Page 1 of 4 12 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 35 of 127

Thread: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Northeast shore of Lake Ontario
    Posts
    1,111

    Default Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    Liz Cheney made a very brave speech laying out what was in your country's future should you not care or were too busy to care. Your future is yours to call. The rest of the civilized world will not be welcoming to you...You look down upon the taliban? If you join the t train YOU are the American version Country over party....

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    39,295

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    There seems to be no chance of a Democrat winning the election, so I would answer her call, switch to Republican for that one day, and vote for her. Despite her flaws, she is better than the Trumpian who is beating her now.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

    "Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." - Will Rogers

    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - Groucho Marx

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Sorrento Australia
    Posts
    4,879

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    Last edited by Hallam; 08-16-2022 at 11:54 PM.
    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. Leonardo da Vinci.

    If war is the answer........... it must be a profoundly stupid question.

    "Freighters on the nod on the surface of the bay, One of these days we're going to sail away"
    Bruce Cockburn

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Port Stephens
    Posts
    25,496

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    Aaaand, presumably, another several million GOP votes bite the dust.
    Rick

    Lean and nosey like a ferret

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Wow-Ming
    Posts
    20,755

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    By a large margin, Cheney lost to Harriet Hageman.


    I was born in Wyoming and still live here, but this makes me deeply ashamed.
    Last edited by Chip-skiff; 08-17-2022 at 12:10 AM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    39,295

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    I think we will regret this.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

    "Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." - Will Rogers

    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - Groucho Marx

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Rubicon,WI
    Posts
    1,250

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    I have no use for Dick Cheney who put us on the course to waste lives and treasure for twenty years.
    But if Liz Cheney can, which I doubt heal the unreconstructed South and all it stands for.
    In this day and age, character and conviction to do right regardless is ennobling. Listen to her concession speech.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    victoria, australia. (1 address now)
    Posts
    70,675

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    They deserve everything that they get, or don't get.

    The civil war continues.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 1999
    Location
    Norwalk, Ohio
    Posts
    34,445

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    .
    A profile in courage:

    Liz Cheney loses in Wyoming — but what she gains may end up more valuable

    Cheney was the crown jewel of Trump’s revenge tour. And yet her defeat reflects both the party's vulnerabilities and her newfound power.

    By Charlie Sykes, MSNBC Opinion Columnist


    Rep. Liz Cheney had no illusions about her fate.

    “If the cost of standing up for the Constitution is losing the House seat,” Cheney told The New York Times’ Jonathan Martin this month, “then that’s a price I’m willing to pay.”

    With Cheney’s defeat in Tuesday’s Wyoming House primary, former President Donald Trump has helped end the congressional careers of eight of the 10 House Republicans who voted to impeach him for his role in the Jan. 6 insurrection. Four of them retired, and now four have been defeated in their GOP primaries.

    This is a hard concept to understand for much of official Washington, for whom clinging to power is the prime directive and electoral defeat is its worst fear.

    Cheney was the crown jewel of Trump’s revenge tour, and, as much as any other election result, her ouster epitomizes the arc of the Trumpified GOP two years from the next presidential election.

    And yet, it also reflects the party's vulnerabilities, because Cheney will leave office more influential and admired — and perhaps even powerful — than ever before.

    This is a hard concept to understand for much of official Washington, for whom clinging to power is the prime directive and electoral defeat is its worst fear.

    Like Trump, they misunderstood and underestimated the iron lady of Wyoming. But she is also a political rarity with few historical parallels: a mainstream politician willing not only to give up political power, but also to risk excommunication from the only political world she has ever known.

    In an age when actual political courage is vanishingly rare, she personified John F. Kennedy’s definition of a profile in courage: “In whatever arena of life one may meet the challenge of courage, whatever may be the sacrifices he faces if he follows his conscience — the loss of his friends, his fortune, his contentment, even the esteem of his fellow men — each man must decide for himself the course he will follow.”

    Indeed, as NBC News’ Jonathan Allen notes, “Cheney has arguably given up the most of any elected Republican — one who had been on a path to potentially become speaker of the House someday — to draw a line against Trump and his efforts to overturn the 2020 election by all means available to him.”

    Whatever your opinion of her political views, she never wavered in her commitment to hold Trump accountable. When she announced she would vote to impeach Trump in January 2021, every sentence in her statement delivered a hammer blow:

    The President of the United States summoned this mob, assembled the mob, and lit the flame of this attack.

    Everything that followed was his doing.

    None of this would have happened without the President.

    The President could have immediately and forcefully intervened to stop the violence.

    He did not.

    There has never been a greater betrayal by a President of the United States of his office and his oath to the Constitution.
    Last edited by Tom Montgomery; 08-17-2022 at 05:58 AM.
    "I'll tell you why [religion's] not a scam. In my opinion, all right? Tide goes in, tide goes out. Never a miscommunication. You can't explain that."Bill O'Reilly

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 1999
    Location
    Norwalk, Ohio
    Posts
    34,445

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    .
    Conclusion:

    By any measure, this was an audacious and risky move, not only because she was the third-highest-ranking member of the GOP House leadership at the time, but also because she represented a district (the at-large seat from Wyoming) that Trump won by more than 46 points in 2020.

    Over the next few months, Republicans like House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy of California and former South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley, who initially claimed to be appalled by the attack on the Capitol, scurried back to win Trump’s favor. Even some of the Republicans who voted with her to impeach tried to mute their criticism (and lost anyway).

    Cheney remained rock solid.

    When she was ousted from her leadership position in the GOP, she didn’t waver. When she was censured by her state party and it became clear she would face near-certain defeat in the 2022 primary, she continued to warn that Trump continued to pose a clear and present danger.

    Because not only did she recognize Trump’s existential threat to democracy; she acted on that threat. And that meant putting the defense of the Constitution ahead of every other political and ideological priority. Cheney had consistently voted with Trump, and she remains a staunch conservative — on everything from foreign policy to government spending — but (unlike some of her critics) she recognized that those goals and principles now needed to be subordinated to the fight for democracy.

    And so she continued to vote with Republicans on many issues, but she was willing to find common ground with the Democrats who wanted to investigate Trump’s role in the attempted coup. She accepted Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s appointment to the special committee and took on a marquee role as Trump’s most relentless prosecutor.

    She knew this would make her a pariah in her own tribe. She did it anyway, accepting that she would lose friends, colleagues, donors and many of the alliances she had built up over a lifetime in politics.

    This earned Cheney a somewhat strange (and sometimes strained) new respect among Democrats but subjected her to the full fury of MAGA vitriol. She has spent tens of thousands of dollars on special security because of threats of violence.

    Few Washington politicos can begin to understand the moral and physical courage this required. But this 56-year-old woman put all the strutting phonies of MAGA manliness and masculine “toughness” to shame.

    She didn’t want or need a seat at this table. She didn’t think another two years sitting at the right hand of an invertebrate like Kevin McCarthy — in a caucus stacked with cranks, bigots, cowards and time-serving hypocrites — was worth the price of her silence.

    And yet, she also didn’t back away from what appeared to be a losing fight.

    Cheney could have retired and avoided Tuesday night’s shellacking. But, to quote Margaret Thatcher, the lady’s not for turning. In her closing ad this week, she looked directly into the camera and said:

    “America cannot remain free if we abandon the truth. The lie that the 2020 presidential election was stolen is insidious. It preys on those who love their country. It is a door Donald Trump opened to manipulate Americans to abandon their principles, to sacrifice their freedom, to justify violence, to ignore the rulings of our courts and the rule of law.”

    In a state like Wyoming, that argument was unlikely to win an election. But that wasn’t the point: Cheney wanted to have the last word.

    And ultimately, she had a different kind of endgame in mind, anyway.

    “Nobody would piss off the entire state of Wyoming without another plan,” a Wyoming GOP politico told Allen. But, as my colleague Sarah Longwell wrote, “What if … and try to stay with me here … the endgame is doing the right thing?”

    For much of the new GOP, that is also incomprehensible. But Cheney has an eye on the verdict of history.

    I imagine Liz Cheney has been thinking about Margaret Chase Smith lately. On June 1, 1950, Smith, the Republican freshman senator from Maine, took to the Senate floor to deliver what became known as her “Declaration of Conscience.”

    Months earlier, her GOP colleague Sen. Joseph McCarthy had launched his conspiracy theories on the world, accusing unknown communist plotters in the deep state of trying to subvert the country. While many Republicans were privately appalled by McCarthy’s baseless charges, most of the men in the caucus kept silent.

    In a state like Wyoming, that argument was unlikely to win an election. But that wasn’t the point.

    The Senate’s official history recalls the moment Chase rose to speak:

    “Mr. President, I would like to speak briefly and simply about a serious national condition. ... The United States Senate has long enjoyed worldwide respect as the greatest deliberative body. ... But recently that deliberative character has ... been debased to ... a forum of hate and character assassination.”

    She spoke for just 15 minutes. She was a loyal Republican, she said, but she didn’t “want to see the Republican Party ride to political victory on the Four Horsemen of Calumny — Fear, Ignorance, Bigotry and Smear.”

    McCarthy dismissed Smith and those who agreed with her as “Snow White and the Six Dwarfs.” But 4 years later, in December 1954, the Senate censured McCarthy for conduct “contrary to senatorial traditions.” As the Senate history recounts: “McCarthy’s career was over. Margaret Chase Smith’s career was just beginning.”

    Keep that in mind before you write Liz Cheney’s final political obituary.

    https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-...C_1mDln2wjp_jQ
    "I'll tell you why [religion's] not a scam. In my opinion, all right? Tide goes in, tide goes out. Never a miscommunication. You can't explain that."Bill O'Reilly

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    victoria, australia. (1 address now)
    Posts
    70,675

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    I hope she has good security…. you can't have political comeback if your dead. And in America today that is a real risk for her, especially after nailing her erstwhile colleagues to the wall.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    West Sacramento, CA
    Posts
    10,169

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    If only she'd let her convictions of conscience and public service honor carry her along on the current to a change of political heart and identity and be born again as a Democrat.

    It'll never happen, and it doesn't need to for her effort to bear the fruit she wants, but if she did do something like that, and there were any other Rs with the same potential for conviction of country over personal ambition, we might just dig ourselves out of the situation the big money and the pandering Rs have put us in for the last several decades. As I've been saying for a while, since trmp, any one of the Rs could be a national hero if they would see that light and do the right thing.
    Speak softly and carry a mouthful of marbles.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Sorrento Australia
    Posts
    4,879

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    Are the Democrats that squeaky clean when it comes to big money? ….. and the military industrial complex?
    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. Leonardo da Vinci.

    If war is the answer........... it must be a profoundly stupid question.

    "Freighters on the nod on the surface of the bay, One of these days we're going to sail away"
    Bruce Cockburn

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Saint Helena Island, SC
    Posts
    12,598

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom from Rubicon View Post
    But if Liz Cheney can, which I doubt heal the unreconstructed South and all it stands for.
    .
    It’s comments like this that almost make me almost want to vote for trump. Almost.
    I liked Liz Cheney. Very gutsy woman, but she was running in Wyoming. Wyoming, which BTW is not, and never has been part of any south, unreconstructed or not.
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

  15. #15
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    the hills
    Posts
    67,192

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hallam View Post
    Are the Democrats that squeaky clean when it comes to big money? ….. and the military industrial complex?
    Absolutely not.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    2 states: NJ and confusion
    Posts
    43,529

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    The GOP has gone to a very dark place. November's elections may actually be the most important one ever. Thanks to our misconstruing of the 2nd, those trumpsters are well armed.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    NorCAL
    Posts
    20,244

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynard38 View Post
    It’s comments like this that almost make me almost want to vote for trump. Almost.
    I liked Liz Cheney. Very gutsy woman, but she was running in Wyoming. Wyoming, which BTW is not, and never has been part of any south, unreconstructed or not.
    I find Liz Cheney honorable, capable and likable. Like you said it is Wyoming. She is a famous Jackson, Wyoming Republican - a nuanced difference . Understanding the underlining current of this Republican party fits with why she was soundly defeated last night - it is not about Trump but working along side the Democrats who can be blamed for the evolving demographics that has significantly changed the face and attitudes of the entire country.
    Without friends none of this is possible.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Woodbridge, Suffolk, UK
    Posts
    27,919

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    I am much more worried about the long term misconstruction of the First. That’s what gives the enemies of your State their power. The Second is a detail.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Deepest Darkest Wales
    Posts
    24,994

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    From three weeks ago... Prescient?



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z71YjJaNvAg. Link for apple victims
    I'd much rather lay in my bunk all freakin day lookin at Youtube videos .

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Mountain lakes of Vermont
    Posts
    17,782

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    If Trump runs in 2024, will she have the guts to run as an independent just to ensure that he does not win?
    She would never win a GOP primary and would have to run as an independent. She would get the vote of every Republican disgusted with the Trump mob.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.
    Skiing is the next best thing to having wings.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Deepest Darkest Wales
    Posts
    24,994

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    I'd much rather lay in my bunk all freakin day lookin at Youtube videos .

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Farmington, Oregon
    Posts
    20,466

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    hageman's victory speech. migod.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,796

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hallam View Post
    Hardly in the same class as Ted Kennedy's concession speech: "the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die". Say what you want about him, but he was a great orator. It's not just her words, but her delivery. She seems more like an angry woman with a vendetta. She will make a lot of money as the conservative voice on CNN and MSNBC

    She keeps comparing herself to Lincoln and US Grant. She has a long way to go to get there.



  24. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Sorrento Australia
    Posts
    4,879

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    Looks like she is not one to make a big fuss. Give her three years and we will know the depth of what she is made of. Slow and deadly I reckon….. still waters run deep? The speech was not overly inspiring but what she said was solid as a rock.
    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. Leonardo da Vinci.

    If war is the answer........... it must be a profoundly stupid question.

    "Freighters on the nod on the surface of the bay, One of these days we're going to sail away"
    Bruce Cockburn

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    61,877

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    Understanding the underlying current of this Republican party fits with why she was soundly defeated last night - it is not about Trump but working alongside the Democrats who can be blamed for the evolving demographics that has significantly changed the face and attitudes of the entire country.
    I think you're 100% wrong that 'it's not about Trump'. It's about Trump. Ms Cheney recognizes that he's a danger to the country. Most of her constituents disagree. That's the central reason she lost; the rest of it is trivial.

    About your other point, it might help to take the long view. The Chinese Exclusion Act was passed in 1888, and national origins quotas for immigration were instituted in 1924, based on the 1890 census, specifically designed to keep America white and Protestant. Blatant racism was standard procedure at the time, but in writing the law they were mainly concerned with 'inferior races' like Italians and Poles and Eastern European Jews. OTOH, up until 1965 there were zero restrictions on immigration from the western hemisphere. The law was changed again to essentially the current system in 1965, eliminating the national quotas. The immigrant percentage of the population has returned to what it was for most of US history, although they're not mostly from Europe anymore.

    I think the most important line on this graph is for the south, which had essentially no immigration from the mid 19th-century until fairly recently.





    (Sorry, probably too much thread drift. But it explains a lot)
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 08-17-2022 at 09:17 AM.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    NorCAL
    Posts
    20,244

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    The immigrant percentage of the population has returned to what it was for most of US history, although they're not mostly from Europe anymore.





    (Sorry, probably too much thread drift. But it explains a lot)
    yeah - this is a thread drift.

    Is that not the issue and what the MAGA Republican party has taken up? from 225 million in 1976 to 330 million today. 50 million or more newly arriving since 1980 non white often non christians changing the face of America, impacting the culture, causing rapid development of open space, greater demands of resources which includes housing costs and access to assistance and often arriving with issues and problems that were not here or recognized before. No doubt that most folks that are arriving had contributed greatly but there are many who are damaged, come from societies that were or are broken which has made them broken and could be receiving perceived benefits and preferential treatment while others are sold out, trashed out or forgotten.
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 08-17-2022 at 09:28 AM.
    Without friends none of this is possible.

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    39,295

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    The GOP has gone to a very dark place. November's elections may actually be the most important one ever. Thanks to our misconstruing of the 2nd, those trumpsters are well armed.
    I'm less worried about the vote and more worried about the corruption of the vote.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

    "Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." - Will Rogers

    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - Groucho Marx

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    61,877

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    Is that not the issue and what the MAGA Republican party has taken up? from 225 million in 1976 to 330 million today. 50 million or more newly arriving since 1980 non white often non christians changing the face of America, impacting the culture, causing rapid development of open space, greater demands of resources which includes housing costs and access to assistance and often arriving with issues and problems that were not here or recognized before. No doubt that most folks that are arriving had contributed greatly but there are many who are damaged, come from societies that were or are broken which has made them broken and could be receiving perceived benefits and preferential treatment while others are sold out, trashed out or forgotten.
    Yes, it's something that gets them excited, just exactly like the folks in 100 years ago getting all bent out of shape about all those Italian Catholics and Russian Jews. America will never be the same!

    But population growth has been decreasing since the 1940s, and is now lower than at any time in the past 80 years. That ain't the problem.



    And a not-quite-quibble: It would help understanding if we'd used some other word than 'broken'. 'Broken' is binary; the window is either broken or it isn't. NONE of the serious problems we face are binary; they're generally a continuum, greater or lesser, and some with multiple interacting variables. 'Broken" just screws up our thinking.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 08-17-2022 at 09:59 AM.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    NorCAL
    Posts
    20,244

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    of course the problem is an expanding new population and the folks here. Pulling up 1940s data and comparing it to today maybe a nonstarter or you hit it on the head. it is The folks arriving or came recently has changed. It is an easy excerise to look around and see who is around you as you drive, where you grab a bite, when you shop in a big box or who comes to help you with your home.

    How does one define a person who comes from an unequal, corrupt or undemocratic society who has escaped the tragic home country maybe seen and done things that are horrible, criminal, illegal or unethical and then released into a society that appears to be fair but clearly uneven. I referred to them as broken immigrants. I am sure there is a better term.

    I know this might be a stretch but in my thread about selling a boat on line it is really a question of trust. We do not trust each other anymore. many do not want to see others face to face. Everyone is worried about being cheated or defrauded. We would rather junk or donate rather than take the chance of being taken advantage of or being stolen from.
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 08-17-2022 at 10:09 AM.
    Without friends none of this is possible.

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    29,604

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    Hmmmm... yer saying that was 'one of them 'unethical' immigrants what offered you a certified check for your boat?

    Seriously - you lose any semblance of seriousness when you couch your argument in such rhetoric.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    61,877

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    So was the same true of Jews of leaving eastern Europe in 1905? How about Irish fleeing the famine in 1850? The argument has been the same for 170 years; they aren't like us, they're worse (this last generally implied rather then stated honestly, but it's always the meaning). It was bullsh!t then, it's bullsh!t now.

    Here's a cartoon from 1893, with the shadows showing the prosperous exclusionary folks when they first arrived, or their grandfathers did. Substitute an immigrant from Somalia or Syria or China, and it's exactly the same now, minus the top hats.

    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    29,604

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    Headline: 'I gots mine - screw you!'
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    82,449

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hallam View Post
    Are the Democrats that squeaky clean when it comes to big money? ….. and the military industrial complex?
    No... not squeaky-clean at all.

    No... not squeaky-clean at all.

    No... not squeaky-clean at all.

    No... not squeaky-clean at all.

    No... not squeaky-clean at all.

    I've repeated this dozens of times... what's a few more?


    Fact is.. we are currently in full Acton Dictum mode.

    "When there is an accumulation of money and power into fewer and fewer hands, people with the mentality of gangsters come to the fore. Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" -- Lord Acton<Keep in mind that he's British, and a historian, and he said this in 1877. This is not the first time the pattern has played out>

    And neither party is immune to the various sorts of dysfunctional perversity that ensues.

    BUT -- and this is huge: one party is largely embracing the turn toward corruption with open arms. The other is largely resisting the trend.

    You see the difference?


    The Tu Quoque Fallacy (AKA Appeal to Hypocrisy Fallacy) – Definition and Example --

    tu quoque in Latin means "You, too". And when you attempt to distract from your own guilt [or that of any one person/party] by calling out someone else's similar guilt, you're committing this fallacy.


    The name makes sense – it's like you're saying "Well I may have done this, but you did it, too!" Now, think about that. Just because someone else did something similar to (or the same as) what you did, it doesn't make you any less guilty. You've still committed whatever crime or done whatever bad thing you've done.

    This is also called an "appeal to hypocrisy" fallacy, because the person making the argument (let's call them Person A) often calls out the fact that someone else (Person B) did something similar to what they did. Person A argues that they may have messed up, but Person B did the same thing so should be punished. Person A is being a hypocrite because they're trying to escape the blame they'd like to assign to Person B.

    It's tempting to use this type of argument, because people are always looking to shift the blame from themselves to others. It's especially enticing when that other person is not blameless and therefore seems to deserve some share of the guilt.

    But this isn't an effective argument strategy because, while distracting, a tu quoque argument doesn't actually prove you innocent. It just draws attention (falsely) away from the issue at hand, which is your misdeed.

    One thing to remember about tu quoque fallacies is that the information the person making the argument cites is typically irrelevant to the case at hand. Just because Person B is guilty also, doesn't mean Person A is any less guilty. So that accusation that Person A makes is irrelevant to their case.

    Example of a Tu Quoque Fallacy

    Let's go back to our teenager. Perhaps they've been caught skipping school, and their parents want to ground them for a week. The teenager might argue, "Yeah I skipped third and fourth periods, but Marta did, too!"

    While it's not great that Marta skipped class as well, it doesn't really make that teen any less guilty of skipping school. They just knew someone who did the same thing, and are trying to justify what they did by bringing up Marta's transgression as well. But it doesn't mean that they skipped any less school.
    Here's another example: perhaps your friend caught you cheating on a test, and threatened to turn you into the teacher. But you saw them cheat in another class last year, so you say "I may have cheated today, but you cheated on that math test last year, too!"

    Again, their cheating a year ago doesn't make you any less guilty right now. While it might feel good to say, "You did that, too, so how could you think I should be punished for it!", it's not really a strong or relevant argument to make.

    Instead of resorting to this type of argument, make sure you take responsibility for your actions and keep your points relevant to the issue at hand. Don't think you can get away with something just by calling out someone else's hypocrisy. It's likely not going to help your case.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,796

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post

    How does one define a person who comes from an unequal, corrupt or undemocratic society who has escaped the tragic home country maybe seen and done things that are horrible, criminal, illegal or unethical and then released into a society that appears to be fair but clearly uneven. I referred to them as broken immigrants. I am sure there is a better term.
    I would describe them as not too different from the early European settlers of North America.

    "unequal, corrupt or undemocratic society who has escaped the tragic home" could be applied to 95% of the peoples republic of China. What if the Chinese Government actually facilitated the illegal immigration of their people to the US. How long would it take for them to take over control of the country. I realize I sound xenophobic here, but China has has quietly taken economic control of several smaller countries. They could send 200 million citizens to the US an it would hardly make a dent in their population. What would stop that at present. Is the oppression that a Chinese citizen experiences in Chana that different form the oppression that thye experience in several Central American Countries?

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Norwalk CT
    Posts
    2,666

    Default Re: Liz Cheney , You go girl!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    If only she'd let her convictions of conscience and public service honor carry her along on the current to a change of political heart and identity and be born again as a Democrat.

    It'll never happen, and it doesn't need to for her effort to bear the fruit she wants, but if she did do something like that, and there were any other Rs with the same potential for conviction of country over personal ambition, we might just dig ourselves out of the situation the big money and the pandering Rs have put us in for the last several decades. As I've been saying for a while, since trmp, any one of the Rs could be a national hero if they would see that light and do the right thing.
    We dont need Liz Cheney to be a democrat. There is nothing wrong with a truly principled conservative. We used to have a bunch of them in the house and the senate. Alan Simpson, Orrin Hatch come to mind. I rarely agreed with them but they had principles and they stuck to them even when they came to a compromise with the other side. Thats what a healthy democracy looks like.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •