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Thread: Gun volence and medical trauma

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    There is a wiki listing all the shootings involving US police, would you like me to find it for you? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_..._United_States
    That is just the police, not mass murders like Sandy Hook, or people arguing in the mall car park, and so on.
    Those odds are about 23.3 times the risk in the UK from one source, much worse from another.
    https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/w...ates/85994716/
    This source gives Firearm-related death rate per 100K population per year USA 12.2, UK 0.23, https://worldpopulationreview.com/co...ths-by-country
    The US is not the worst, 9 Caribbean and South American nations do worse for gun deaths. Something to be proud of.
    Post what you will, but I have coffee from someone actually doing the job and I know what he says. A large majority of the violent crime is black on black. It’s a sad statistic, but true. Yes the mass shootings get a lot of press, and those shooters are often white, but the much more frequent shootings over drugs and domestic issues in the black community frequently go unreported. That’s what we get here, usually one a week, usually in the wee hours of the morning and the shooter is usually high on something.
    Same in the big cities like Philly. I’d wager the majority of it gets no coverage from the media.
    Last edited by Reynard38; 08-31-2022 at 08:03 AM.
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  2. #37
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    Chris Green was a good natured, pleasant young man who got along with everyone. He bought a gun by mail.

    He robbed our substation and put bullets in the heads of 5 people. Four died. Two were friends as well as co-workers.

    Someone, please, justify that.
    Justify? I can't even explain it! Does anyone know why he did it?
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

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  3. #38
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    Kevin Addison walked up to a sawmill in nanaimo that he had worked at for years but was fired from during an economic downturn and not hired back when others were. He shot 4 and 2 died. Not my friends or colleagues, but just as tragic.

    Like the murders you mention John, no-one can justify it or really understand the motivations of the perpetrator

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Justify? I can't even explain it! Does anyone know why he did it?

    Green said he committed the robbery ``because he had a mountain of debt,″ and used part of the money for back rent, Postal Inspector Kevin Manley said.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Imagine working in the ER when this comes in:



    The news story came out an hour ago. Now explain to me why a 12 year old kid has a gun and why the parents aren't locked up?!

    Shock as 12-year-old allegedly shoots classmate in Oakland school (msn.com)
    Did the 12 year old bring the gun to school legally? Were there already laws against this? I agree if the parents provided him the gun either knowingly or through negligence they absolutely should be locked up and so should the kid.
    But if you think for one second that a shooting in Oakland CA is going to cause legal, responsible gun owners in WY, MT, or in my case SC to give up their guns think again.
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    So you agree with the rates that I posted. The US 12.2/100,000, compares with 0.23/100,000 in the UK. Now which is better?
    And I’d still MUCH rather live here. And so would 3 households in my neighborhood that were former residents of the UK.
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  7. #42
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynard38 View Post
    And I’d still MUCH rather live here. And so would 3 households in my neighborhood that were former residents of the UK.
    "I'm all right Jack, pull up the ladder".

    Why do you not care about your fellow US citizens?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  8. #43
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    When a city gives up on supporting its police force:

    Shooting_Incident_Statistics.jpg

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    So you agree with the rates that I posted. The US 12.2/100,000, compares with 0.23/100,000 in the UK. Now which is better?
    Obviously, lower rates are better, zero would be nice. From a statistical point of view, however, for the comparison to be valid, the criteria in the two countries have to be identical, or at least similar.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    It's not that, its that law of averages. There are 17 other risks that are more likely than being shot. These are lifetime risks as well, not my odds as I go for a walk this afternoon. Quite franlkly I'm more afraid of Alzheimer's.




    Attachment 117883
    If assault by gun is more common than being in a car, bicycle accidents or drowning that’s way too frequent.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    'Mass shootings' of the stereotypical type where someone runs amok and shoots a bunch of people unknown to him more or less at random, (like in Uvalde or Sandy Hook, or that particularly horrific one at the concert in Las Vegas) are very, very rare. They get a lot of publicity, which may be one of the motives. Most incidents classified as 'mass shootings' involve several people known to the killer, plus sometimes those that were unfortunate enough to get in the way, and have a comprehensible motive. Bad enough, but not quite the same thing

    Ordinary assaults with guns are far more common; far too commomn.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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  12. #47
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    getting shot is a lifetime risk as well

    virtually every other risk in the top thirty on that chart we as a society approach to reducing; and most generally we make the approach from a scientific standpoint

    why shouldn't we also approach the risk of getting shot similarly? why do so many gun rights advocates make it out to be a zero sum game where we only work on reducing the odds of one thing happening at the cost of increasing the odds of another when that is not the reality at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    It's not that, its that law of averages. There are 17 other risks that are more likely than being shot. These are lifetime risks as well, not my odds as I go for a walk this afternoon. Quite franlkly I'm more afraid of Alzheimer's.




    Attachment 117883
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    getting shot is a lifetime risk as well

    virtually every other risk in the top thirty on that chart we as a society approach to reducing; and most generally we make the approach from a scientific standpoint

    why shouldn't we also approach the risk of getting shot similarly? why do so many gun rights advocates make it out to be a zero sum game where we only work on reducing the odds of one thing happening at the cost of increasing the odds of another when that is not the reality at all?

    As long as working on reducing the odds isn’t just politics. Have a look at that map of shootings in Vancouver that I posted earlier in this thread. Our government is using the number of shootings by illegal handguns as a reason to limit some of the legally owned and registers rifles that we have.
    Politics.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    Average cost, in dollars, of hospital treatment after a shooting in Seattle hospital, US$96,000.
    Then there's paraplegia, quadriplegia and death. Billions.

    Politics?

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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    As long as working on reducing the odds isn’t just politics. Have a look at that map of shootings in Vancouver that I posted earlier in this thread. Our government is using the number of shootings by illegal handguns as a reason to limit some of the legally owned and registers rifles that we have.
    Politics.
    Politics or not,do you believe it will make life more dangerous to have these restrictions in place?

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    As long as working on reducing the odds isn’t just politics.
    so you want some technocrat/bureaucrat to write the policy for you based upon their scientific findings
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    Quote Originally Posted by David W Pratt View Post
    Obviously, lower rates are better, zero would be nice. From a statistical point of view, however, for the comparison to be valid, the criteria in the two countries have to be identical, or at least similar.
    They are. Number of incidents per 100,000 of population. What else do you want to factor in? That US citizens frankly could not give a damn about gun death? That the NRA care more about money than people's right to life?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  18. #53
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynard38 View Post
    Did the 12 year old bring the gun to school legally? Were there already laws against this? I agree if the parents provided him the gun either knowingly or through negligence they absolutely should be locked up and so should the kid.
    But if you think for one second that a shooting in Oakland CA is going to cause legal, responsible gun owners in WY, MT, or in my case SC to give up their guns think again.
    I googled and found this:

    Minimum Age for Gun Possession: Subject to limited exceptions*, federal law prohibits the possession of a handgun or handgun ammunition by any person under the age of 18. Federal law provides no minimum age for the possession of long guns or long gun ammunition.
    So I'm going to say the 12 year old did NOT bring the gun to school legally.

    Now the question: how did he get it, who is responsible for keeping it safe, and will they be prosecuted?
    Last edited by CWSmith; 08-31-2022 at 04:25 PM.
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  19. #54
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    Politics or not,do you believe it will make life more dangerous to have these restrictions in place?
    That is a ridiculous way to look at life. If you look at everything that way you’ll do nothing, and prevent everyone else from doing anything too.
    The restrictions proposed will make zero difference and cost hundreds of millions of dollars better directed at controlling the border. But that’s not sexy.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    so you want some technocrat/bureaucrat to write the policy for you based upon their scientific findings
    What are you on about? Stay away from the tire cement.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Average cost, in dollars, of hospital treatment after a shooting in Seattle hospital, US$96,000.
    Then there's paraplegia, quadriplegia and death. Billions.

    Politics?
    Wrong country. Costs about the same here through and maybe if they spent the money trying to stop gangs from shooting at each other (almost every one of the markers on my map) it might reduce that number.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    What are you on about? Stay away from the tire cement.
    it was me responding to your equally ridiculous comment 'leave the politics out of it'
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    it was me responding to your equally ridiculous comment 'leave the politics out of it'

    Policy should be based on logic, not on making a politician look good for 15 minutes. (Our gun law, Biden’s loan forgiveness being great examples)

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    its a crazy number ain't it?

    i didn't believe it myself, but 'we' the forum went hammer and tongs on that number for quite some time
    i'll give ian some credit, his research, sources, and math were beyond reproach
    I have hours invested in running that number down, and including suicides it was valid. I'm still looking at reloading press to start making my own shotgun shells though. A round of sporting clays is therapeutic but not very cheap.
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  25. #60
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    I googled and found this:



    So I'm going to say the 12 year old did NOT bring the gun to school legally.

    Now the question: how did he get it, who is responsible for keeping it safe, and will they be prosecuted?
    And could the shooting have occurred with responsible, sensible gun laws in place?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  26. #61
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    And could the shooting have occurred with responsible, sensible gun laws in place?
    To be honest, yes. I will bet you that it occurred because the parents don't believe in a gun safe and the kid broke the law by carrying the gun to school. It was one violation after another and more laws would only add the number of laws broken.

    What you can do is lock up the gun's owner for a year and make sure everyone knows that is what will happen to them when they leave their gun out where a 12 year old can get it.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

    "Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." - Will Rogers

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  27. #62
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    To be honest, yes. I will bet you that it occurred because the parents don't believe in a gun safe and the kid broke the law by carrying the gun to school. It was one violation after another and more laws would only add the number of laws broken.

    What you can do is lock up the gun's owner for a year and make sure everyone knows that is what will happen to them when they leave their gun out where a 12 year old can get it.
    I did say "sensible, responsible" laws. Your existing laws do not fit that criteria, and neither will more of the same.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  28. #63
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    That's a very good graphic; excellent way to display the information. It would be interesting to see similar ones for other countries.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    That's a very good graphic; excellent way to display the information. It would be interesting to see similar ones for other countries.
    The circles on the Venn diagram may be too small
    GBR

    Firearm-related death rate per 100K population: 0.23
    Homicide Rate: 0.06
    Suicide Rate: 0.15
    Total Deaths: 155





    Out of United Kingdom Population, 2022 (Live) 67,516,748
    We publish statistics for lots of causes, but on different web pages, broken down in ways that make replicating that Venn diagram really time-consuming.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  30. #65
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Justify? I can't even explain it! Does anyone know why he did it?
    Robbery; He got about $2k
    "Banning books and not guns seems backwards. Can't think of anyone ever shot by a book

  31. #66
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    Policy should be based on logic, not on making a politician look good for 15 minutes. (Our gun law, Biden’s loan forgiveness being great examples)
    Who do you think should pay medical bills for gunshot victims?
    "Banning books and not guns seems backwards. Can't think of anyone ever shot by a book

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    Not saying that more should be done, but counting 18 and 19 year olds as children is BS. take out the 18 and 19 year olds and autos are still the leading cause of death for children. When I stood on the yellow footprints in San Diego at the age of 18 and some days no one was telling me I was a child (lots of other not very complimentary labels though). Does everyone with an automobile have blood on their hands? I dont think so. Motor Vehicles killing more children in other countries also.

    I am a big proponent of training and addressing the mental health issues, the bullying, and long term economic issues for POC.

    Here is the source BTW https://www.kff.org/global-health-po...eer-countries/
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  33. #68
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    ^ And unlike cars, it is difficult to determine what good guns accomplish. Home safety? Statistically, no. Crime prevention? Not often. Food on the table? Hunting rifles will, but not handguns as a rule.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

    "Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." - Will Rogers

    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - Groucho Marx

  34. #69
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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    ^ And unlike cars, it is difficult to determine what good guns accomplish. Home safety? Statistically, no. Crime prevention? Not often. Food on the table? Hunting rifles will, but not handguns as a rule.
    i hunt with handguns
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Gun volence and medical trauma

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    i hunt with handguns
    Squirrels, rabbits, the neighbors cats?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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