is it.

    Well, there could be some wiggle room if you squint real hard and cock your head sideways. Section 3 was intended to disqualify former Confederates from holding office. The attack on the capitol wasn't of the same order as the secession of the Confederacy and the Civil War, but that's incompetence, not intent. An ineffective insurrection with a couple of deaths is better than one that almost succeeded and resulted in 600,000 corpses, but I think it's still insurrection, and that's what the judge ruled. I'd be interested in what Boatbum thinks.

    The really interesting point is if Mr Trump's actions rise to the level of 'giving aid and comfort to an insurrection'. I think they certainly do, but YMMV.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •