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Thread: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

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    Default Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    CHICAGO (AP) Most U.S. adults want to see gun laws made stricter and think gun violence is increasing nationwide, according to a new poll that finds broad public support for a variety of gun restrictions, including many that are supported by majorities of Republicans and gun owners.

    https://apnews.com/article/gun-violence-covid-health-chicago-c912ecc5619e925c5ea7447d36808715
    David G
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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    you go david
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    you go david
    Where? <G>
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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    And yet.....
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    As Donn told me, America is not a democracy……………………..

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Most in the rest of the world say; nothing changes.

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    I thought people wanted 'commonsense' gun laws.

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Doesnt matter what a majority of Americans want if it's not what the GOP and red hats want unless a majority of Americans get out and vote against the rabid minority that is trying to tank our democracy.

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    CHICAGO (AP) — Most U.S. adults want to see gun laws made stricter and think gun violence is increasing nationwide, according to a new poll that finds broad public support for a variety of gun restrictions, including many that are supported by majorities of Republicans and gun owners.

    https://apnews.com/article/gun-violence-covid-health-chicago-c912ecc5619e925c5ea7447d36808715
    The devil is in the details.

    The poll asks if there should be a federal background check for potential gun buyer including private sales and gun shows (85% agreed).

    However by federal law all retail sales of guns already require a federal background check (in every state) All retail gun stores are required to have a Federal Firearms License (FFL) which compels them to do background checks. It is already illegal to sell or buy a gun at a gun show without a federal background check - for obvious reasons all gun show organizers are very strict about making sure this is adhered to by it exhibitors. Private sales is the only place where there is a loophole. However private sales are restricted to the "occasional" sale of guns from ones own collection and there are limits as to how many can be sold before you need an FFL. Also they cannot be sold for a profit - i.e. it is not a business action. Must be sold and bought by residents of the same state. So even though 85% favor this, it is in essence already occurring.


    The poll also says that about 59% (a majority but not an overwhelming majority) support a nationwide ban on AR-15's and similar weapons even though rifles (of all kinds) kill a much smaller number of people than handguns or even the use of hands and/or feet.

    I've said it here before Ghost guns are a much bigger problem as you can build your own gun without a background check, with very limited skills, without being over 18, with an extensive criminal record and the gun is untraceable because it has no number stamped on it. And if you shop wisely all the parts cost less than to buy a brand name gun such as a Glock. This needs legislation ASAP

    We need to start by enforcing the laws we have. The Uvalde killer should have been denied the ability to purchase a gun based on his background alone.

    The other issue is that the vast majority of of crimes (all types of crimes) that are gun related are committed by someone who illegally posses the firearm. It's already illegal for them to have it so how would adding more laws make it better?

    I understand that this is an opinion poll, but I wonder if the above facts might have changed what things people supported?
    Last edited by Boatbum; 08-24-2022 at 09:27 AM.

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Yup, politics comes into play when info is handed out.
    In Canada, our most recent legislation (not yet passed) bans many firearms and devices that were already banned, but most non firearms people won’t know this so it makes the numbers look good. The list of items that now require a license that already required a license is quite broad, but again people not into firearms have no way of knowing that. For instance, it names a requirement for a license to import ammunition from the US as a private purchase. Well that’s great, but we haven’t been able to purchase ammunition whether from the US or within Canada without a license for a long time.
    The politics of it drives me nuts.

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    The devil is in the details.

    The poll asks if there should be a federal background check for potential gun buyer including private sales and gun shows (85%) agreed.

    However by federal law all retail sales of guns already require a federal background check (in every state) All retail gun stores are required to have a Federal Firearms License (FFL) which compels them to do background checks. It is already illegal to sell or buy a gun at a gun show without a federal background check - for obvious reasons all gun show organizers are very strict about making sure this is adhered to by it exhibitors. Private sales is the only place where there is a loophole. However private sales are restricted to the "occasional" sale of guns from ones own collection and there are limits as to how many can be sold before you need an FFL. Also they cannot be sold for a profit - i.e. it is not a business action. Must be sold and bougth by residents of the same state. So even though 85% favor this, it is in essence already occurring.


    The poll also says that about 59% (a majority but not an overwhelming majority) support a nationwide ban on AR-15's and similar weapons even though rifles (of all kinds) kill a much smaller number of people than handguns or even the use of hands and/or feet.

    I've said it here before Ghost guns are a much bigger problem as you can build your own gun without a background check, with very limited skills, without being over 18 and the gun is untraceable because it has no number stamped on it. And if you shop wisely all the parts cost less than to buy a brand name gun such as a Glock. This needs legislation ASAP

    We need to start by enforcing the laws we have. The Uvalde killer should have been denied the ability to purchase a gun based on his background alone.

    The other issue is that the vast majority of of crimes (all types of crimes) that are gun related are committed by someone who illegally posses the firearm. It's already illegal for them to have it so how would adding more laws make it better?

    I understand that this is an opinion poll, but I wonder if the above facts might have changed what things people supported?
    The background check system seems to be somewhat hit-or-miss. And no, current laws relating to firearms are not uniformly enforced. Several mass shooters *should* have been denied the right to purchase, but were not. Uvlade is one, as you say.

    If you look back to the historical restriction of automatic weapons with the National Firearms Act of 1934, that's another situation where the firearms themselves were impacting a limited group - in the same way that the AR-15 and similar rifles do. Frankly, I don't support an outright ban on the AR-15 and rifles that are judged to have similar properties. What I do support is adding them to the NFA of 1934 in such a way that you need to go through some extra hoops to own them and pay the tax to do so. It seems that the NFA of 1934 was consistent with the 2nd Amendment, so I don't see why adding large caliber/high muzzle-energy semi-automatic rifles with a large magazine capacity shouldn't be the same.

    Pistols in public circulation ARE a scourge and a major cause of firearms deaths - what do you think we can do there?

    IMO, anyone caught in possession of the parts for, or a completed "ghost gun" should have a very short trial (Were you in possession, were you observed to be in possession, etc...) and then go to jail and lose your ability to ever own a firearm of any type, ever again.

    The biggest problem in the US, is the lack of consistent firearms laws from state-to-state. This allows for the movement of firearms from places where the laws are lax to those where they are more stringent. Chicago is a fantastic example.

    As Mr. Plessner points out, much of the use of firearms in our society has to do with people who are racially, socially, educationally, and economically disadvantaged. Those are fix-able problems.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    The background check system seems to be somewhat hit-or-miss. And no, current laws relating to firearms are not uniformly enforced. Several mass shooters *should* have been denied the right to purchase, but were not. Uvlade is one, as you say.
    That is true so we need to tighten up the process of making sure people involved in domestic violence get charged and convicted which fly's in the face of the current court trend for m=no felonies in the US so that they get disqualified in the background check

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    If you look back to the historical restriction of automatic weapons with the National Firearms Act of 1934, that's another situation where the firearms themselves were impacting a limited group - in the same way that the AR-15 and similar rifles do. Frankly, I don't support an outright ban on the AR-15 and rifles that are judged to have similar properties. What I do support is adding them to the NFA of 1934 in such a way that you need to go through some extra hoops to own them and pay the tax to do so. It seems that the NFA of 1934 was consistent with the 2nd Amendment, so I don't see why adding large caliber/high muzzle-energy semi-automatic rifles with a large magazine capacity shouldn't be the same.
    All riffles - not just AR 15's only contribute a small number of homicides. As I said a foot and/or hand has killed more people than all rifles combined.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    Pistols in public circulation ARE a scourge and a major cause of firearms deaths - what do you think we can do there?
    If the US repealed the second amendment and then made it illegal to manufacture, sell, buy, or own a handgun it would not stop the problem. There are already hundreds of millions of handguns in the US AND even if you could recall them all it would only create a lucrative market for organized crime as prohibition did for alcohol. Most of the handguns used in crimes are already illegally obtained. Gangs, carjackers, and professional criminals - they all have them. It turns out that adolescent gang members have a proclivity for large caliber revolvers (the 357 magnum is a favorite)

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    IMO, anyone caught in possession of the parts for, or a completed "ghost gun" should have a very short trial (Were you in possession, were you observed to be in possession, etc...) and then go to jail and lose your ability to ever own a firearm of any type, ever again.
    I don't disagree thought it would be fun to build just one. They need laws that can stop enterprising businesses from selling the parts. Right now it is legal and in the open. Check this out: https://www.polymer80.com/partsandaccessories It only becomes illegal once you have assembled the parts and then only if you are ineligible from having a firearm according to federal laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    The biggest problem in the US, is the lack of consistent firearms laws from state-to-state. This allows for the movement of firearms from places where the laws are lax to those where they are more stringent. Chicago is a fantastic example.
    The federal law is consistent. All sales require a background check from NCIS or the FBI. But many states also add additional restrictions which leads to the lack of uniformity

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    As Mr. Plessner points out, much of the use of firearms in our society has to do with people who are racially, socially, educationally, and economically disadvantaged. Those are fix-able problems.
    Considering there are nearly a half a billion firearms in the US (more guns than people) it is actually impressive how few of them are actually used illegally. I am not trying to minimize the problem - just making an observation. The US needs to be better at making sure the wrong people cannot obtain firearms, and we need to address the mental health problem that makes firearms used so much. Actually guns kill more people through suicide than by crimes. We need to change our culture and we need to offer better mental health services to the general public
    Last edited by Boatbum; 08-24-2022 at 09:20 AM.

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    All rifles - not just AR 15's only contribute a small number of homicides. As I said a foot and/or hand has killed more people than all rifles combined.
    Yes, but the number of homicides that seem to be committed with a single AR-15 or the like tends to be more than one. I would still segregate those particular rifles to add to the NFA of 1934, not your uncle Bob's bolt-action hunting rifle with a 5 round magazine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    If the US repealed the second amendment and then made it illegal to manufacture, sell, buy, or own a handgun it would not stop the problem. There are already hundreds of millions of handguns in the US AND even if you could recall them all it would only create a lucrative market for organized crime as prohibition did for alcohol. Most of the handguns used in crimes are already illegally obtained. Gangs, carjackers, and professional criminals - they all have them. It turns out that adolescent gang members have a proclivity for large caliber revolvers (the 357 magnum is a favorite)
    Well great. Seeing as how we have millions of the darned things, we don't need to put any more into circulation, now do we? Maybe we just outlaw the manufacture of handguns for public consumption? Eventually, they will get confiscated, parts will break, deteriorate and they'll come out of circulation over time. I think that kinda works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    I don't disagree thought it would be fun to build just one. They need laws that can stop enterprising businesses from selling the parts. Right now it is legal and in the open. Check this out: https://www.polymer80.com/partsandaccessories It only becomes illegal once you have assembled the parts and then only if you are ineligible from having a firearm according to federal laws.
    I concur. The manufacture, let alone sale, of these ghost gun parts needs to be illegal for a private citizen or a company to make those parts. The assembly of those parts into a functioning firearm should be a more severely punished crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    The federal law is consistent. All sales require a background check from NCIS or the FBI. But many states also add additional restrictions which leads to the lack of uniformity.
    I think you misinterpret or misunderstand my position. Yes. Federal law is consistent. State laws are not. The states with additional restrictions tend, overall, to have less gun crime and fewer gun deaths. There are outliers - take Vermont - but they are a distinct exception to the 'rule'. But, guns - particularly illegally possessed guns in places with strong restrictions - again Chicago is a prime example - have come from somewhere else where the rules are more lax. IF state law was more consistent and consistently stringent on basics - training, storage, licensing, state-level registration, etc. - I think you would see fewer issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Considering there are nearly a half a billion firearms in the US (more guns than people) it is actually impressive how few of them are actually used illegally. I am not trying to minimize the problem - just making an observation. The US needs to be better at making sure the wrong people cannot obtain firearms, and we need to address the mental health problem that makes firearms used so much. Actually guns kill more people through suicide than by crimes. We need to change our culture and we need to offer better mental health services to the general public
    Granted - along with the problems listed above in my previous post. BUT - and this is an important BUT - when a single person with a rifle and kill 17 people, wound 17 people, and traumatize many more in a single event, gun violence is an issue we need to deal with, not just ignore because "there are half a billion firearms" out there. Where there is a will, there is a way. It took a long time for that many firearms to get into circulation, it will take an equally long time to deal with them. When it becomes economically unviable for manufacturers to continue to make firearms for the general public we will see some change. Certainly the case won by families of the Sandy Hook victims against Remington is a watershed moment. Uvalde families appear to be preparing lawsuits in relation to that shooting - against many entites, including the firearms makers. Maybe the insurance companies behind the gun manufacturers will be the ones to demand change? Who knows?
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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post


    Granted - along with the problems listed above in my previous post. BUT - and this is an important BUT - when a single person with a rifle and kill 17 people, wound 17 people, and traumatize many more in a single event, gun violence is an issue we need to deal with, not just ignore because "there are half a billion firearms" out there. Where there is a will, there is a way. It took a long time for that many firearms to get into circulation, it will take an equally long time to deal with them. When it becomes economically unviable for manufacturers to continue to make firearms for the general public we will see some change. Certainly the case won by families of the Sandy Hook victims against Remington is a watershed moment. Uvalde families appear to be preparing lawsuits in relation to that shooting - against many entites, including the firearms makers. Maybe the insurance companies behind the gun manufacturers will be the ones to demand change? Who knows?
    Yes it is unfortunate, but from public health perspective of the biggest bang for the buck (no pun intended) it's not the AR-15's Its the illegally obtained handguns. Illinois has the 8th most restrictive gun laws and yet (as of Jun 2) 971 people have been shot in Chicago. And that represents a drop from the previous year! That's an average of a little over 6 per day. If they were all done at the same time by the same person it would qualify as a mass shooting every day.

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Yes it is unfortunate, but from public health perspective of the biggest bang for the buck (no pun intended) it's not the AR-15's Its the illegally obtained handguns. Illinois has the 8th most restrictive gun laws and yet (as of Jun 2) 971 people have been shot in Chicago. And that represents a drop from the previous year! That's an average of a little over 6 per day. If they were all done at the same time by the same person it would qualify as a mass shooting every day.
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...es/4854619001/
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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Yes, unregistered pistols and 'ghost guns' are a big problem, and definitely doing something about. But why is it that those on the right feel ALWAYS compelled use Chicago as an example? If you look at the data, it doesn't show what you think. New Orleans and St Louis tend to be much worse. More data than you ever wanted here.






    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 08-24-2022 at 11:27 AM.
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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Why don't most Americans vote for politicians who want better gun laws and/or the women the right to abort?
    "Banning books and not guns seems backwards. Can't think of anyone ever shot by a book

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Yes, unregistered pistols and 'ghost guns' are a big problem, and definitely doing something about. But why is it that those on the right feel ALWAYS compelled use Chicago as an example? If you look at the data, it doesn't show what you think. New Orleans and St Louis tend to be much worse. More data than you ever wanted here.






    Chicago is an outlier, but, it is the poster-child victim of firearms policies that are very lax elsewhere. As such it is a good example of the need for social programs in Chicago, and tighter restrictions elsewhere.

    Those places with worse gun death data also tend to have more lax laws and similar issues of inequity. Coincidence?
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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Chicago has plenty of big-city problems (gang violence, largely), but it barely makes the top ten in gun homicides per capita, not really an outlier at all. It's kind of bizarre that it's a standard right-wing talking point.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 08-24-2022 at 11:44 AM.
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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Chicago seems to enjoy a reputation, whether or not it deserves it.
    "Banning books and not guns seems backwards. Can't think of anyone ever shot by a book

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Chicago has plenty of big-city problems (gang violence, largely), but it barely makes the top ten in gun homicides per capita, not really an outlier at all. It's kind of bizarre that it's a standard right-wing talking point.
    The thing that makes it that right-wing talking point is precisely Chicago's strict firearms laws - they get abused as an example that strict firearms regulation, "doesn't work".

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    Chicago seems to enjoy a reputation, whether or not it deserves it.
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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Chicago has plenty of big-city problems (gang violence, largely), but it barely makes the top ten in gun homicides per capita, not really an outlier at all. It's kind of bizarre that it's a standard right-wing talking point.
    You are correct. What makes it a strong point is the Illinois has the 8th most restrictive gun laws and Chicago has made their gun restrictions even more strict. What has it gotten them exactly? Chicago ranks as the 10th most homicides per capita.
    Last edited by Boatbum; 08-24-2022 at 12:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    Chicago is an outlier, but, it is the poster-child victim of firearms policies that are very lax elsewhere. As such it is a good example of the need for social programs in Chicago, and tighter restrictions elsewhere.

    Those places with worse gun death data also tend to have more lax laws and similar issues of inequity. Coincidence?
    If they are lax elsewhere why don't those areas have even higher levels of gun deaths?

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    You're bright enough to realize that making a simple correlation like that isn't really a valid argument. Obviously there are a lot of factors other than just gun laws.

    I suppose that the underlying argument is that 'restricting guns won't reduce gun deaths', yes?
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    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    You're bright enough to realize that making a simple correlation like that isn't really a valid argument.
    It was a question not a statement. But, if all the guns are being brought into Chicago from elsewhere (and by elsewhere I would assume Indiana) why doesn't Indiana have a higher number of gun deaths? I'm not making a correlation, I am just asking. And since this thread is about the gun laws that people want.......It would be illegal to buy a gun in any state other than the one of legal residence. You have to initiate the purchase in the other sate and then have the gun shop send it to an FFL in Illinois where you can pick it up. So all these guns that come from elsewhere are there illegally. Which begs the question what would better background checks do to fix this? They are obviously brought in illegally - in fact many are in the hands of convicted felons or gang members.

    Edited to say: I'm not really sure which comment you were referring to so I may have responded about the wrong subject.

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    If they are lax elsewhere why don't those areas have even higher levels of gun deaths?
    I see you didn't pay attention to the chart that Keith posted. Here's the source: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/s...ty/firearm.htm

    The answer to your questions is those states DO have higher levels.
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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    I see you didn't pay attention to the chart that Keith posted. Here's the source: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/s...ty/firearm.htm

    The answer to your questions is those states DO have higher levels.

    ATF Trace data shows the top five states where guns recovered in Illinois were originally purchased from are Illinois (49.8%), Indiana (16.7%), Missouri (5.4%), Wisconsin (3.9%) and Kentucky (2.6%). Federal agents at the ATF identified the source state of 11,708 traced firearms in 2020.
    OK, I see that now and when you combine to with the above ATF data I see where you are going with this. Chicago's homicide rate (2020) was 28.6/100,000 which puts it in a virtual tie with #1 Mississippi. That is no where near the homicide rates for the states listed above. It's a little shady because I was talking about cities and you brought in state data The point remains that these guns were illegally obtained. Exactly what additional law would would stop that? They are already breaking the law by bringing them in the state. Short of repealing the 2nd amendment and finding a foolproof way to recover all guns while preventing organized crime from developing a lucrative firearms black market what is the solution other than to change our culture? There are too many suicides by all methods. There are too many people who resort to lethal violence to solve conflict or simply because of a serious mental disorder.


    The initial thread was actually about peoples opinions about gun laws. Much of what they say they want they already have. I assume (though I could not find the methodology) that they do not inform them of current Federal Background Check laws, Gun Show purchases and the laws around private gun sales, so when 87% say they want Background checks for these things what do they really think they are asking for? Do they know that only 364 (out of almost 14,000 in 2019) homicides were committed with rifles? All manner of rifle, not just the AR-15. If they knew that might they want to look for different laws/restrictions?
    Last edited by Boatbum; 08-24-2022 at 01:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    OK, I see that now and when you combine to with the above ATF data I see where you are going with this. Chicago's homicide rate (2020) was 28.6/100,000 which puts it in a virtual tie with #1 Mississippi. That is no where near the homicide rates for the states listed above. It's a little shady because I was talking about cities and you brought in state data The point remains that these guns were illegally obtained. Exactly what additional law would would stop that? They are already breaking the law by bringing them in the state. Short of repealing the 2nd amendment and finding a foolproof way to recover all guns while preventing organized crime for developing a lucrative firearms black market what is the solution other than to change our culture? There are too many suicides by all methods. There are too many people who resort to lethal violence to solve conflict or simply because of a serious mental disorder.
    That figure varies year to year as far as the source of "illegal" firearms seized in Chicago. Look up other articles by the local government and reputable newspapers and you'll find that Chicago's firearms seized by the police have come from other places other than the ones you listed in the ATF trace data in other years.

    I will make this point - it is disingenous to compare Chicago (a city) to all of Mississippi for firearms deaths per capita. It is also disingenuous to use the total homicide rate - how many of those homicides were committed with a firearm? (ETA : what was the source? If you look at the CBS news data from 2022 listed below, the homicide rate for Chicago was 18.26/100,000 - it rated as #28 out of 65 cities for homicides. Certainly not all of those were firearms homicides.)

    There are LOTS of dangerous cities for homicide: https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/mur...u-s-cities/66/ - but that's overall homicide rates. City data is highly specific - state firearms homicide data per capita is a better reflection of the overall impact of gun laws and a more even-handed comparison.

    If you want to know what state level firearms legislation works, look to places like Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, New Jersey, and Massachusetts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    The initial thread was actually about peoples opinions about gun laws. Much of what they say they want they already have. I assume (though I could not find the methodology) that they do not inform them of current Federal Background Check laws, Gun Show purchases and the laws around private gun sales, so when 87% say they want Background checks for these things what do they really think they are asking for? Do they know that only 364 (out of almost 14,000 in 2019) homicides were committed with rifles? All manner of rifle, not just the AR-15. If they knew that might they want to look for different laws/restrictions?
    Wait - what? https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...proval-polling - That shows that more than half want MORE stringent rules.



    I don't think the general public cares what type of firearms are used in homicides - they know that the homicide rate per capita in the US is large and they want action to change that.
    Last edited by Canoez; 08-24-2022 at 01:25 PM.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  29. #29
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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Chicago's homicide rate (2020) was 28.6/100,000 which puts it in a virtual tie with #1 Mississippi.
    No, no, no; you don't get to do that. Comparing a state with a diverse mix of rural and urban areas with a large dense city is not reasonable. And if you just mean Chicago proper, not the entire metropolitan area, it's worse yet; lots of economic sorting there.

    Shall we do international comparisons between the US and the rest of the civilized world?
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    I will make this point - it is disingenous to compare Chicago (a city) to all of Mississippi for firearms deaths per capita. It is also disingenuous to use the total homicide rate - how many of those homicides were committed with a firearm?
    You do know that you and Keith introduced state data? I was referring to Chicago. AND I even said that what I was saying was a little "shady" because we were mixing state and city data. Unfortunately I could not figure out another way to continue the discussion since I was about Chicago. [/QUOTE]


    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    If you want to know what state level firearms legislation works, look to places like Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, New Jersey, and Massachusetts.
    I do know I lived in Rhode Island and now live in Massachusetts. By the way Rhode Island is not a poster child for how to create great firearm legislation. It's a poorly run state in terms of its firearms laws and by quite a few other metrics. Again though you and Keith brought states into the discussion. Not me. My only pint was that Illinois id a strict gun control state and that Chicago's gin restrictions are stricter still but they still manage to have over 6 homicides per day



    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    Wait - what? https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...proval-polling - That shows that more than half want MORE stringent rules.



    I don't think the general public cares what type of firearms are used in homicides - they know that the homicide rate per capita in the US is large and they want action to change that.
    Start a thread on that link and we can discuss it, is not the poll that was referenced in this thread. I was responding to that one. However how you ask a question is just as import as the answer. When people say they want background checks for sales, gun shows and private transactions, do they know that there are already laws governing this? Or are they just assuming that the meme of gun show loophole is correct and they want to close it. Do they assume that some states do not have background checks currently? If they knew that there was a federal law already that requires background checks for gun sales in every state, and if they knew that background checks had to be done for all gun show sales and if they knew that private sales were (by law) limited to selling a very small number of guns from a private collection and that there were already several restrictions to private sales would they sill feel the same way? and if they still feel the same way what more are they looking for?

    Would they sill want to restrict the ownership of AR-15's if they knew it would only eliminate about 360 of the 14,000 annual homicides? If they knew that most gun deaths are from suicides would they want a different set of laws? If they knew that the vast majority of crimes were committed with guns that were already illegal for the person to possess?

    Maybe they do make the survey recipient aware of these thigs first. I don't know. I tried to find the survey methodology but couldn't.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    No, no, no; you don't get to do that. Comparing a state with a diverse mix of rural and urban areas with a large dense city is not reasonable. And if you just mean Chicago proper, not the entire metropolitan area, it's worse yet; lots of economic sorting there.

    Shall we do international comparisons between the US and the rest of the civilized world?
    Keith, please be fair. I put a disclaimer in what I said and only said it because YOU injected state data while I was referring to the City of Chicago.

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    True enough - but most gun laws are on a state level, and if you're going to make comparisons, state-to-state or city-to-city makes more sense than mixing them.

    One way or another, Chicago is not a particularly useful example, and doesn't tell us much of anything.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    True enough - but most gun laws are on a state level, and if you're going to make comparisons, state-to-state or city-to-city makes more sense than mixing them.

    One way or another, Chicago is not a particularly useful example, and doesn't tell us much of anything.
    I wasn't making a comparison per se. What I was saying is for all the gun laws in Illinois compounded by the added restrictions in Chicago has not accomplished very much for the city. 6 murders per day. What has all those restrictions gotten them? Would there be 12 murders per day if they didn't have them?


    Governments and laws are funny things. I grew up taking the bus to school. The bus had only a driver. Decades later one kid was crossing in front of the bus., the driver didn't see him and ran him over. Because of this one incident which had never occurred for the preceding 50 years the town passed laws that the bus has to have a second adult who gets off the bus and checks in front and underneath before the driver can move to the next stop. Now it is a tragedy that this boy got killed but can we temper what we do with a little common sense? I'm all for keeping firearms out of the hands of people that cannot use them responsibly or are a risk to themselves. By all means lets do thorough background checks. But the majority of guns that commit crimes are in the hands of people who are already not allowed to have them. Chicago is a great example of this.

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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Yes, we did introduce state-wide data. A city is very granular data. A state will give you a better idea of how state law works.

    You don't want to be about such a specific area - unless you're trying to push a _very_ specific narrative of course.

    (FYI, you can spout off as much as you want, but with 3.9 firearm homicides/100,000 in Rhode Island, they're doing _something_ right.)

    Chicago does NOT have 6 homicides per day on average. In 2020 there were as many as 774 (out of 2.74 million citizens). With 365 days in a year, that's an average of 2.12/day, not 6. Now boil that down. How many of those 774 homicides were by firearm and how many by other means? If what we're discussing is firearms, the measure should be firearms homicide per capita.

    If you're looking at firearms homicide per capita for cities this is from 2016 - it is a 5 year average rate. There are many places where the likelihood is greater that you'll be killed with a firearm than Chicago:

    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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    Default Re: Most in US say they want stricter gun laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post

    Chicago does NOT have 6 homicides per day on average. In 2020 there were as many as 774 (out of 2.74 million citizens). With 365 days in a year, that's an average of 2.12/day, not 6. Now boil that down. How many of those 774 homicides were by firearm and how many by other means? If what we're discussing is firearms, the measure should be firearms homicide per capita.
    You are right and if I miss stated it I apologize.

    I had intended to say shootings and may have said murders.


    Here is what I was trying to say:

    Chicago Had 971 Shootings In First 5 Months Of The Year. Violence Is Trending Down From Pandemic Peak, But ‘Is Still Way Too High,’ Expert Says
    https://blockclubchicago.org/2022/06...h-expert-says/


    This was as of Jun 2,2022 (the 154th day of the year)

    971/154=6.3

    So there are 6.3 shootings per day. Again if I absent mindedly said homicides I apologize


    Edited to say: I checked back on the originating post and I did in fact say "homicide" which was inadvertently misleading.

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