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Thread: Ciao

  1. #106
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    Default Re: Ciao

    Quote Originally Posted by ron ll View Post
    Enjoying your photos Joe and I’m envious. And this has nothing to do with you, but I can’t help adding this to the discussion.

    Fined $1,500 and expelled from Venice.
    Attachment 117033
    Australians, according to the only article I found that mentioned a nationality - so you Americans are of the hook for this one .

    Pete
    The Ignore feature, lowering blood pressure since 1862. Ahhhhhhh.

  2. #107
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    Default Re: Ciao

    Also in Venice, they’re ticketing people who sit on stairways outside churches or public spaces.
    ITS CHAOS, BE KIND

  3. #108
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    Default Re: Ciao

    Ticketing... for what charge? Loitering?
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  4. #109
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    Default Re: Ciao

    Quote Originally Posted by epoxyboy View Post
    Australians, according to the only article I found that mentioned a nationality - so you Americans are of the hook for this one .

    Pete
    many years ago on a visit to budapest a drunen friend of stripped down and jumped into the danube
    we all laughed drunkenly
    a few nearby carp dappers began muttering disapprovingly
    through the impenetrable magyar came clear one word
    'australians!"

    lol
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  5. #110
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    Default Re: Ciao

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Ticketing... for what charge? Loitering?
    lmgtfy

    fines of between €50 ($58) and €500 ($588) for those sitting or lying on the ground.

    Officials have called this behavior by tourists “boorish.”

    Sitting is banned on the steps of monuments as well as around St. Mark’s square in the city.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  6. #111
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    Default Re: Ciao

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    I think you’ve misunderstood me. A society must be run on the rule of law. But a society also relies on unreasonable laws being broken by those who think them so, and are willing to face the consequences. If there is a drone in the air buzzing my bikini clad wife, I’m taking it down, and will fight the charges.

    Being willing to face the consequences is the big thing. Laws, when broken, must be enforced, and if unjust must be challenged
    no, i agree completely with this. i am talking about the incompleteness of law.

    one might say that the law is the map, not the territory. the law doesn't describe reality, it only proscribes certain acts or behaviors. has little if anything to do with what one ought to do. and it can never describe the detail of any single human interaction, let alone all human interactions.

    my argument is that we denude ourselves by defining right and wrong only by what is legal/illegal. this is a very modern notion, and it is corroding human society. society frankly relies on the sum of human interactions--not letter of law--to drive sociable, acceptable behavior.

    the trouble i see is leaning more heavily each time on legal technicalities, which, of course, will always represent an incomplete proscription and be most easily manipulated by the least scrupulous. we lean on the law, and strip moral value from behaviors that remain neccessarily undefined by law.

    we have every right to look down on a behavior that is not illegal, whether by loophole, technicality, or incompleteness. to enforce, through social interaction, sociable behavior, and to ostracize those whose behavior is self-centered and anti-social.

    i would argue too, that our interpretation of the letter of law, as it applies to any given case--through a jury trial, for example-- itself can be colored by moral judgment. there is little reason for a trial by humans, otherwise.

    what society do we want to live in? a society ruled by "whatever you can technically get away with" or "whatever serves the public good"?

    do you think joe threatening you with physical violence in conversation should be ignored, just because there is no law or enforcement to stop him? or would it be better if the group stepped on his metaphorical neck to deliver the message, "this is not acceptable"? i would personally like to see his alleged friends step up to banish him from polite conversation on your(our) behalf, until he atones and apologizes and at least pretends to be a social animal.

    but we are rotten with amoral technicalities most of the way through at this point. so good luck with that.

  7. #112
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    Default Re: Ciao

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    no, i agree completely with this. i am talking about the incompleteness of law.

    one might say that the law is the map, not the territory. the law doesn't describe reality, it only proscribes certain acts or behaviors. has little if anything to do with what one ought to do. and it can never describe the detail of any single human interaction, let alone all human interactions.

    my argument is that we denude ourselves by defining right and wrong only by what is legal/illegal. this is a very modern notion, and it is corroding human society. society frankly relies on the sum of human interactions--not letter of law--to drive sociable, acceptable behavior.

    the trouble i see is leaning more heavily each time on legal technicalities, which, of course, will always represent an incomplete proscription and be most easily manipulated by the least scrupulous. we lean on the law, and strip moral value from behaviors that remain neccessarily undefined by law.

    we have every right to look down on a behavior that is not illegal, whether by loophole, technicality, or incompleteness. to enforce, through social interaction, sociable behavior, and to ostracize those whose behavior is self-centered and anti-social.

    i would argue too, that our interpretation of the letter of law, as it applies to any given case--through a jury trial, for example-- itself can be colored by moral judgment. there is little reason for a trial by humans, otherwise.

    what society do we want to live in? a society ruled by "whatever you can technically get away with" or "whatever serves the public good"?

    do you think joe threatening you with physical violence in conversation should be ignored, just because there is no law or enforcement to stop him? or would it be better if the group stepped on his metaphorical neck to deliver the message, "this is not acceptable"? i would personally like to see his alleged friends step up to banish him from polite conversation on your(our) behalf, until he atones and apologizes and at least pretends to be a social animal.

    but we are rotten with amoral technicalities most of the way through at this point. so good luck with that.
    A thoughtful post which deserves more time than I can give it right now. But I’ll return to it, or perhaps respond by PM so as not to derail

  8. #113
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    Default Re: Ciao

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    A thoughtful post which deserves more time than I can give it right now. But I’ll return to it, or perhaps respond by PM so as not to derail
    derail what? joe doesn't own the column of air around himself, either.

    naw, i get it. you are thinking of the group, and how some are disoriented by thread drift, or made uncomfortable by conflict.

    and you are correct to do so. that is, in fact, my point in riding joe over his drone use. think about how your behavior effects others, and if it is negative, take correction, and give way gracefully. if you find yourself telling somebody "politely" to "pound sand", if you find yourself threatening to "unleash the monster" to avenge your p.o.s. bit of plastic, make sure you are right. not legally. morally. "right" in the ways that matter.

  9. #114
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    Default Re: Ciao

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post


    do you think joe threatening you with physical violence in conversation should be ignored, just because there is no law or enforcement to stop him? or would it be better if the group stepped on his metaphorical neck to deliver the message, "this is not acceptable"? i would personally like to see his alleged friends step up to banish him from polite conversation on your(our) behalf, until he atones and apologizes and at least pretends to be a social animal.


    but we are rotten with amoral technicalities most of the way through at this point. so good luck with that.


    WOW, what a weird segue this thread has gone through from a light hearted “Ciao” postcardfrom Italy to all this animosity over a single drone video.


    LW let us all be clear, I was not the first person to bring the threat of violence into this thread. That honor goes to Decourcy. He was the one that threatened violence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    So I’ll bring my tennis racket.
    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    A society must be run on the rule of law. But a society also relies on unreasonable laws being broken by those who think them so, and are willing to face the consequences. If there is a drone in the air buzzing my bikini clad wife, I’m taking it down, and will fight the charges.
    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post

    Being willing to face the consequences is the big thing. Laws, when broken, must be enforced, and if unjust must be challenged

    Simply because you agree with Decourcy and feel that drones are an abomination and he has all the right in the world to break the law and destroy someone’s personal property, even if that person is operating that personal property with full compliance and, within the bounds of the law. Yet defending that personal property is wrong ?


    So lets take the evil “Drone” out of the conversation. Let’s say Decourcy has some crazy hatred for, I don’t no lets say Tesla’s. He has this crazy notion that all Teslas are destroying the world by mining raw materials. So he takes it upon himself to take a baseball bat to every Tesla he sees. Even though the car is registered, and driven responsibly by a licensed driver and obeys all traffic laws he feels in his personal heart that “unreasonable laws being broken by those who think them so, and are willing to face the consequences.” You would condone that act of violence ?


    We are a WORLD of laws, the “Adult” way to deal with an issue with any laws or regulations that you feel is wrong is to vote, or participate in intelligent ways to reverse the laws that you feel are unjust. Promoting violent destruction because you “FEEL” you have the right because YOU personally feel such and such law is unjust is always a way to escalate the violence on both sides.


    Instead why don’t you and Decourcy watch this video from a drone pilot in Decourcy native country of Canada that I watch regularly and who’s informative and the reason I went and got my part 107 drone license and operate my drone in a responsible and legal manner




    https://youtu.be/ABhmcuy7gFg

    Last edited by Joe (SoCal); 08-20-2022 at 09:01 PM.
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  10. #115
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    Default Re: Ciao

    Drive your Tesla on my lawn and I’ll certainly take a baseball bat to it. Drive it onto the grass of a public park and I’d do the same. Drive it on a public road and you’re good to go.
    Public usage rules for air have not caught up to technology. So you use that hole to use public space as if it’s your private space.

  11. #116
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    Default Re: Ciao

    While I’m up getting ready to pack and go back up to Florence I would like to add.

    Earlier in this thread someone mentioned Stanly Tucci, have I mentioned I love him Anyway I mentioned watching his CNN series on Italy and watched all the episodes before our trip to Italy. Not only is Tucci a skilled host and a wonderful narrator of the series, the CNN production of the series was top notch and that included some exceptional drone shots. As a mater of fact watching that series before I came made me want to bring my drone. It also made me look up and register with the Italian version of the FAA and make sure to read up and follow the laws regarding drones in Italy so I could be a responsible drone pilot.

    Why is it accepted and almost unnoticed simply because it fits in the the story narrative of a TV show, yet when I do it I get threatened with all sorts of violence to my personal property ?

    Case in Point - look at the loverly drone shots taken in Tuscany in the show. No one would bat an eye and some wont even notice that there were so many drone shots in this short introduction.



    https://youtu.be/SPtGyS4KorU
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  12. #117
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    Default Re: Ciao

    Damn L.W.
    I think I might actually like having a beer with you. After all the back and forth between us, that’s kind of making my head spin.

  13. #118
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    see, decourcy, this is what is wrong with the attitude that everything we do is justifiable or not only as described by letter of law.

    and that is the society we live in. an american president says that not paying taxes "means i'm smart". an entitled tourist feels that given a hole in the law, or a purchased permit, he has more ownership of the column of air over your head than you do.

    and the selfish shall inherit the earth.


    One could say its selfish to deny fellow humans the column air over ones head, even when one is not using it.
    Eh?




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  14. #119
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    Default Re: Ciao

    I can’t wait to get back to Florence and edit the epic drone footage I shot in Rome
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  15. #120
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    Default Re: Ciao

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    Drive your Tesla on my lawn and I’ll certainly take a baseball bat to it. Drive it onto the grass of a public park and I’d do the same. Drive it on a public road and you’re good to go.
    Public usage rules for air have not caught up to technology. So you use that hole to use public space as if it’s your private space.
    Again I’m driving my Tesla legally on public roads and following the law and all the rules therein. Sadly you do not own the sky above your head that is settled law. Do commercial or private airplanes have to avoid flying over residential developments. Your foolishness is becoming more and more evident
    Last edited by Joe (SoCal); 08-20-2022 at 11:39 PM.
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  16. #121
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    Default Re: Ciao

    If I had travelled 1000's of miles to look at ancient beautiful architecture for the first time I would NOT want my experience of it to one where tourists are flying drones around it. Legal or not, it's anti-social and DOES impact my right to have my experience my way. Not that Joe gives a f8ck about me, you or anyone else.

    and Joe, it's 'grazie', not 'gratzie'.


  17. #122
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    Default Re: Ciao

    I love how a bunch of people gleefully told Joe he would get in trouble for his drone video, and then couldn't accept that they were wrong...

    You all need to get out more. Drones are everywhere in crowded tourist spots in Europe. You hardly notice them unless you look for them. These places are not exactly quiet and private to begin with.

  18. #123
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    I find them intrusive and annoying, but my feelings are not protected legally. For that I rely fruitlessly on the morality of others.

  19. #124
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    I find cars way more intrusive and annoying, but they are allowed almost everywhere. Way noisier than drones, releasing toxic fumes, and they will run you over if you get in their way.

    Thankfully some of those European cities that allow drones are banning cars from more and more streets.

  20. #125
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    Default Re: Ciao

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    I find cars way more intrusive and annoying, but they are allowed almost everywhere. Way noisier than drones, releasing toxic fumes, and they will run you over if you get in their way.

    Thankfully some of those European cities that allow drones are banning cars from more and more streets.
    Exactly, we rode eBikes everywhere around Rome we just did 30 miles this morning and then parked them at the train station what a great way to enjoy the city. I mounted my GoPro on the front basket of Renee’s and have so much content to edit when we get back to Firenze.

    591BCCEC-D366-44A9-BE8F-4419DF6859AD.jpg
    Last edited by Joe (SoCal); 08-21-2022 at 09:53 AM.
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  21. #126
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    Default Re: Ciao

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    I love how a bunch of people gleefully told Joe he would get in trouble for his drone video, and then couldn't accept that they were wrong...

    You all need to get out more. Drones are everywhere in crowded tourist spots in Europe. You hardly notice them unless you look for them. These places are not exactly quiet and private to begin with.
    who are you talking about? rumars was the only one who felt certain that the drone footage joe posted was evidence of illegal behavior. and when joe claimed proper legal permit, rumars bowed out.

    as for what you find more or less obtrusive, your judgment is suspect.


    Quote Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal) View Post
    ...if the cops don’t come soon enough you might just experience the Bronx Joe unleashed from his cage...
    unobtrusive, eh. you hardly notice it.

    so trivial you simply slide right over it on your way to inventing "a bunch of people...who can't accept that they are wrong".

    is this the society you want, where the self-centered and motivated ego denies that one has any claim unless it is defined legally, then threatens physical violence against a person for destruction of a ****ing plastic toy.

    because, at the end of the day, he will lean on the law, and mostly the incompleteness of it, until it no longer serves him. which, in my observation of the type, will happen on a daily basis, any time he is certain that he will not be punished.

    we are creating a world that is the most perfect environment for the sociopath. drone etiquette is evolving, and not in the way i would like to see it go. this is just one field of many in which we are surrendering on technicalities to those most willing to ignore the spirit of society, to those least respectful of the full and equal personhood of others.

  22. #127
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    Default Re: Ciao

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    One could say its selfish to deny fellow humans the column air over ones head, even when one is not using it.
    Eh?
    no.

  23. #128
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    Default Re: Ciao

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    So I’ll bring my tennis racket.
    it's funny. if decourcy can destroy a drone with a tennis racket, it is unlikely that the operator is within the letter of the law, right?

    but, "i'll have you arrested for destruction of property kind simple" and, if the law doesn't provide satisfaction, "i'll uncage the monster" and beat you senseless over my p.o.s. toy.

  24. #129
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    Default Re: Ciao

    Joe has a 400$ knife in his pocket, we're all good.

  25. #130
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    Default Re: Ciao

    And a pencil...

  26. #131
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    Default Re: Ciao

    There was a case in Vancouver recently where a shallow and salmon bearing River popular with anglers had a jet boat (belonging to a guide) roar up and down it several times at high speed. One of the anglers threw a rock at the boat, hitting it, and the driver ran it up on the shore, jumped out and beat up the fisherman.
    Now, it wasn’t illegal for that boat to be there because no-one had thought it would be required to tell operators not to run their boats over gravel spawning beds, and getting into that river with a boat was no easy thing. But the operator obviously thought “since there’s no law I’m fine”.
    The fisherman expressed his frustration by throwing the rock, but society, fishermen and other jetboat operators have judged the jet boat driver to be in the wrong. Police are looking for him.

  27. #132
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    Default Re: Ciao

    I wish this thread would just get back to the beautiful Italian scenery....
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.
    Skiing is the next best thing to having wings.

  28. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal) View Post
    Exactly, we rode eBikes everywhere around Rome we just did 30 miles this morning and then parked them at the train station what a great way to enjoy the city. I mounted my GoPro on the front basket of Renee’s and have so much content to edit when we get back to Firenze. 591BCCEC-D366-44A9-BE8F-4419DF6859AD.jpg
    Looks good Joe.

  29. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    I wish this thread would just get back to the beautiful Italian scenery....
    Grumpy old guys got their RDA of grumpiness to fill.

  30. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    I wish this thread would just get back to the beautiful Italian scenery....
    At your service

    Arrivederci Roma 
    This is my second favorite photo along with the nun the little boy is caught in the shaft of light at the bottom of the Spanish steps

    88601B59-3B03-4622-9A61-34A37EB43522.jpg

    The view from the top of the Spanish steps

    8EAF833C-7944-47F8-90C0-CCFA0C35DE8B.jpg

    And a Panorama

    01055658-2D9E-46DD-9897-EF51DB6BE82B.jpg

    Renee at the bottom of the steps

    8F100323-DC9A-4F2B-B038-C318DB13971E.jpg

    And of course no photo thread would be complete without a shot of yours truly. Having breakfast at the Twin Churches

    B5958C29-44C9-488E-8785-0CBC9EDFCD9A.jpg


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  31. #136
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    Default Re: Ciao

    cant you make that $1000 phone take colour photographs??!
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  32. #137
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    Default Re: Ciao

    very much enjoying this thread
    including the moralizing sidebars
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Ciao

    This was our view while having breakfast of the Two Churches and the Egyptian obelisk

    C2B89967-AC6B-4D40-A0E2-9EBF3B92C01C.jpg

    A3BE6711-C554-440F-9F7F-B7E66985A6B7.jpg

    Then of course we went to the Vatican and I had to get my dad a silver and onyx rosary beads

    10980A89-1A45-49D3-B769-58AB952EE49E.jpg

    81623F7D-B1AE-4024-B3E2-BD7AAFB80AEA.jpg

    Now we are back in Florence. Tuesday we will take a Umog Chianti Safari of Tuscan Villas, cheese wine and lunch. Then hang in Florence a bit more and do some shopping then rent a car and drive to Sienna, because trains and public transit is not really an option, then back to Florence.
    Last edited by Joe (SoCal); 08-21-2022 at 09:52 AM.
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  34. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    cant you make that $1000 phone take colour photographs??!
    I know tight
    I’m really enjoying the B&W photos and of course I can click a button and they turn back in to vivid color anytime
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  35. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    Looks good Joe.
    Lee I got to say they are super fun, we see so many of them in SoCal and Renee and I are always calling them cheaters, but OMG are they fun and now I get it. We did miles and miles and on the hills I got my heart rate up to 150 so you do get some exercise. If we didn’t already have vespas I would seriously consider one.

    They have a bunch of different competing eBikes and scooters available for anyone, you simply download the apps connect to your credit card and scan the barcode and off you go when you get to a place you just disconnect take a photo and the next person jumps on. We did like 30 miles today. We just noticed they have them here in Florence so we are probably going to use them here.
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