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Thread: Workshop organization and benches

  1. #1
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    Default Workshop organization and benches

    I looked around but thereís no recent threads about organizing a shop. Looking for advice on layout, storage, stuff that should be mobile, and so on. Pictures would be great.

    I know a lot of you will probably have a lot more space for dedicated boat building than I do. Iím hoping to add ďworkshopĒ to the current duties of my small detached garage. I only have 13í x 19í inside, and I store all my yard tools and some bikes in there. Luckily, I do not need to park the car in the garage. My current thinking is to get as much up on the walls as I can, with the yard tools at the garage door end and the boatbuilding tools and benches at the far end. I donít have a lot of ceiling height (8í6Ē, lower with the garage door open) either, but I may put shelf brackets high up on the long side to store small boat masts and lumber. (The windows trim up right against the ceiling, but itíll be ok if some stuff is across it.) Thereís a panel ceiling and beadboard paneling on the walls, so I canít put stuff up in the rafters or between studs like some garage organization shows. Anyways, enough about my shop. Iíd love to see yours and any advice you have.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Workshop organization and benches

    Is the area in front of your garage flat? If so, I'd suggest _everything_ should be mobile (tools, benches): if you get the wheels that pop down, but when they pop up, the benches are on the feet, not wheels, that would be best. Then you can move stuff out into the driveway at times.

    That's something that doesn't work in my 18x18 "two-car" garage (which has a a boat and two suspended canoes on one side), but I still rely upon the open space behind the garage door by having the table saw right up against it on one side so that the infeed (and me, standing) are outside the open door. For ripping mast strips, I pulled the table saw about a foot further out (propped up to be level), as I needed ~16.5 feet infeed and outfeed.

    For wall lumber storage, I ended up installing some of these: https://www.amazon.com/PortaMate-PBR...dp/B004DGIZMW/ which work out well. It goes from the ceiling down to above bench height (I think they have shorter ones too).
    Daniel

    Building a Campion Apple 16.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Workshop organization and benches


    This has worked well for me. Skinny bench on the wall, the chopsaw is 16' from the wall (there is a window going the other way which has come in handy when the miter cuts go the other way. I happen to be a big fan of pegboard (others like slotwall type systems) but for me the key is getting stuff up where I can see it. Well, sort of....I do have a tendency to just grab hooks and put them wherever, no carefully drawn silhouettes of tools in my shop! The shelf under the bench is a dust collector, if I did it again I think wire shelving might be a better choice. The 2'x12' table has been invaluable over the years. Big enough to stay put but small enough to tuck out of the way. Big whiteboard is great too.
    Steve

    If you would have a good boat, be a good guy when you build her - honest, careful, patient, strong.
    H.A. Calahan

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Workshop organization and benches

    Thank you!

    I realized today I’ll be limited to only really working on lumber 13’ or shorter, because I can’t turn it around with the garage width. At least in the winter when I don’t want to open the garage door. I’m in Wisconsin and garage is unheated, so our cold winters will likely end my boatbuilding attempts until it warms up.

    I like the idea of a long skinny bench. I was planning to put a bench at the back wall (opposite the garage door on the 13’ wall) but maybe I should instead try for one long bench down one side of the 19’ wall.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Workshop organization and benches

    Regrets I've had a few,


    My 'bench' is on the right as you look in. I've figured my arms shadow the natural light when planing or working. I think benches are better on the left so that you're right arm is behind the light and not shadowing. I've got piping there though.

    Before anything else, it costs very little to improve the number of electrical outlets - I wish I had multiple sockets everywhere. Cost is very low. A new consumer unit is also pretty cheap and a 16A socket for slightly more powerful amateur tools (might be different in the USA). I'd put them just above the height of an 8 x 4 sheet side on. One suspended in the middle over the boat might not be a bad idea to reduce cable trail.

    I'd also go big on the lighting. LED panel lights seem to be the thing now, over the boat, over the bench, lots of lighting to see well especially in winter. Again cost is quite low. Make it real bright so you can see what your doing. Sockets on the build jig too. Can't be too many.

    And I wish my garage walls were white not brick to reflect that light, again cheap.

    A few foam tiles next to the bench for standing on, and cushioning that dropped tool.

    A longer thinner bench than a typical cabinet makers bench but otherwise flat on the front apron and legs for edge planing planks and a decent vice rebated in to hold a plank against the bench. Maybe a gapped (split) route for clamping planks too. Most are too low, and a higher than typical bench is better. See Paul Sellers or Cosman. Th eEnglish workbench is pretty cheap and easy to build and Paul Sellers will shows you how in wood or plywood.

    I should have screwed a timber rack to the wall high up, again cost is low. Besides timber racks, adjustable shelving is available thats modular and you can have lots of racks for different wood. High up you might be able to still get under it. Wood on the floor picks up grit which nicks your planer blades...

    It increases the footprint, but getting table/ bandsaws on mobile bases helps, and you need to decide on dust extraction.

    You can do lot with a track saw for cutting things to rough size and a plywood cutting board stores up against the wall. Trouble on your own is infeed and outfield support of long pieces with the bandsaw and table saw - you might need to get some rollers to help.

    I regret not having my building box on wheels that can be engaged when needed from the start so I could have moved it side to side or in and out.

    Having a fabric tarp that span between your garage doors when opened will give you some more space just outside and it won't matter if it starts raining. You breathe less crap in if you can have the doors open and work outside, especially if you say use a round over bit in laminate trimmer to round edges.

    If you intend to be gluing in winter, you might need an infra red pig lamp hung up over the bench to give some ambient heat to the job overnight. I think really you're better building traditional lapstrake if you want to work in the off season.

    It's all alot easier to do all this with an empty garage before there's a boat in there but most of that list is low cost. You can do alot without power tools, but I'd go big and spend on the bandsaw - at least a 14" model with a 300 depth of cut, cast iron band wheels, steel tool post and guide holder, rack mounted angle adjust & 1.5kw/ 2hp motor so you can split a thick board into two. Understand and tune it to an inch of its life and get some better thin strong blades which make it seem more powerful and cut easier with a smaller kerf. A good bandsaw will hold most of its value.

    Oh and make a 'rag in the a oiler' for nowt. Paul Sellers shows you. Keeps all you tools, blades, saws cast iron bed surfaces clean and rust free.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 08-16-2022 at 03:57 PM.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Workshop organization and benches

    8’ bench is against wall. Has two vises and 3/4” ply on wall for storage. Epoxy cart can be moved. Shelves are either against a wall or on wheels. LED lighting.
    1065C5AE-9393-4AB2-83E5-99C3E380877A.jpg

    Table saw/router table is on wheels. At about 700lbs. You need to want to move it.
    Outfeed table/cabinet also on wheels. Ten drawers for lots of tools. Useful work surface when not using saw.

    5730A5D4-5BC2-4470-9203-562E52944914.jpg

    All other power tools are on wheels.
    Shop has doors on both ends, so ripping, planing and jointing is not limited in length.

    I just wish it was bigger.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Workshop organization and benches

    This is another approach to keep the work space flexible.
    https://www.offcenterharbor.com/vide...tting-up-shop/

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Workshop organization and benches

    That Offset Harbor video is great! I just donít have any of the elements: space, wood floors, open studs to hang shelves and brackets from. I can tack up my plans anywhere on the wood paneling when they come, and I have a 4x6í whiteboard thatíll go on the wall.

    Iím now cleaning and trying to organize all the yard stuff away. I have a small yard and still ended up with a bunch of stuff, and most of it Iíd like to keep. Iíve got two old pallets that Iíve used to keep things off the floor that shouldnít get damp ó those might get cut down to make a lumber rack for the wall.

    The most pressing thing besides organizing enough room, is my lack of electricity and lighting. Iím guessing this is going to cost me ó this is a 1920s ďModel TĒ garage and never had electric. Our frost line is deep but luckily the garage isnít far to the house ó unluckily it is brick pavers in the way that will need to be pulled up and put back down for a trench. While Iím at it, I think Iíll have at least two circuits run through the trench so that one can be for a future electric car charger, and one can be a sub-panel for lights and outlets.

    I imagine running outlets to each wall behind paneling, with a very low slope roof and a paneling ceiling, will be a pain and so if code allows, Iíll ask for the outlet to be in the ceiling where a garage door opener would go, and use a retractable extension cord hung from there. And then maybe an outlet on the wall below the sub-panel where the power will come in. 4 light boxes for a 13x19í space should be enough and Iíll hang my own LED work light strips.

    I hope the quotes donít come in too expensive. I donít have the experience to do the electrical myself and would rather pay someone to do it to code and also due to permits/inspections.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Workshop organization and benches

    There have been some Fine Woodworking articles on shop organization in small spaces.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Workshop organization and benches

    There's a book by Fine woodworking called Great Workshops. You would love it. It covers small shops , and has great photos. Organization, dust collection and all. Dave
    David Satter www.sattersrestoration.com
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Workshop organization and benches

    Quote Originally Posted by MattMKE View Post
    The most pressing thing besides organizing enough room, is my lack of electricity and lighting. I’m guessing this is going to cost me — this is a 1920s “Model T” garage and never had electric. Our frost line is deep but luckily the garage isn’t far to the house — unluckily it is brick pavers in the way that will need to be pulled up and put back down for a trench. While I’m at it, I think I’ll have at least two circuits run through the trench so that one can be for a future electric car charger, and one can be a sub-panel for lights and outlets.
    For the electric car charger, the easiest thing to do is just have the electrician put in a NEMA 14-50 outlet on a 50amp breaker (the same type as electric driers). Stick in near the front of the garage, and you can forget about it until you actually have the car -- then you can just plug in an off-the-shelf charger (no electrician needed), and assuming you are still using the garage as a shop, run the cable outside (the cables can be up to ~20ft, which is plenty to park outside if it's at the _front_ of the garage, not if it were at the back).

    Having more outlets and lights is certainly better than less, but I was fine for a couple years with two outlets, each (thankfully) on their own 20amp circuit -- what was in the garage when I moved in. One circuit was for the "big" tools (table saw, band saw, etc -- only ever one at a time, but as one person, that's all that's needed), the other for dust collection and lights (I used plug in LED tube lights, which daisy chain together --- lighting up the whole place took a couple amps, which left plenty for the dust collector). I did eventually add a third outlet, on its own 20amp circuit -- not really necessary, but I was adding a 50amp outlet for a car charger, and it seemed silly not to take advantage of having an electrician on the clock.
    Last edited by dbp1; 08-17-2022 at 07:37 AM.
    Daniel

    Building a Campion Apple 16.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Workshop organization and benches

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Brown View Post
    There have been some Fine Woodworking articles on shop organization in small spaces.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Satter View Post
    There's a book by Fine woodworking called Great Workshops. You would love it. It covers small shops , and has great photos. Organization, dust collection and all. Dave
    Thank you! I will check both of these out!

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Workshop organization and benches

    Quote Originally Posted by JimConlin View Post
    8’ bench is against wall. Has two vises and 3/4” ply on wall for storage. Epoxy cart can be moved. Shelves are either against a wall or on wheels. LED lighting.
    1065C5AE-9393-4AB2-83E5-99C3E380877A.jpg




    All other power tools are on wheels.
    Shop has doors on both ends, so ripping, planing and jointing is not limited in length.

    I just wish it was bigger.
    Nice patternmakers vice there. Is it a Lee Valley? Definitely not an Emmert

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Workshop organization and benches

    stored lumber is always in my way..I built ceiling hung lumber racks.(above my extensive lighting set up.. as to not interfere with light distribution) any time Iwant to visually check stock it's just a glance skyward. I usually need to reach for a new stick of the stuff so infrequently it make sense for my use

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Workshop organization and benches

    Scott Landis did “The Workbench Book” and “The Workshop Book” still available on Amazon, as is the Fine Woodworking book. The pictures and diagrams free up your “Imagination” (jeez I hate Spellcheck!)to adapt ideas that best fit your site and tools, and projects.
    Last edited by Paul Schweiss; 08-17-2022 at 06:55 PM.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Workshop organization and benches

    I’ll grab those books too! Used prices are good, and they’re a quick way to learn, rather than through trial and error.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Workshop organization and benches

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Nice patternmakers vice there. Is it a Lee Valley? Definitely not an Emmert
    Vise is from Highland Hardware. I haven’t had it long enough to decide I like it.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Workshop organization and benches

    If getting electric into your garage ends up too costly, the cordless tools now available might be an intelligent way to go. The Bosch pro 12v series of drills and jigsaws etc aren't overly expensive and are of a better scale than the 18v ranges.

    If you went for the 'builders range' gear instead, you can usually sell them again for much of the value when you're done on ebay, such is the demand.

    I'd also consider a kit, it'll go together much quicker and some boats are nearly all plywood, or sold as full kits like from Clint Chase or CLC and you won't need to be thicknessing timber for getting timber down to size. One advantage of John Welsford's boats like the Navigator is he shows alloy spars which are cheap and easy to get and mean you won't need to cut a 4 x 4 or cut strips for a bird mouth mast. You only need a jigsaw for one of his boats. There is a central plywood bottom panel so no keelson etc to fabricate. There are cordless circular saws now though so even getting some strips or gunwales cut out wouldn't be impossible with cordless. I'm still mostly corded as my purchases preceeded whats now available.

    If you went hard at it during longer summer days, you can get a fair bit done. Maybe get using fast hardener so you don't have to wait so long and get more than one thing done at a time. A smaller boat like a decent sailing 9ft pram will be alot of joy and little pain. For sail and oar, CLC's Noreaster 'Dory' (it's actually pretty round bilged) is alot of boat for the weight, and doesn't need much jig at all, for a more sail focussed design the Welsford Navigator is a good boat to build in a smaller garage.

    I've only got a small garage, you quickly realise the more stationary equipment the less space you've got for the boat, so you'll have more space to work in if you keep to hand toolin.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 08-18-2022 at 10:05 AM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimConlin View Post
    Vise is from Highland Hardware. I haven’t had it long enough to decide I like it.
    I've had the one for Highland as well. Like you I mounted it so that the rear jaw was flush with the face of bench. I also bough some rawhide and put it on the inside of the jaws with contact cement so it was similar to the Tucker Vise. The rawhide makes a nice difference when I have a softwood in the vise. I definitely find that is useful to be able to adjust the material's position in relation to the bench. I have not found it lacking when used as a standard face vise either.


    I don't believe you can get these anymore. The Tucker vise went out of production several years ago, and Highland no longer sells them either. There was another site that sold them as well, but they stopped at least two or three years ago. I think the issue is that they don't sell that many and most of the parts are cast in China now so shipping 50 pounds of vise parts is pretty expensive for the number that get sold. That leaves buying the antique Emmert vises on Ebay.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Workshop organization and benches

    Building a 18" x 16' woodshop right now. Everything on droppable casters. Lighting it with (7) 4' LED strips. Repurposing some old kitchen cabinets from our in-progress kitchen remodel as a temporary expedient.

    Edited shop plan.jpg
    Gerard>
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  21. #21
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    Default Re: Workshop organization and benches

    My current plan is to use an old wood exterior door as a mobile bench with multiple 2x4s built up into legs, and those casters that unlock to allow it to sit on the floor. Would something like an Irwin woodworkers vise be fine to start? I was just going to use clamps. Planning to only need a hand plane and sanders for my first boat (a Chase CNC kit) but may get into routing and need a miter saw later (at which point I’ll build other benches.)

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Workshop organization and benches

    Quote Originally Posted by MattMKE View Post
    My current plan is to use an old wood exterior door as a mobile bench with multiple 2x4s built up into legs, and those casters that unlock to allow it to sit on the floor. Would something like an Irwin woodworkers vise be fine to start? I was just going to use clamps. Planning to only need a hand plane and sanders for my first boat (a Chase CNC kit) but may get into routing and need a miter saw later (at which point I’ll build other benches.)
    If thats all the tools you need, you can probably get away without wiring electricity. I wouldn't want to use a battery powered sander (though people do!), but you could easily run an extension cord for that and for a set of these lights: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01HBT3BVM (or something like them). Get a heavy gauge, external cord, split it inside the garage into three (one "hardwired" for the lights, one for the sander, and the third for a battery charger for drill etc). Assuming you are within 100' of a source of power, you would probably be fine!
    Daniel

    Building a Campion Apple 16.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Workshop organization and benches

    I do have the ability to run an extension cord from an exterior outlet on the house. I forgot to mention that. Lights will still need to be hung but I can change those later to outlets in the ceiling.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Workshop organization and benches

    Quote Originally Posted by MattMKE View Post
    My current plan is to use an old wood exterior door as a mobile bench with multiple 2x4s built up into legs, and those casters that unlock to allow it to sit on the floor. Would something like an Irwin woodworkers vise be fine to start? I was just going to use clamps. Planning to only need a hand plane and sanders for my first boat (a Chase CNC kit) but may get into routing and need a miter saw later (at which point I’ll build other benches.)
    I built my boat with just an extension cable. My only vice was a little one, equivalent to that Irwin model. You'll be fine. You'll need very little with a kit, especially a Clint Chase boat as the thwarts are plywood etc.

    I've only just found out the old Stanley 702 vices, they are a bit better for also vertical clamping I think. On the end of a door it'll hold a narrow piece of work for you resting on the door skin. About $10-20 on ebay. See how it's orientated different to a normal vice that is parrallel to the clamping edge - it's perpendicular.





    I seem to pull out my No.5 plane more as time goes by. Just flatten, fettle and sharpen an old Stanley into shape. Those cheap blue handle Irwin M444 chisel sets (5 for £25) are very good for the money though you might not need them even. If you buy one - the 19mm is properly balanced. If you can pick up a cheap laminate trimmer and a round over bit, you can have things looking professional on the corners. A mirka sanding pad is very comfortable, light and can be hooked to a vacuum. I used it far more than the power sanders. They're really excellent. Most epoxy will come off with a heat gun and scraper though. You really won't need to sand much, especially if you work clean and tape off around a glue job.



    Lecky and Light are just nice to haves, if you want glue to go off inside in winter though you'll need a bit of heat over the job overnight or fast hardener.

    When Drascombe built the plywood Luggers (from their own kit of parts) they screwed/ bolted the hull planks together (plastic bolts?) so they could keep working as the glue was going off, and they'd put the hull together in 1-2 days!
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 08-19-2022 at 08:58 AM.

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    Default Re: Workshop organization and benches

    A month and a week ago I moved into my new to me home, one of the attractions here is the 88 sq metre ( about 950 sq ft) workshop. There was an office in one corner, the walls of which were structural so there is some work to do there to replace those with plywood box girders, the rest of the place was infested with makeshift benches and shelves so there has been a lot of demolition going on.
    I've built the first two benches, one with the sharpening gear and along a bit the medium (16mm chuck) drill press, and the other has a Record 9in woodworking vice mounted properly at one end. There are two more benches to build, some more shelving, then the machinery to come in.
    Sawbench, ( MBS 250 with extension tables) 6in x 48in jointer, 15in planer, spindle moulder ( shaper in US English), two woodturning lathes, a metal working lathe, bench grinder ( the toolrest and the grinding wheel are different from the one on the sharpening bench) a mill and the heavy drill press.
    I've had the electrician in for a day so now have a new set of circuit breakers and 16 power outlets around the shop.

    It will take a little while yet, but I'm very much looking forward to spending my days out there.

    John Welsford

    Edit, I forgot to add two bandsaws to the list of fixed machinery. "Two? A 12in Walker Turner which with some mods to the guides is a nice machine for light work, a narrow 6tpi blade goes on that one, and the other is a 20in KUFO with a 3 hp motor, that takes either a 3/4in x 3 tpi, or a 1/2in x 4 tpi blade, that one is effectively my sawmill.
    Actually, I have three, there is a little, almost a toy, 6in one which with some mods is able to cut up to about 3/4in deep, it goes inside a bigger boat for finishing work so I dont have to climb in and out for every cut. ( yes I've got several jigsaws, but prefer a bandsaw for some work).


    JW
    Last edited by john welsford; 08-19-2022 at 05:44 PM.
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    Default Re: Workshop organization and benches

    Thank you for the tools and vise recommendations, Edward Pearson. Our winters are such a deep freeze here that winter will put an end to my boat building at home until spring.

    John, your boat designs and builds are legends for those of us just getting into boatbuilding now. I’d love to see how you decide to lay things out (drawings or photos) if it is not too much trouble to ask.

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    Default Re: Workshop organization and benches

    Quote Originally Posted by MattMKE View Post
    Thank you for the tools and vise recommendations, Edward Pearson. Our winters are such a deep freeze here that winter will put an end to my boat building at home until spring.

    John, your boat designs and builds are legends for those of us just getting into boatbuilding now. I’d love to see how you decide to lay things out (drawings or photos) if it is not too much trouble to ask.
    Thank you Matt. I'll do that, but want to get the shop project a bit further along before I post a comprehensive report. I do though post the occasional progress report on my facebook page.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

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    Default Re: Workshop organization and benches

    So far, I havenít actually added any organization to my shop as it is, but I have cleaned the garage quite a bit and got rid of a bunch of the detritus that builds up naturally in a garage.

    Since we have lots of snow in winter here, I have both an electric snow blower and an electric mower for summer, of similar sizes. So Iím going to build a ďplatformĒ out of an old pallet, that either machine can fit under. In summer, the snow blower will go on top of the platform and the lawn mower will park under it. In winter, Iíll reverse them. This looks like itíll save quite a bit of space in a small garage.

    I also found a used DeWalt shelf locally on Craigslist ó very dirty and beat up since it seems to have been in an auto body shop. Iíve given it a thorough cleaning with simple green and reassembled it. The shelf is 4í long and has 3 tiers, and the load rating is something like 1500 lbs per shelf ó plenty for putting tools and epoxy and paint on. (The paint and epoxy wonít be living out there during our freezing winter, though.) Some of the yard work stuff like plant sprays can also live on top, and this will all tuck out of the way against a wall.

    I still have an old exterior door to build a bench out of, but got rid of some of the old storm windows and other random doors and glass that old houses come with. So much more space!

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Workshop organization and benches

    Did the PO insulate the walls before putting up the paneling? That and tightening up any air gaps would go a long way towards extending your working season in the shop. It shouldn't take much to keep the space warm enough to work in. Your tools will appreciate it too.
    Steve

    If you would have a good boat, be a good guy when you build her - honest, careful, patient, strong.
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    Default Re: Workshop organization and benches

    They are not insulated, and this being a 1920s era garage, it’s wood sheathing with wood siding over. Between the lack of electricity, lack of insulation, and poor state of the garage overhead door and the windows, I’m tempted to get a quote to have someone “gut remodel” it, which must be a thing.

    There’s apparently some holes in the soffit wood on the back corner facing the neighbor’s lot, because there were squirrel nests up in the “attic” (low slope hipped roof means it has like 20” of headroom in the “attic” — not really much of a loft.)

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Woodbridge, Suffolk, UK
    Posts
    28,483

    Default Re: Workshop organization and benches

    By tradition, a boatbuilder’s bench, as opposed to a cabinet maker’s bench, is long and narrow.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Albuquerque, NM
    Posts
    31,285

    Default Re: Workshop organization and benches

    ^ Cabinet maker benches are too. A traditional Roubo is like 6-9 feet long by 2' wide.
    Gerard>
    Albuquerque, NM

    Next election, vote against EVERY Republican, for EVERY office, at EVERY level. Be patriotic, save the country.

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Oct 2021
    Location
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    58

    Default Re: Workshop organization and benches

    I recall the long bench illustrated in the home boat shop diagram in The Compleat Cruiser. I don’t think I have the space to build a permanent bench that long. A door bench and saw horses that I can move around will have to suffice. I’ll have just enough room lengthwise to build a 16’ boat on a strong back some day — I’m starting a little bit smaller with my first boat. And with the other stuff that has to live in storage in the garage, I’ll have room around the sides.

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