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Thread: The origin of College Debt

  1. #1
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    Default The origin of College Debt

    Why does everything always seem to come back to Reagan?

    https://theintercept.com/2022/08/25/...t%20Newsletter
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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    [QUOTE=Art Haberland;6717588]Why does everything always seem to come back to Reagan?

    Basically, that's about where it all started. I was a college student in San Francisco when Regan became governor running on a platform against "hippies" and college students. At the time, he said, "If it takes a bloodbath, let’s get it over with.” And he proceeded to do just that. And don't forget, when the HUAC McCarthy hearings were in full swing against the Hollywood movie industry and Reagan was president of SAG, he turned snitch on his fellow union members in a hot minute. Reagan began the slow death of the GOP and is responsible for what it became today.

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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    So saying Cleek.
    This is the gospel according to Cleek

    Todays conservatives exalt him to saint like status.
    Fook Ronny Raygun, I was 16 when he ran in 1980, but in the 1984 election even though Ronny crushed that election, my first time voting I voted for Mondale.
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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    Because it does
    Quote Originally Posted by Art Haberland View Post
    Why does everything always seem to come back to Reagan?

    https://theintercept.com/2022/08/25/...t%20Newsletter

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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    Reagan is lionized by our corporate overlords , , ,

    but not by me

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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    Never liked him from day-one.

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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    St Reagan (hack, pTuee!).. the beginning of the end.

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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    That’s when medical costs started going up significantly compared to other countries.

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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    People he screwed still love him. Have to admire his ability to do that.
    "Banning books in spite of the 1st amendment, but refusing to regulate guns in spite of "well regulated militia' being in the 2nd amendment makes no sense. Can't think of anyone ever shot by a book

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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Haberland View Post
    Why does everything always seem to come back to Reagan?

    https://theintercept.com/2022/08/25/...t%20Newsletter
    How is it surprising that movie and tv show stars make poor presidents?

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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    Rather than use list prices, it might be more informative to use what students actually pay. Many colleges offer pretty good financial aid.

    And a lot of students are willing to go into debt to go to a school where a degree leads to an inability to pay off the debt.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    ^ might I suggest you contemplate your .sig for however long it takes you to realize just what its ramifications esp here may be?

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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    [QUOTE=Bob Cleek;6717598]
    Quote Originally Posted by Art Haberland View Post
    Why does everything always seem to come back to Reagan?

    Basically, that's about where it all started. I was a college student in San Francisco when Regan became governor running on a platform against "hippies" and college students. At the time, he said, "If it takes a bloodbath, let’s get it over with.” And he proceeded to do just that. And don't forget, when the HUAC McCarthy hearings were in full swing against the Hollywood movie industry and Reagan was president of SAG, he turned snitch on his fellow union members in a hot minute. Reagan began the slow death of the GOP and is responsible for what it became today.

    Everyone understands that this is because of President Reagan. You don't even have to look into it. But you have to study hard to avoid debt! If you can't do it yourself, ask for help! Also recently wrote an article on case study help, used Paperell.net for that. If my parents could hear me now, they'd be in a lather. The thing is, I used to be lazy (you might say). Didn't want to do anything and my friends in college did everything for me. Then something inside me clicked, around the time I got a job in parallel with my studies. I gradually started doing everything myself.
    That's right, everything you said is true!
    Last edited by portiaheltsleynlt81; 11-29-2022 at 09:57 AM.

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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    Some data.




    But it's not evenly distributed, not even close:

    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 11-29-2022 at 08:33 AM.
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    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    Rather than use list prices, it might be more informative to use what students actually pay. Many colleges offer pretty good financial aid.
    To that end, local college Colby Sawyer realized this year that 100% of their students were getting fin aid; the list price was totally meaningless to students and just served to create distorted images and stats. So, to bring clarity back into the picture, they cut their list tuition from $46k to $17k.
    https://www.vnews.com/Colby-Sawyer-a...ction-47852034
    Here's to hoping that others follow suit.
    -Leif

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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    I've said it before - the fastest growing element of my university is the administration. It's not an academic department, it's management. You need to ask whether this is happening because they like it, or because it's necessary. If it is necessary, why?

    College tuition will never be contained until we can answer that question and then do something about it.
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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    Rather than use list prices, it might be more informative to use what students actually pay. Many colleges offer pretty good financial aid.

    And a lot of students are willing to go into debt to go to a school where a degree leads to an inability to pay off the debt.
    My daughter graduated in the top 3% EVER to graduate from Belleville High. We attended a financial aid meeting one evening in the school's auditorium. Very nice lady was giving a seminar on college financing.

    20 minutes, or so, into the speech I stood up and politely interrupted her. I knew most of the parents, and she was telling us the only help we'd get would be loans. There were a few scholarships for academics. My daughter got one: $500. That was a mere drop in the bucket.

    She got into Trenton State, and got a position, name of which I forget, where she arranged field trips and helped students on her dorm floor with whatever problems they had. She finished the four years in two and a half, as it was the only way she could make it affordable. She maintained her 4.0 GPA.

    Her friend, who also went to Trenton State, did all four years on borrowed money.

    My daughter's family contribution would include every dime she made working, gross, during her high school years. Ponder that. No gas. No movies. No taxes.
    "Banning books in spite of the 1st amendment, but refusing to regulate guns in spite of "well regulated militia' being in the 2nd amendment makes no sense. Can't think of anyone ever shot by a book

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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    I've said it before - the fastest growing element of my university is the administration. It's not an academic department, it's management. You need to ask whether this is happening because they like it, or because it's necessary. If it is necessary, why?

    College tuition will never be contained until we can answer that question and then do something about it.
    I disagree. I think if loans were harder to get, tuitions would come down in price.
    "Banning books in spite of the 1st amendment, but refusing to regulate guns in spite of "well regulated militia' being in the 2nd amendment makes no sense. Can't think of anyone ever shot by a book

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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    Quote Originally Posted by Torna View Post
    To that end, local college Colby Sawyer realized this year that 100% of their students were getting fin aid; the list price was totally meaningless to students and just served to create distorted images and stats. So, to bring clarity back into the picture, they cut their list tuition from $46k to $17k.
    That has little effect on the students, but it does provide better data.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    I disagree. I think if loans were harder to get, tuitions would come down in price.
    Because federal reporting would go away?

    Because colleges would no longer be recording record profits?

    If loans go away, fewer students go to college and the colleges shrink. I'm not certain that's a good thing, but that is what would happen. Fewer students mean fewer faculty, that leads to fewer courses, then fewer majors (I'm talking engineering, not the Eskimo poetry we keep hearing about), and our society gets even more stupid than it is today.

    You curb cost by curbing spending. That's what you do in your household finances and that's what you need in society.
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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    My daughter's family contribution would include every dime she made working, gross, during her high school years. Ponder that. No gas. No movies. No taxes.
    And you want me to comment on your daughter's financial aid without you providing the financial aid forms or any other other school related financial information. I can do that.

    Looking at her financial aid form it includes her parents' financial information. Looking further down I see both the family and student expected contribution. Doing a bit of math I see that the student and family can live a reasonable economic life while the student is in college. Looking at the offer made by the school and your response to it, it appears it was a good enough offer that the family accepted it.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    A different presentation does not change the validity of the numbers.

    Perhaps you could present how the actual cost - rather than the list price, has changed.

    Stanford is an "expensive" private four-year college. They charge nothing for tuition (and fees) as well as room and board if one meets the income requirements. And, as I recall, even those at twice the median income are not charged for tuition (and fees). That makes the school affordable for just about everyone.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    Yes, 'list price' and what people actually pay are different. The latter gets very very complicated, as financial aid is at best a pretty baroque system. And 'aid' figures sometimes include subsidized loans. But here are some basic numbers. Note that it's in constant dollars, inflation-adjusted.

    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 11-29-2022 at 11:45 AM.
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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    Quote Originally Posted by Durnik View Post
    St Reagan (hack, pTuee!).. the beginning of the end.
    Not hardly. But he was a Great Leap Forward for the forces of oligarchy.
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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    My seat of the pants impression is that it goes back to the Viet Nam War. Student deferments incentivized a lot of people to stay in school and created a "need" for college capacity. Once there was more capacity, it started a metastatic proliferation of "majors" to attract students.

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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Yes, 'list price' and what people actually pay are different. The latter gets very very complicated, as financial aid is at best a pretty baroque system. And 'aid' figures sometimes include subsidized loans. But here are some basic numbers. Note that it's in constant dollars, inflation-adjusted.

    https://libertystreeteconomics.newyo...nues-to-climb/

    https://www.newyorkfed.org/research/...es/ci20-3.html
    ... an analysis of the economic returns to college since the 1970s demonstrates that the benefits of both a bachelor’s degree and an associate’s degree still tend to outweigh the costs, with both degrees earning a return of about 15 percent over the past decade. The return has remained high in spite of rising tuition and falling earnings because the wages of those without a college degree have also been falling, keeping the college wage premium near an all-time high while reducing the opportunity cost of going to school.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Yes, 'list price' and what people actually pay are different. The latter gets very very complicated, as financial aid is at best a pretty baroque system. And 'aid' figures sometimes include subsidized loans. But here are some basic numbers. Note that it's in constant dollars, inflation-adjusted.

    Biggest hidden price when I attended was the requirement to stay in overpriced dormitories for two years--considerably more than tuition. Dunno if that is the situation today.

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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    That has little effect on the students, but it does provide better data.
    Actually, they were claiming it had an effect upon the applicant pool: students of modest means wouldn't turn away immediately upon seeing the $65k sticker price, but would see that it was no more expensive than the state school, UNH.
    -Leif

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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    Fewer people on the post Vietnam GI bill. With the changes - colleges could charge what they wanted. Coincides with changes to state school increases and decreases in veterans who went to school.

    student loans are not a problem for modern recent veterans with a better veteran benefit.
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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    Quote Originally Posted by Torna View Post
    Actually, they were claiming it had an effect upon the applicant pool: students of modest means wouldn't turn away immediately upon seeing the $65k sticker price, but would see that it was no more expensive than the state school, UNH.
    So the perspective students and their advisors lacked the knowledge that the list price was not the same as the actual price. That reflects poorly on both the students and advisors.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Because federal reporting would go away?

    Because colleges would no longer be recording record profits?

    If loans go away, fewer students go to college and the colleges shrink. I'm not certain that's a good thing, but that is what would happen. Fewer students mean fewer faculty, that leads to fewer courses, then fewer majors (I'm talking engineering, not the Eskimo poetry we keep hearing about), and our society gets even more stupid than it is today.

    You curb cost by curbing spending. That's what you do in your household finances and that's what you need in society.
    Could lead to lower tuitions, no?
    "Banning books in spite of the 1st amendment, but refusing to regulate guns in spite of "well regulated militia' being in the 2nd amendment makes no sense. Can't think of anyone ever shot by a book

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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    Sign you name and go to college. Worry about paying off the loans later. Maybe many years later.
    "Banning books in spite of the 1st amendment, but refusing to regulate guns in spite of "well regulated militia' being in the 2nd amendment makes no sense. Can't think of anyone ever shot by a book

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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    Could lead to lower tuitions, no?
    Keep the overhead high while lowering the production rate and the quality of the product? When has that worked?

    The only solution to reducing the cost of education is to reduce the overhead.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

    "Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." - Will Rogers

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    Default Re: The origin of College Debt

    The article is weak, and Reagan has just about nothing to do with college debt. It does give greedy boomers an out though.

    On the other hand Reagan is completely responsible for the current war in Ukraine. If he had not joined forces with Solidarity, the Pope and Tip O'Neil to bring down the Soviet Union those damn Ukrainians would be in the gulag where they belong and this war would not be happening.

    (sorry for some reason I just stared channeling sandtown, Vadim68 and HR Davis I think I need an exorcism)
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