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Thread: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    And the point you missed was that if Chicago's murder rate is high and the guns come (illegally) from somewhere else (and about 50% do), shouldn't the place of origin have even higher murder rates since the weapons are not illegal there?
    No. Because all the guns have been sent to Chicago.
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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    And the point you missed was that if Chicago's murder rate is high and the guns come (illegally) from somewhere else (and about 50% do), shouldn't the place of origin have even higher murder rates since the weapons are not illegal there?
    really bro?

    thats a significant failure of logic

    extraordinary even for a bilge rightie
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post

    Actually, if I were appointed god-emperor, I'd make sure only those with two X chromosomes could ever touch a firearm. Immediate death by magic to anyone with testicles who ever picks up a gun. The murder rate (at least by firearms) would immediately drop to a fraction of what it is now. Don't hold your breath.
    Dreaming of being a god-emperor??? You sure seem to limit the use of your potential powers. If it was me, by the end of the first week all evidence of civilization would be gone and 8 billion humans reduced to a few hundred thousand hunter-gatherers. Lightning bolts would eliminate any evil doers in that small population. If you're going to dream you might as well dream big.

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    really bro?

    thats a significant failure of logic

    extraordinary even for a bilge rightie

    I may be a rightie, but I am open to a logic. Please tell me how this is a failure in logic. Here is the Premise

    Gun violence in Chicago is very high despite more restrictive gun laws than the state (which has the 8th most restrictive gun laws):

    Chicago’s homicide rate is an outlier among major U.S. cities. At a rate of 29 firearm homicides per 100,000 residents, it is six times higher than New York City’s and three times higher than in Los Angeles. In 2020 alone, gun homicides increased 52%, resulting in 769 deaths. And the annual impact of gun violence extends much further—in 2020, 3,261 people were wounded in shootings.
    https://oneaimil.org/the-issue/impact-of-gun-violence/


    Others have countered that Chicago is restrictive, but the most the guns come in from out of state. In other words the restrictive gun laws have not prevented access to guns.


    So if the guns come from somewhere else where guns are more accessible, why aren't the weapon related violence of those areas at least as high.

    Disclaimer: Chicago is a city and and the data only shows what states the weapons come so we can't compare one city to the other. It does seem like Indiana is the largest contributor and Gary Indiana as the city that provide most of the Indiana guns to Chicago.
    Last edited by Boatbum; 08-25-2022 at 12:35 PM.

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Here's your failure in logic. The guns smuggled into Chicago from elsewhere weren't brought there for legal purposes. The other guns weren't bought by smugglers, profiteers and straw buyers. Got it?

    Also, how much gang violence is there in rural Indiana? Enquiring minds and all...
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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  6. #76
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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    Here's your failure in logic. The guns smuggled into Chicago from elsewhere weren't brought there for legal purposes. The other guns weren't bought by smugglers, profiteers and straw buyers. Got it?

    Also, how much gang violence is there in rural Indiana? Enquiring minds and all...
    I would have guessed that, but that isn't the point here. I'm not asking how they guns got there, I am asking why in a less restrictive environment (the area where the guns were purchased) they don't have similar gun violence rates. Shouldn't they if they has less restrictive access to the guns?

    FYI: It is illegal to buy guns in a state other than your place of residence so any gun purchased out of state is always illegal. They can never be brought in legally unless you are for example: from Indiana and just passing through the state on the way to Wisconsin. Even then there are restrictions on you you could transport the gun legally.

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    I would have guessed that, but that isn't the point here. I'm not asking how they guns got there, I am asking why in a less restrictive environment (the area where the guns were purchased) they don't have similar gun violence rates. Shouldn't they if they has less restrictive access to the guns?
    Violence of any kind,including gun violence is cultural.

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    Violence of any kind,including gun violence is cultural.
    not necessarily
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  9. #79
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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    not necessarily
    Not necessarily, but there is a pretty strong argument for it. Remember there was a time when anyone could buy a gun:

    Prior to 1968, most adults in the United States could purchase a firearm without state interference. Guns were available in local retail stores, as well as mail-order catalogs, and as long as you hadn’t been convicted of a felony and you had the funds, there weren’t any questions asked.
    So now guns are harder to get, but gun violence is a greater problem. Something was different before 1968 about gun violence than now. Culture is as good of a reason as any. or at least one of the significant reasons.

    thumbnail_IMG_6336.jpg

    chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://health.ucdavis.edu/what-you-can-do/FirearmInjurySlides_WYCD_May21.pdf

    Sorry about the image quality

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    But are they used more there than in PA? That is the question
    Actually, I believe the pertinent question is: Why do people who want stricter gun laws elect people who won't pass such laws?
    "Banning books and not guns seems backwards. Can't think of anyone ever shot by a book

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    The point you so clearly miss is that they shouldn't be used at all in New Jersey.
    The point is city/state laws mean little when we can so easily drive across borders.
    "Banning books and not guns seems backwards. Can't think of anyone ever shot by a book

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Not necessarily, but there is a pretty strong argument for it.
    what's the argument for it?
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    I would have guessed that, but that isn't the point here. I'm not asking how they guns got there, I am asking why in a less restrictive environment (the area where the guns were purchased) they don't have similar gun violence rates. Shouldn't they if they has less restrictive access to the guns?

    FYI: It is illegal to buy guns in a state other than your place of residence so any gun purchased out of state is always illegal. They can never be brought in legally unless you are for example: from Indiana and just passing through the state on the way to Wisconsin. Even then there are restrictions on you you could transport the gun legally.
    You continue to miss the point.

    The guns moving illegally to Chicago are ALL going for some less-than-honest use, no? Otherwise wouldn't they have been bought legally in Illinois?

    Also, you're making odd comparisons again. Chicago is a city unto itself - a large one. What specific "less restrictive" of 2.74 million people concentrated in a geographic area would you like to compare?

    Or maybe you should look at this list and re-consider whether or not Chicago is a good point of comparison when there are much more dangerous places. We'd still need to break down how many murders are by firearm if that's the conversation, but I would think that statistically, guns would play a similar role in homicides no matter where you are. For example, Missouri has some of the most lax gun laws in the US. Their two largest cities have more violence than Chicago does. (https://worldpopulationreview.com/us...most-murders):

    The twenty cities in the United States with the highest murder rates (murders per 100,000 people) are:


    1. St. Louis, MO (69.4)
    2. Baltimore, MD (51.1)
    3. New Orleans, LA (40.6)
    4. Detroit, MI (39.7)
    5. Cleveland, OH (33.7)
    6. Las Vegas, NV (31.4)
    7. Kansas City, MO (31.2)
    8. Memphis, TN (27.1)
    9. Newark, NJ (25.6)
    10. Chicago, IL (24)
    11. Cincinnati, OH (23.8)
    12. Philadelphia, PA (20.2)
    13. Milwaukee, WI (20.0)
    14. Tulsa, OK (18.6)
    15. Pittsburgh, PA (18.4)
    16. Indianapolis, IN (17.7)
    17. Louisville, KY (17.5)
    18. Oakland, CA (17.1)
    19. Washington D.C. (17.0)
    20. Atlanta, GA (16.7)

    St. Louis, Missouri has the highest murder rate of any US city of 69.4 murders per 100,000 people. In 2017, 205 people were murdered in St. Louis. The high likelihood of violence is attributed to the parts of the city, such as East St. Louis, that experience conditions that increase this likelihood such as unsafe housing, a failing economy, and poor school systems.

    The Las Vegas murder rate is 31.4, which includes the 58 people who were tragically killed in the 2017 mass shooting at a country music festival.
    Although murder rates in US cities are extremely high compared to other countries, some cities are experiencing their lowest numbers of murders in years. Newark, New Jersey had 72 murders in 2017, down from 94 in 2016. New York City’s 300 murders in 2017 is the lowest number the city has had since the 1950s.


    Back to state level again, Gun violence per capita (measured in deaths per 100,000 people) is 15.3/100,000 in Indiana, but only 12.1/100,000 in Illinois. It is a whopping 24.5/100,000 in that less restrictive environment of Alaska, and 21.5 in that gun-law-freedom paradise of Missouri. (https://worldpopulationreview.com/st...lence-by-state)
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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  14. #84
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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    So if the guns come from somewhere else where guns are more accessible, why aren't the weapon related violence of those areas at least as high.
    so lets say you have a small town in southern indiana with a population of 1447 people that just happens to have a 'sporting goods' store that has sold more than 850 handguns in the last decade that have been have been used in crimes in chicago

    why would you expect that small rural homogenous town with regard to race, religion, work, and wealth to have a similar or greater level of gun violence than chicago?
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    so lets say you have a small town in southern indiana with a population of 1447 people that just happens to have a 'sporting goods' store that has sold more than 850 handguns in the last decade that have been have been used in crimes in chicago

    why would you expect that small rural homogenous town with regard to race, religion, work, and wealth to have a similar or greater level of gun violence than chicago?
    So you are saying it is more about the population density? How does Chicago fare against say Tampa/St Pete which is the largest city in Florida and also a rather liberal state for gun ownership?

  16. #86
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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    the largest city in florida is jacksonville which has a population of less than ten percent that of chicago metro
    the population of tampa is three percent that of chicago

    what is it with righties and just a grasp of basic easily verifiable facts?
    Last edited by Paul Pless; 08-25-2022 at 02:03 PM.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    So, St. Louis, with lax gun laws and a population of 304,000 had 266 gun homicides in 2020
    Chicago, with stricter gun policies and a population of 2,700,000 had 692 gun homicides in 2020

    St. Louis - 87.5 gun homicides/100,000
    Chicago - 25.2 gun homicides/100,000
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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  18. #88
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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    the largest city in florida is jacksonville which has a population of less than ten percent that of chicago
    the population of tampa is three percent that of chicago

    what is it with righties and just a grasp of basic easily verifiable facts?
    OK Texas then. Houston is a similar size to Chicago. But Texas is much less restrictive than Illinois. How do they fare against Chicago

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    So, St. Louis, with lax gun laws and a population of 304,000 had 266 gun homicides in 2020
    Chicago, with stricter gun policies and a population of 2,700,000 had 692 gun homicides in 2020

    St. Louis - 87.5 gun homicides/100,000
    Chicago - 25.2 gun homicides/100,000
    Paul is saying its a population density thing. St Louis is not much bigger than Tampa try Houston.

  20. #90
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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Give it a rest. Focusing on Chicago is silly, and doesn't make any case for much of anything. Why not St Louis? New Orleans?

    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Paul is saying its a population density thing.
    i suggested with regards to the exact point you made about chicago and where chicago guns come from that it is a population density thing

    that's a somewhat separate issue than violence and gun violence in general

    the biggest correlator of violence, whether gun or otherwise, with regards to place is poverty
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  22. #92
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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Well...

    https://www.fox26houston.com/news/ho...-far-this-year

    DEADLY 2022: Houston leads Chicago, NYC, and LA in homicides so far this year

    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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  23. #93
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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Give it a rest. Focusing on Chicago is silly, and doesn't make any case for much of anything. Why not St Louis? New Orleans?
    Because Chicago gets beaten to death as a 2nd Amendment and right wing talking point?
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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    i suggested with regards to the exact point you made about chicago and where chicago guns come from that it is a population density thing

    that's a somewhat separate issue than violence and gun violence in general

    the biggest correlator of violence, whether gun or otherwise, with regards to place is poverty
    Fair point. But they attempt to contain it through some of the more stringent restrictions and still struggle with the problem. And their only explanation is "they come form out of state". And they are mostly right - about half are from out of state (which is illegal regardless of that person's ability to buy a gun in Illinois) Doesn't it make sense to look more into the causes than the symptom? Would you agree that the vast majority of people that have used gun in Chicago (or any other big city) probably posess the gun illegally? And if you do agree with that then it is already illegal for them to have it! What good is another law making it illegal. Does having someone violate even more gun laws that they are already violating make them less likely to own or use that gun?

  25. #95
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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    What is the positive benefit of making guns easier to get? Why not make it hard?
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    What is the positive benefit of making guns easier to get? Why not make it hard?
    Does making them harder stop a criminal from getting or using one? I think the statistic is that 88% of crimes committed with a gun are from people who were disqualified from having them already. They are already in breach of the law just for possessing them. I think better background checks would be helpful particularly when it comes to suicide and domestic violence. But I do not believe more laws will help much in keeping them away from the people most likely to kill or rob you.

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Fair point. But they attempt to contain it through some of the more stringent restrictions and still struggle with the problem. And their only explanation is "they come form out of state". And they are mostly right - about half are from out of state (which is illegal regardless of that person's ability to buy a gun in Illinois)
    I think some data that I looked at in the last two days showed that 60-70% of the firearms seized in relation to crime in Chicago came from out-of-state depending on what year's data that you look at.

    You need to ask yourself the question - Why do the majority of firearms used in criminal activity come from somewhere other than Chicago, or Illinois, generally? Because the laws are less stringent in those places. Before you talk about how gun crime in places with more relaxed laws are lower, look at St. Louis or Kansas City and tell me how that is keeping the firearms homicide rates lower than those in Chicago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Doesn't it make sense to look more into the causes than the symptom?
    Absolutely!

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Would you agree that the vast majority of people that have used gun in Chicago (or any other big city) probably posess the gun illegally?
    I think that there is some misinformation regarding Chicago gun laws. It is legal to own a firearm in Chicago. There are both state and local restrictions on ownership. How many legal uses versus illegal uses of a firearm are made in Chicago - I don't know, do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    And if you do agree with that then it is already illegal for them to have it! What good is another law making it illegal. Does having someone violate even more gun laws that they are already violating make them less likely to own or use that gun?
    You need to prevent them from getting the illegal firearms in the first place by making those "illegal" and "illegally possessed" firearms equally difficult to obtain everywhere.

    This is a "weakest link" issue.
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  28. #98
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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Does making them harder stop a criminal from getting or using one? I think the statistic is that 88% of crimes committed with a gun are from people who were disqualified from having them already. They are already in breach of the law just for possessing them. I think better background checks would be helpful particularly when it comes to suicide and domestic violence. But I do not believe more laws will help much in keeping them away from the people most likely to kill or rob you.
    MYTH: Gun laws aren’t effective because criminals don’t follow the law.
    FACT: Strong gun laws have been proven to reduce gun violence.

    Laws like background checks stop gun sales to criminals every day. Since 1994, these laws have blocked more than 4 million gun sales to people who could not legally own guns.
    You seem to be falling into some mythical talking points.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    You seem to be falling into some mythical talking points.
    mythical?


    https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...-crime-rep-fa/

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Does making them harder stop a criminal from getting or using one? I think the statistic is that 88% of crimes committed with a gun are from people who were disqualified from having them already. They are already in breach of the law just for possessing them. I think better background checks would be helpful particularly when it comes to suicide and domestic violence. But I do not believe more laws will help much in keeping them away from the people most likely to kill or rob you.
    You didn't answer the question. Again, what is the positive benefit of making guns easier to get?

    Why does every other developed country have a much lower rate of violence involving guns that the US? Homicide rates here are approximately 7X that of other high-income countries, gun homicide 25X higher.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Yes. The mythical one that stronger firearms laws are not effective at keeping those illegal firearms out of the hands of criminals initially.

    https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...er-gun-deaths/
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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    True but as I noted earlier 88% of the violence is perpetrated by a black person onto a black person. That said, I'll bet the majority of this is gang violence in the hood. Without addressing conditions if the poorer densely populated urban areas I don't see this statistic changing any time soon.
    If you have leaks in your boat, and one of them is letting in 88% of the water, where should you focus your efforts?

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    Yes. The mythical one that stronger firearms laws are not effective at keeping those illegal firearms out of the hands of criminals initially.

    https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...er-gun-deaths/
    But you are equating that by ignoring outliers like Chicago which is in the 8th most restrictive state and has created added restriction above an beyond the state. The Politifact piece you cite also says the following:
    There are some limitations to this kind of research, notably that they do not determine cause-and-effect: whether a state has fewer gun deaths because of the law, said Adam Winkler, a University of California Los Angeles law professor and second amendment expert. Other demographic characteristics -- such as education level, marital stability, rural or urban -- might explain the fewer gun deaths in a particular state. Setting that caveat aside, Winkler said Obama’s statement is true.

    There are also a couple of outliers to National Journal’s report. For example, New Hampshire has some of the least restrictive gun laws but also the seventh-lowest gun death rate.
    You assume a causality that is unproven

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    But you are equating that by ignoring outliers like Chicago which is in the 8th most restrictive state and has created added restriction above an beyond the state. The Politifact piece you cite also says the following:

    You assume a causality that is unproven
    Statistics would say otherwise. Because something is not "perfect" and true 100% of the time ignores the fact that something is true 98% of the time, for example.

    And you choose to ignore places like Missouri and Alaska which show greater gun violence at the state level with more lax gun rules. Then for city comparisons Houston, St. Louis, and Kansas City among others. Care to explain any of those for us and why the levels of gun violence are so high?

    I will repeat this for you. Chicago is not the example that you think it to be.
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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    This is an interesting chart to look at gun permissiveness and gun homicides. However you are looking at correlation vs causality. It is interesting that the the states with the highest rates are a small number of contiguous states.


    Attachment 117454

    Sorry about the size/quality. It was the best I could do, but the source is here if you want to examine it more: https://www.criminalattorneycincinna...ides-by-state/
    Last edited by Boatbum; 08-25-2022 at 03:30 PM.

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