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Thread: $300 billion wealth transfer

  1. #491
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Yes, but if you were following the thread .
    Well, I was following what you wrote . . .

    El problema is your'un.

    Try to express yourself clearly and accurately.

  2. #492
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Well, I was following what you wrote . . .

    El problema is your'un.

    Try to express yourself clearly and accurately.
    Not if you were following the thread! It's pretty I obvious unless you want feign ignorance

  3. #493
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    Your graph in post #470 is not just misleading it is wrong.

    Being toward the top of the economy, most of my household's income does not even appear on tax forms. From the graph we appear to have been in the top 5-10%.

    In rough numbers, we typically pay about 15% of the largest income number on our tax form. About 30% of our typical taxable income. But only about 5% of our total income. And there is a good portion of our income that will transfer to our kids on our death that will never be subject to income tax.

    Those richer than my household come out even better - they pay taxes at a lower rate on their actual income.
    So just to be clear..... You are arguing against a graph that used IRS data based on your personal income tax return alone?????? Really????

  4. #494
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Yes, Keith, but since this was in response to a Trump tax break comment, it can only be relevant to the federal return. . . .
    Of COURSE Trump cut income taxes. 'Lower taxes for the rich' is without the slightest shadow of doubt the single most reliable thing US conservatives try to do when in power. It's the bedrock Republican party principle, as predictable as decomposition of roadkill, and about as pleasant to watch. Capital gains taxes, estate taxes, corporate taxes, individual income taxes always. The latter gives them a bit of cover, because you can make accurate graphs showing that those making $40K had their taxes cut by a greater percentage than those making $10 million, and some people will fall for it. 'Flat tax' proposals are a perennial as mosquitos, and of course accumulated wealth is generally not taxed at all. Regressive or more broadly distributed taxes, they leave 'em alone. And, of course, deficits only matter when Democrats are in power. This has been going on for most of my lifetime, and I'm getting old.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  5. #495
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Of COURSE Trump cut income taxes. 'Lower taxes for the rich' is without the slightest shadow of doubt the single most reliable thing US conservatives try to do when in power. It's the bedrock Republican party principle, as predictable as decomposition of roadkill, and about as pleasant to watch. Capital gains taxes, estate taxes, corporate taxes, individual income taxes always. The latter gives them a bit of cover, because you can make accurate graphs showing that those making $40K had their taxes cut by a greater percentage than those making $10 million, and some people will fall for it. 'Flat tax' proposals are a perennial as mosquitos, and of course accumulated wealth is generally not taxed at all. Regressive or more broadly distributed taxes, they leave 'em alone. And, of course, deficits only matter when Democrats are in power. This has been going on for most of my lifetime, and I'm getting old.
    Deficits always matter regardless of who is president. We haven't had a true balanced budget since Eisenhower. We can debate whether Clinton actually balanced the budget some other time. I just don't have the energy to disagree with you today on the whole "Conservatives only like to give the rich a break" stuff. The GOP is rapidly becoming the party of the middleclass, and the go to party for Hispanics so they must be doing something right.

  6. #496
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    . . .and the go to party for Hispanics so they must be doing something right.
    again? where do you get your news?

    Hispanic party identification for the full year 2021 was 56% Democrats/Democratic leaners and 26% Republicans/Republican leaners. This represents a 30-point Democratic margin. The trend line since 2011 shows some fluctuation in this gap over time, but no indication of a major or sustained shift. The 30-point Democratic advantage in party identification among Hispanic adults in 2021 is, in fact, greater than the 26-point Democratic margin in 2011. If there has been any change worth noting, it has been the modest decrease in the percentage of Hispanic people who identify with or lean toward the Republican Party since 2011-2014.
    the above conclusion from gallup organization
    Last edited by Paul Pless; 09-15-2022 at 08:48 AM.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  7. #497
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    The GOP is rapidly becoming the party of the middleclass, and the go to party for Hispanics so they must be doing something right.
    LOL!! Sleep soundly, and enjoy your sweet dreams.

    More seriously, with Trump, Republicans voters are becoming more rural, whiter, older, a bit male, and more and more dependent on the overwhelming vote of white evangelical Christians, the latter being one of the things that's been driving the party farther to the right.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  8. #498
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    again? where do you get your news?



    the above conclusion from gallup organization

    Hispanic and minority voters are increasingly shifting to the Republican party
    https://www.npr.org/2022/07/23/11131...publican-party

    Democrats should be worried about losing Latino support—and not just in the obvious places

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/06/latino-voters-2022-midterms-republicans-trump-rust-belt/661357/


    Hispanic voters evenly split between Democrats, GOP: WSJ poll
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaig...-gop-wsj-poll/

    Why The GOP Might Not Turn Off Conservative Latino Voters
    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...latino-voters/


    'The Numbers Don't Lie': Democrats Worry as Latino Voters Lean to the Right in Nevada and Beyond
    https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/politic...ada-and-beyond
    Last edited by Boatbum; 09-15-2022 at 09:25 AM.

  9. #499
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    Ruy Teixeira, lol.

    take a look at the books he's written which are all political prognostications on which way american political parties will grow
    he was lauded for his one written in 2000, and he's been riding its book sales success since then
    but, even including that title, when has he been correct about anything over time
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  10. #500
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    Ruy Teixeira, lol.

    take a look at the books he's written which are all political prognostications on which way american political parties will grow
    he was lauded for his one written in 2000, and he's been riding its book sales success since then
    but, even including that title, when has he been correct about anything over time
    Meh

  11. #501
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Meh
    conservatives do love their false narratives and dishonest propoganda. . .
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  12. #502
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    conservatives do love their false narratives and dishonest propoganda. . .
    Some days maybe, but I won't be trolled today. You asked where I drew my conclusion and I gave you six sources and you have not countered with any contradictory sources but you think I have created a false narrative? Keep whistling in the graveyard.

  13. #503
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    Oh, there's some truth there. I've been saying for years that about half of Hispanic voters are a natural Republican constituency - conservatively religious, tend toward small-government semi-libertarian economics, fairly traditionalist, lot of small-business leave-me-alone folks. And too many Hispanic men, unfortunately, have a weakness for the type of swaggering machismo and authoritarian strongman crap exemplified by Trump, something they have in common with white evangelicals, actually. Jair Bolosnaro is an even more dangerous example. But the party has been doing its level best to drive them away for a good long time now, and largely succeeding. The America First, white nationalist, anti-immigrant, 'we will not be replaced' crowd won't let them do otherwise.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 09-15-2022 at 09:52 AM.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  14. #504
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Oh, there's some truth there. I've been saying for years that about half of Hispanic voters are a natural Republican constituency - conservatively religious, tend toward small-government semi-libertarian economics, fairly traditionalist, lot of small-business leave-me-alone folks. And too many Hispanic men, unfortunately, have a weakness for the type of swaggering machismo and authoritarian strongman crap exemplified by Trump, something they have in common with white evangelicals, actually. Jair Bolosnaro is an even more dangerous example. But the party has been doing its level best to drive them away for a good long time now, and largely succeeding. The America First, white nationalist, anti-immigrant, 'we will not be replaced' crowd won't let them do otherwise.
    A lot of Hispanics are angry that people can just walk across the border when they had to file papers and wait their turn. They are not anti-immigrant but are anti-illegal-immigrant

  15. #505
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    A lot of Hispanics are angry that people can just walk across the border when they had to file papers and wait their turn. They are not anti-immigrant but are anti-illegal-immigrant
    Yeah, maybe - but the utterly gratuitous cruelty showed by the last administration entirely cancelled out anything like that. Children who look just like your kids separated from their parents and kept in cages? Oh, yeah, that's going to go over really well. All too much of the "anti-illegal-immigration" sentiment on the right is based in white nationalism, and if you think Hispanic folks don't realize that, best think again.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 09-15-2022 at 10:11 AM.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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  16. #506
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    A lot of Hispanics are angry that people can just walk across the border when they had to file papers and wait their turn. They are not anti-immigrant but are anti-illegal-immigrant
    ahhhh. . . appeals to and from the republican party 'i gots mines' plank
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  17. #507
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    ahhhh. . . appeals to and from the republican party 'i gots mines' plank
    Ya, I can see where you wouldn't be interested in the thinking that goes into he voting preferences of Hispanic voters. This is one of the reasons the Democratic party is losing one of its important constituencies. I'm sure the GOP leadership is grateful for this approach. Can you say Mayra Flores......

  18. #508
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    This is one of the reasons the Democratic party is losing one of its important constituencies.
    Perhaps eventually that may happen, but for now it's utterly wishful thinking. Trumpismo has set that back twenty years. The damage might be repaired, but there's no sign that the party is even willing to try, but rather doubling down on white Christian nationalism.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  19. #509
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Perhaps eventually that may happen, but for now it's utterly wishful thinking. Trumpismo has set that back twenty years. The damage might be repaired, but there's no sign that the party is even willing to try, but rather doubling down on white Christian nationalism.
    Perhaps I don't honestly know

    Conventional wisdom long dictated that if Latino voters show up to vote, they will overwhelmingly support Democrats. But a recent report with more details on the 2020 election results suggests the reality is more complicated.

    It was clear after the election that Trump had made gains among Latino voters in places like Florida’s Miami-Dade County and Texas’s Rio Grande Valley. The newest and most detailed data yet shows that the trend was nationwide. According to a recent report by the Democratic data firm Catalist, the number of Latinos who cast votes increased by 31 percent from 2016 to 2020, accounting for a 10th of the electorate. A comfortable majority of Latinos — an estimated 61 percent — supported President Joe Biden, but there was about an 8 percentage-point swing toward Trump, based on data on votes cast for either the Democratic or Republican nominees in 2016 and 2020.

    The data shows that many Latino voters, who represent the fastest-growing share of the electorate, are not firmly part of the Democratic base. Instead, they seem to be persuadable voters, presenting a potential opportunity for both Democrats and Republicans. This is especially true for voters who aren’t hyperpartisan: new and infrequent voters, as well as people who flipped their votes in 2020 or who decided to sit the election out entirely.

    Democratic losses among Latinos likely already lost the party congressional seats in 2020. If Democrats are to maintain control of Congress in the midterms, sustaining and growing their support among Latinos will be key.
    “Is this bad news or is this good news for the Democratic Party? The reality is that’s not knowable right now,” Michael Frias, CEO of the election data analysis firm Catalist, said. “What we know is this is a fast-growing part of the electorate, and there’s opportunity here. The race is really who’s going to invest the time, energy and attention to learn more about these voters, engage more of these voters, and really listen to them.”
    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...-florida-texas
    Last edited by Boatbum; 09-15-2022 at 11:22 AM.

  20. #510
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    Ah, well, it's another case of not being able to predict the future. I do agree that Democrats would be very foolish to take Hispanic voters for granted.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  21. #511
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Ah, well, it's another case of not being able to predict the future. I do agree that Democrats would be very foolish to take Hispanic voters for granted.
    Just so. If they're smart - the D's will increase their outreach efforts.
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  22. #512
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    Lots of Latinos and black folks too are pretty conservative . .

    humans vary

  23. #513
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    So just to be clear..... You are arguing against a graph that used IRS data based on your personal income tax return alone?????? Really????
    I told you why the IRS numbers are wrong and gave you some numbers to show how wrong the IRS numbers are. At least for those in the "income" range I stated.

    As I said "Being toward the top of the economy, most of my household's income does not even appear on tax forms."
    Life is complex.

  24. #514
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    'Lower taxes for the rich' is without the slightest shadow of doubt the single most reliable thing US conservatives try to do when in power.
    Obama and then Biden promised no tax increases for the middle class. Not so much the middle class since the promise covered for those in the 24% below the 1%.

    If you look at Democratic policy, you might see that the Democrats work hard to benefit the rich as much as the Republicans do. They just target a sector that some find more palatable.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    I came here to point out that student loan forgiveness has been out of the news for days, but it looks like you guys have moved on.
    __________________________________________________ ________________________

  26. #516
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    This thread was more interesting when it was about the toxic resentment we all feel towards innocent skool kids.

    I've half a mind to file a complaint.
    You, sir, are a sh*t disturber.

  27. #517
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    Obama and then Biden promised no tax increases for the middle class. Not so much the middle class since the promise covered for those in the 24% below the 1%.

    If you look at Democratic policy, you might see that the Democrats work hard to benefit the rich as much as the Republicans do. They just target a sector that some find more palatable.
    Nothing to do with "more palatable." Just a much bigger sector, so the resulting inequalities in wealth and income tend to be decreased somewhat, with a fairer overall distribution. Otherwise, I pretty much agree with you.

    Tom
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  28. #518
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    bump
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  29. #519
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    I told you why the IRS numbers are wrong and gave you some numbers to show how wrong the IRS numbers are. At least for those in the "income" range I stated.

    As I said "Being toward the top of the economy, most of my household's income does not even appear on tax forms."
    Never read that news to me congratulations.

  30. #520
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    wouldn’t it be great if the end result of this court challenge to biden’s executive order be sorta like the medicare expansion in right wing states?

    where the courts rule that residents of those states that brought the court challenge don’t get debt relief but everybody else does
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  31. #521
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Ah, well, it's another case of not being able to predict the future. I do agree that Democrats would be very foolish to take Hispanic voters for granted.
    The Conservative party here took women and the Chinese immigrant vote for granted and got reduced to a rum losing their most secure and prized seats to independents, mostly female. But the Left also has feet of clay in this regard and lost a seat to the Conservatives for the exact same reason.

  32. #522
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    The Bush tax cuts added 7 trillion bucks the the debt over the last 20 years.
    ITS CHAOS, BE KIND

  33. #523
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    bush tax cuts?

    dont you mean the bush/obama tax cuts?
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  34. #524
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    Default

    I don’t really understand what this loan forgiveness is supposed to accomplish. It’s a gift to anyone who has a current Federal student loan balance. It doesn’t do anything to reduce the cost of college and it doesn’t do anything for past or future borrowers. It doesn’t differentiate between those who are able to make their loan payments and those who can’t. I’ve come to the conclusion that it may be just a political stunt. Lots of fanfare and getting the potential beneficiaries excited knowing full well that the courts would likely kill it. Right around election time. Then focus the blame on the courts. As popular as this program would be for the $10k recipients I think it’s much more unpopular with everyone else. Especially those who didn’t take out student loans and those who did and paid them back.


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  35. #525
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    Default Re: $300 billion wealth transfer

    Quote Originally Posted by Dikhaut View Post
    It doesn't differentiate between those who are able to make their loan payments and those who can't.
    Actually, I'm pretty sure it does this to some degree. The amount of relief available is tied to whether you received a Pell grant or not, which may be a fair indicator of who is likely to be able to pay off loans easily, and who is not.

    Tom
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