Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 35 of 51

Thread: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2022
    Location
    Anacortes WA USA
    Posts
    61

    Default Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    Does anyone here in the PNW know of anyone who might design and possibly build me a single masted junk rig for my existing 10.5 ft dinghy?
    I would prefer to have someone to look over my boat and work with me to some extent rather than try to design/trial and re-do things repeatedly (and clumsily) on my own.
    I realize that it's overly complicated running rigging wise for such a small boat but still interested in trying the rig.

    If nothing else, does anyone have a contact for a sail maker who is experienced in building small junk sails, flat or cambered? Someone between Seattle and Bellingham including of course, Port Townsend.

    I may try the cheapo tape a tarp together flat sail method as per the ductworks's "Sailing Auklet" article for a 40 sq.ft.+ trial sail to see if I would even like a junk sail on this dinghy.

    Here is the article:
    https://sailingauklet.com/2018/12/26...ig-conversion/
    My present sail is approx. 46 sq ft Sprit Rig.

    My wife and I sailed on Allen and Sharie Farrell's "China Cloud" which was my lst exposure to the rig and I've remained intrigued ever since. I was anchored next to "Bertie" so must have been there at the same time their YouTube video was filmed. It was a real rush to "trip over" those videos recently! I spent time with Allen onboard helping him with hauling his dory on deck just prior to his passing. I will always treasure the 3 times we met up and visited together.

    I've read "Practical Junk Rig" and the Van Loan books among other sources but being an old dude of minimal math skills and building skills, would rather have someone knowledgable to help with a rig and sail build if I were to proceed.

    Thanks if anyone can help with a contact or two? Cheers.
    DP

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    59,299

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    Massively overcomplicated for a small boat rig. Working the sheet lines is a bear, I believe. Not really to be undertaken when steering a 10' dingy in a chop.
    Just use a balanced lug and KISS.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Uki, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    35,574

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    I suggest you join the Junk Rig Association.
    https://junkrigassociation.org/
    If you are on Facebook there is a group called International Junk Rig: sailing old and new.
    without freedom of speech, we wouldn't know who the idiots are.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2022
    Location
    Anacortes WA USA
    Posts
    61

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    I suggest you join the Junk Rig Association.
    https://junkrigassociation.org/
    If you are on Facebook there is a group called International Junk Rig: sailing old and new.
    Thanks, I'm in the process of doing that. I've read their public forums/site for some time.

    The vast majority of their membership seem to be on other continents so figured I'd inquire here in the meantime about a PNW based contact who's already done this.

    I would like to experience using the rig on the the 10.5 footer to see if it's something I'd like to take to a larger boat later. 15-18'.

    A balanced Lug rig is the most likely choice for this boat as it's final rig and would appreciate the same contact(s) info. for someone who could build the rig/sail for me and do any other modifications to the dinghy, (fiberglass hull but lots of wood) in Western WA.

    I like the ability to reef instantly and "shift gears" back and forth with the Junk.
    There have been a lot of dinghies in the 10 to 12 ft range that have "real" sails and graceful classic hull forms as opposed to the rather goofy Portland Pudgy and it's taped tarp experiment.
    With single sheeting and a short boomkin if a traveler line or rail isn't enough, the running rigging is above and behind you and similar to my present sprit rig sheeting angles.

    So... thought I"d explore the possibilities and if it doesn't work out I'll likely go with a balanced lug which would be better to windward than the flat sail. The modern cambered sail would be good to windward but that's really getting complicated.

    Does anyone know the folks in this link? Sounds like they're still in Port Townsend but no last names were given in the link:
    https://www.pocketyachters.com/roger-jo-walkabout

    Thanks again.
    Last edited by Dinghy Pipedreams; 09-02-2022 at 01:32 AM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Palo Alto, California
    Posts
    548

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    Several years ago there was a Potter 14 in the Bay Area that had a junk rig. The sail area was too small but it did work nicely. However, as someone noted, it definitely failed the KISS test. It was done more as a novelty than an attempt at a better rig for those peculiar little boats.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Aquitaine
    Posts
    2,361

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    For sails on a small boat, Todd Bradshaw is your man.
    Last edited by Andrew2; 09-05-2022 at 12:25 PM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Duncan, Vancouver Island
    Posts
    29,385

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    How about a pseudo junk rig, ie fully battended with a reef or two that could be tied in at the battens?
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Madison Wisconsin
    Posts
    10,713

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    CL6.jpg It could be done, but I think you will find that it is easier to deal with in that size range if you just sail it with a single sheet as technically a balanced lug. I'm posting from my tablet, so we will see if the photo works.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    59,299

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Bradshaw View Post
    CL6.jpg It could be done, but I think you will find that it is easier to deal with in that size range if you just sail it with a single sheet as technically a balanced lug. I'm posting from my tablet, so we will see if the photo works.
    Tried out by the Victorian yotties, who lurrrved complexity, published by Dixon Kemp. I expect that it's better with modern flexible battens.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2022
    Location
    Anacortes WA USA
    Posts
    61

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    Thanks for the pic, Todd . I would be interested in a fully battened Balanced Lug to combine the two rig's pros/cons. The older threads here I could find seemed to have fully battened Lug rigs hard to deal with when reefing, etc. and some went back to unbattened.
    Any experiences members have/had with fully battened lug rigs then or more recently would be read with interest. It's the instant reefing/ unreeling on the fly aspect that appeals.

    Ian Oughtred's "favorite rig" paragraph here also tweaked my interest:
    MY FAVORITE RIG would have a fully-battened sail, which is what I grew up with. It appeared long ago on the International 10 Square Meter canoes, the elegant German Renjollen of the 1930s, and the Scow Moths. Battens allow the sail to have more roach, which in turn gives a lot of extra sail area, without very long spars. The roach may comprise more than a quarter of the area; in fact, maybe even one third. Full-length battens quiet a sail when tacking and in a strong breeze. With sheets eased, the sail just luffs gently instead of flogging violently. With non-stretchy sail cloth, only a few battens will do the job. I like the way you can always see exactly that the shape and draft in the sail are. These battens are often made of ash or spruce, which are tough woods, but break occasionally. Nowadays, battens are usually of fiberglass in mass-produced class boats, but wood has advantages in that it can be easily trimmed to vary the stiffness. Made thin and flexible near the luff, and fairly stiff towards the leech, wood battens fall naturally into the right aerodynamic shape. In light weather, they can be pushed in tight to encourage them to bow into shape with little or no wind pressure, while in a fresh breeze, the tension may be eased to eliminate wrinkles. Full-length battens have also been used in larger craft, as in Ralph Munroe's famous Egret sharpie. Although such a sail is very well-behaved and efficient, it makes an awkward bundle when removed from the boat.

    Last edited by Dinghy Pipedreams; 09-03-2022 at 12:47 AM.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Uki, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    35,574

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dinghy Pipedreams View Post
    Thanks, I'm in the process of doing that. I've read their public forums/site for some time.

    The vast majority of their membership seem to be on other continents so figured I'd inquire here in the meantime about a PNW based contact who's already done this.

    I would like to experience using the rig on the the 10.5 footer to see if it's something I'd like to take to a larger boat later. 15-18'.

    A balanced Lug rig is the most likely choice for this boat as it's final rig and would appreciate the same contact(s) info. for someone who could build the rig/sail for me and do any other modifications to the dinghy, (fiberglass hull but lots of wood) in Western WA.

    I like the ability to reef instantly and "shift gears" back and forth with the Junk.
    There have been a lot of dinghies in the 10 to 12 ft range that have "real" sails and graceful classic hull forms as opposed to the rather goofy Portland Pudgy and it's taped tarp experiment.
    With single sheeting and a short boomkin if a traveler line or rail isn't enough, the running rigging is above and behind you and similar to my present sprit rig sheeting angles.

    So... thought I"d explore the possibilities and if it doesn't work out I'll likely go with a balanced lug which would be better to windward than the flat sail. The modern cambered sail would be good to windward but that's really getting complicated.

    Does anyone know the folks in this link? Sounds like they're still in Port Townsend but no last names were given in the link:
    https://www.pocketyachters.com/roger-jo-walkabout

    Thanks again.
    I made a 326 sq ft cambered junk rig sail using Arne Kverneland's method and it really wasn't that hard to do.
    without freedom of speech, we wouldn't know who the idiots are.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Madison Wisconsin
    Posts
    10,713

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    I built quite a few fully-battened balanced lugs for customers over the years. One of the nicest things about them is that unlike most sail types, the forward ends of the full battens do not need to be inside a pocket. Both ends of the pockets can be open with just a simple tie to tension the batten. Since luff pockets tend to be one of the major sources for distorted sail shape and eventual repairs, this is a big deal.

    Do note though that the shape that is sewn into them and further reinforced by the battens is pretty much the shape that your sail will always have. You are not likely to be doing much sailshape tweaking to fit the conditions, other than reefing when desired.

    battened-lugs.jpg

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2022
    Location
    Anacortes WA USA
    Posts
    61

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    [QUOTE=Todd Bradshaw;6719809]I built quite a few fully-battened balanced lugs for customers over the years. One of the nicest things about them is that unlike most sail types, the forward ends of the full battens do not need to be inside a pocket. Both ends of the pockets can be open with just a simple tie to tension the batten. Since luff pockets tend to be one of the major sources for distorted sail shape and eventual repairs, this is a big deal.

    Do note though that the shape that is sewn into them and further reinforced by the battens is pretty much the shape that your sail will always have. You are not likely to be doing much sailshape tweaking to fit the conditions, other than reefing when desired.

    ***Thanks very much for your input, Todd. I've followed your posts for a long time and have learned a lot from them (as have we all).

    Regarding fully battened balance lug sails vs. junk rigged:

    With lazy jacks is the quick reefing/unreefing without having to move forward to tie gaskets/ties still possible? Would I still be able to raise and lower the sail "instantly" and "shift gears" in the same manner albeit with a baggier bundle?

    Is the what you see/what you get aspect of the Lug with battens regarding sail shape any/much different than the behavior of a Junk flat sail? Is there better windward performance with the cut of a battened Lug due to some curvature built into the sail?

    I sail in inlets sometimes with strong inflow/outflow winds and surprise gusts (15-20 its.) so that ability is what draws me to the Junk. (70 yrs. old helmsman...)

    What are the principal operational differences other than the lack of sheetlets to the battens?
    The goal is to not have to move forward to reef/unreef, sitting on the sole as "butt ballast" in those conditions. The dinghy is of unknown (original) wood design resembling a fat Whitehall/Penobscot hull-ish form, full keeled with an 8" depth at the aft end if that helps...hiking out is not doable with this boat.

    Are you still building sails or have you retired? Again many thanks for your input and advice!
    DP

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    176

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dinghy Pipedreams View Post
    Does anyone know the folks in this link? Sounds like they're still in Port Townsend but no last names were given in the link:
    https://www.pocketyachters.com/roger-jo-walkabout

    Thanks again.
    I believe Roger (and Jo) Bechy live in Nordland (Mystery Bay) on Marrowstone Island, and we'll probably see them at next weekend's Wooden Boat Festival in Port Townsend. Very sweet people, and likely pleased to talk about the junk rig on their Walkabout. I bet they'll sail over and land on the beach in front of the Maritime Centre (but, that's just a guess based on previous experience).

    Cheers,
    Dale

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Madison Wisconsin
    Posts
    10,713

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    It's hard to say much comparing the two types. I have no experience sailing with a junk rig. I suspect the camber of the lug will allow it to point higher and generate more power for punching through choppy water. The speed of putting in or shaking out a reef may favor the junk, but some of the single line jiffy reefing systems are pretty fast to operate. I kind of think keeping much of the rig just as simple as possible may be the best solution. When you start talking about needing lazy jacks on a ten foot dinghy my antennas tend to go up and I start to wonder.

    I am retired. No more days spent crawling around on a hardwood floor.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Wrocław, Poland
    Posts
    13,465

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dinghy Pipedreams View Post
    Thanks for the pic, Todd . I would be interested in a fully battened Balanced Lug to combine the two rig's pros/cons.
    Is Ben Fuller on this thread? His Dias-designed Harrier "Ran Tan" uses a high-aspect fully battened lugsail, and I think Ben likes it a lot. He said getting the stiffness of the battens correct was the tricky part (I think there's no boom, just an extra-stiff batten at the foot).

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Wrocław, Poland
    Posts
    13,465

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    I experimented briefly (by "briefly" I mean the sail never made it to the boat for actual sailing, just rigged it) with a junk rig for a 14' Bolger skiff, and almost immediately concluded the added complications were not going to be worth whatever theoretical gains in ease of use might accompany them.

    A simple lugsail, no battens, is the most user-friendly rig for a small boat in my opinion, if by user-friendly you mean "lack of complexity" and "ease of reefing" (especially while on the water).

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Uki, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    35,574

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    Lazy jacks are just two fixed lines either side of the sail, they just help keep the sail bundle tidy. Once fitted there is no need to fiddle with them.
    I'm still planning to fit a JR to my Bolger cartopper...too many distractions in my life at the moment.
    without freedom of speech, we wouldn't know who the idiots are.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2022
    Location
    Anacortes WA USA
    Posts
    61

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    Dale, thanks for the info. regarding Roger and Jo. I'll see if I can get ahold of them and keep an eye out at the Fest. if I get there for a day this year. Hopefully I could arrange to see their rig and watch them sail it and ask questions.

    Tom, curious which complications you felt weren't worth it? The need to add a boom kin for sheet leads? The additional weight of the battens? Cost of blocks? I've seen a larger tube placed over the mast step to receive the mast that allowed the barrels to rest on them allowing the parrels to remain in place the next time the mast is stepped. That feature made trailering much easier for a quick(er) launching from a larger boat or at the dock.
    Were all of those loose parrels one of the complications that you didn't like?

    Todd, I thought I'd remembered your retirement in a past thread but wasn't sure. If you know of a sailmaker in the PNW that still builds good balanced lug sails please let me know. None of my local sailmakers have a clue about Lugs and certainly not the Junk.

    I've seen several small dinghies rigged as Junks (8-12') in British Columbia where the rig has a pretty good foothold.
    The key to Junk battens in general is to make them stiff (for flat sails). Many try to get camber with the battens and it's not as effective or they break. Jointed battens and cambered paneled sails are a different thang...
    I've seen probably about a dozen or so larger Junk rigged boats in B.C. under sail or in anchorages over the years. The rig has a definite "foot hold" in B.C.

    WX, I've read Arnie's "book" on the public Junk Rig Assoc. pages. Have you had the opportunity to sail your cambered sail and compare it with a flat Junk sail? Have you seen an appreciable improvement going to windward? What size vessel is your sail for?

    I do realize that a Junk sail on a 10 ft, dinghy is more complicated but would like to see if it's something I'd like on a larger boat later.
    I'm regretting not going for a sail on a Junk rigged dinghy in the past now to see if I'd truly like having one or not. Sailing on "China Cloud" and spending time on deck on "Migrant" (Colvin Gazelle) in the '70s and '80s (both approx. 42') intrigued me but of course they're much bigger than a dinghy!

    If anyone is interested, the public pages of the Junk Rig Assoc. has a technical forum and the sections (appendices) regarding modern junk sails is fascinating. New materials for battens, curved panels, synthetic cordage have brought the sail's performance levels regarding windward work close to and in some cases equal to Bermudian rigged boats.

    Some modern Junk mains (especially on dinghies) have a straight luff as opposed to the exaggerated fan shapes which allow one line sheeting to the stern. A boom kin may be needed or not depending on the lead.
    The general claim made about junks in the books is that the rig is more complex to build/set up but easier in use because it excludes most deck work or going forward in heavy weather, etc. on larger vessels.

    Does anyone here use one line reefing systems on a balanced lug? Any particular recommendations or links to offer?

    At this point not sure what I"ll end up doing but exploring the possibilities for now.
    Thanks everyone.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Uki, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    35,574

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    WX, I've read Arnie's "book" on the public Junk Rig Assoc. pages. Have you had the opportunity to sail your cambered sail and compare it with a flat Junk sail? Have you seen an appreciable improvement going to windward? What size vessel is your sail for?
    My boat has since been decommissioned due to an ongoing rot problem.
    However, the boat is a Hartley Spindrift 24 that i built from scratch. I also built the mast and sail for it. I didn't get to test it against a flat panel rig. On the few occasions that I sailed with other yachts of similar size she performed quite well. I couldn't quite match to windward, but factors such as level of sailing skill come into it. Any other point of sail I did out sail other yachts of a similar size. I am presently rebuilding a Hartley ts16 trailer sailer, and it will be junk rigged.
    without freedom of speech, we wouldn't know who the idiots are.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Uki, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    35,574

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    without freedom of speech, we wouldn't know who the idiots are.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Coromandel, NZ
    Posts
    332

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?


  23. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Uki, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    35,574

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dierking View Post
    That's a really old article and gurney flaps really are not used anymore.
    However this page is brilliant, I found it very useful when doing the calcs for my mast.
    https://duckworksmagazine.com/10/howto/birdsmouth/
    without freedom of speech, we wouldn't know who the idiots are.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Wrocław, Poland
    Posts
    13,465

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dinghy Pipedreams View Post
    Tom, curious which complications you felt weren't worth it? The need to add a boom kin for sheet leads? The additional weight of the battens? Cost of blocks? I've seen a larger tube placed over the mast step to receive the mast that allowed the barrels to rest on them allowing the parrels to remain in place the next time the mast is stepped. That feature made trailering much easier for a quick(er) launching from a larger boat or at the dock.
    Were all of those loose parrels one of the complications that you didn't like?
    All of the above, really. But especially the parrels and battens--so many pieces for such a small sail!

    But I am unusually gifted in my ability to make a mess of things, and highly intolerant of a cockpit cluttered with lines as a result. And lazy to boot. I need to have things ultra-simple to have any chance of not having a mess of tangles underfoot. So I've concluded that for me, a halyard, sheet, and downhaul are all the controls I dare allow in my boat.

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Uki, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    35,574

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    All of the above, really. But especially the parrels and battens--so many pieces for such a small sail!

    But I am unusually gifted in my ability to make a mess of things, and highly intolerant of a cockpit cluttered with lines as a result. And lazy to boot. I need to have things ultra-simple to have any chance of not having a mess of tangles underfoot. So I've concluded that for me, a halyard, sheet, and downhaul are all the controls I dare allow in my boat.

    Tom
    A small boat JR need not be complex. The sheet might be longer than other rigs. Halyard is the same as other rigs. The only other line would be a yard hauling parrel, which is for keeping the yard sling point in close to the mast.
    without freedom of speech, we wouldn't know who the idiots are.

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2022
    Location
    Anacortes WA USA
    Posts
    61

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    A small boat JR need not be complex. The sheet might be longer than other rigs. Halyard is the same as other rigs. The only other line would be a yard hauling parrel, which is for keeping the yard sling point in close to the mast.
    Thanks Tom, WX et. al. I MEANT to say straight leech rather than luff in my previous post-noticed too late to edit...

    I have seen that other Duckworks page/article from the Canadian guy. I wondered about the flaps thing. I hadn't seen that feature on the assoc. pages before.

    WX, I've read elsewhere that Arne's sail design/drawings can be shrunk down on a copier to an appropriate scale. Is that as straightforward as it sounds? Do you have an example on Arne's "'book" pages that could be reduced for a 10.5' er?
    If I could understand that aspect I think I might be able to build something to try if I had all the correct panel measurements.

    I am going to ask that question when my membership goes through but thought you might have thoughts...?
    Thanks guys.

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Wrocław, Poland
    Posts
    13,465

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    A small boat JR need not be complex. The sheet might be longer than other rigs. Halyard is the same as other rigs. The only other line would be a yard hauling parrel, which is for keeping the yard sling point in close to the mast.
    I guess it depends on what "complex" means to you.

    By my figuring, there's going to be several battens at least--added complexity to sail construction for sure. Sheetlets? Certainly there's lots of complexity there (but maybe you're thinking a small rig doesn't need them? But isn't that level of control of individual panels the whole point?) Long sheet--added tangles in the cockpit=complexity in use (the worst kind of complexity). Yard hauling parrel is an additional line--more complexity.

    Compared to halyard-sheet-downhaul, in a rig that I'd argue is nearly as easy to reef as a junk anyway, that's plenty of complexity.

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    central cal
    Posts
    24,663

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    If you want a junk rig, build one. All these boats we own are frivolous, anyway, so do what you like.

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Wrocław, Poland
    Posts
    13,465

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    ^^^ Agreed. My boat won't have a junk rig--but y'all? Junk it up. It'll be interesting at the very least. I don't claim to have "the" answers. I only have "my" answers. And my judgment is questionable at best...

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    central cal
    Posts
    24,663

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    Oh, mine is much worse! I have a sprit rigged tarp sail, for goodness’ sake.

    Really, though, I was serious about it being all for fun and our own enjoyment. I think junk rigs are lovely, and as much of the line can be string sized on such a small rig, why not?

    Plus, you can make euphroes, and use the word.

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Wrocław, Poland
    Posts
    13,465

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Oh, mine is much worse! I have a sprit rigged tarp sail, for goodness’ sake.
    You got me there. I moved on to real sails a while back. (Don't tell anyone, but I don't really enjoy sailing with fancy sails any more than I did with my $20 plastic tarp...)

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Madison Wisconsin
    Posts
    10,713

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    I am certainly no junk expert, but it seems to me that the aspect ratio might have a lot to do with the effectiveness or not of the sheetlets vs. mainsheet question. Shorter smallish boat sails are not usually capable of a lot of twist in the first place, so the sheetlets system may not be very effective.

    i do kind of like the looks of this junk-ish battened lug style though.

    fd1faa1b.jpg

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Uki, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    35,574

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    I guess it depends on what "complex" means to you.

    By my figuring, there's going to be several battens at least--added complexity to sail construction for sure. Sheetlets? Certainly there's lots of complexity there (but maybe you're thinking a small rig doesn't need them? But isn't that level of control of individual panels the whole point?) Long sheet--added tangles in the cockpit=complexity in use (the worst kind of complexity). Yard hauling parrel is an additional line--more complexity.

    Compared to halyard-sheet-downhaul, in a rig that I'd argue is nearly as easy to reef as a junk anyway, that's plenty of complexity.

    Tom
    It could be argued that constructing any sail involves complexity. The beauty of JR sails is the fact they can be made out of any flexible material, be it Dacron sail cloth or blue poly tarp. There is some complexity in rigging the sail bundle, but that only has to be done once. Sheetlets, also once rigged don't need further attention. Battens once fitted won't need touching. On a 10.5 ft boat you could be rigged and sailing in the same amount of time as any other rig.
    without freedom of speech, we wouldn't know who the idiots are.

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Uki, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    35,574

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Bradshaw View Post
    I am certainly no junk expert, but it seems to me that the aspect ratio might have a lot to do with the effectiveness or not of the sheetlets vs. mainsheet question. Shorter smallish boat sails are not usually capable of a lot of twist in the first place, so the sheetlets system may not be very effective.

    i do kind of like the looks of this junk-ish battened lug style though.

    fd1faa1b.jpg
    By running the sheet through sheetlets off the battens you would gain a greater amount of control.
    without freedom of speech, we wouldn't know who the idiots are.

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Madison Wisconsin
    Posts
    10,713

    Default Re: Junk Rig (for Dinghy) Designer/Builder in WA State?

    I'm not sure that is true. The amount of twist available on a sail with a fairly low aspect ratio is limited, and there is nothing you can do with any sheeting system to change that.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •