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Thread: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

  1. #1
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    Default For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    Think again:

    https://www.economist.com/united-sta...ce=parsely-api


    This column is going to be speculative, maybe annoyingly so. For once, though, speculating how bad things might become is responsible, rather than frivolous. Mr Trump has again and again broken through the boundaries of the American political imagination.

    Mr Trump was already expected to run for a second term as president. He seems certain to do so now. Imagine that the raid yields evidence of criminality, leading to his indictment. Nothing in the former president’s history would suggest that, out of some sense of propriety, let alone shame, he would then suspend his campaign. Instead, he would have even greater reason to foment distrust and even hatred of the American legal system, as well as the administration of President Joe Biden.

    Even a speedy trial and conviction would be less likely to bar a Trump candidacy than to start more rounds of litigation. The constitution, which spells out the qualifications for serving as president, is silent on the question of a criminal record. This is a hypothetical scenario, but not a far-fetched one: America faces the possibility of an indicted or convicted candidate winning a presidential election while campaigning against the rule of law. Or, maybe worse, losing that election. You do not need to rely on speculation to picture what that would look like.

    Yet maybe the raid will yield such damning evidence that even the Republican legislators who are threatening to investigate Mr Garland will instead repudiate Mr Trump at last. Or maybe one of the many other lines of inquiry into Mr Trump’s doings, or their cumulative weight, will have that effect. Mr Trump is under investigation in Georgia and New York. The raid appears to stem from an investigation into how he handled classified information; the Justice Department is conducting a separate investigation into his flailing to cling to office.


    Do not hold your breath. Lawmakers who crawled back to Mr Trump after the January 6th insurrection are not likely to abandon him over a crime like making off with classified documents, particularly given a president’s vast power to declassify information. And Mr Trump, who studied under the ruthless red-baiting attorney Roy Cohn, has shown how slippery he can be. Michael Cohen, another former lawyer to Mr Trump, testified to Congress that he acted “like a mobster”, not giving direct orders that might implicate him but speaking “in a code”. The president who had the foresight to bar the White House photographer from his presence on January 6th, and leave no trail of telephone calls that day, seems unlikely to have left incriminating evidence lying around Mar-a-Lago. For a man so zealous in pursuit of his self-interest, that would be an astonishing lapse.

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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    It’s as if some want to keep this **** show alive. As though it serves a purpose. And it does. For the people who employ our legislators.

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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    Unless a majority of the GOP comes to it's collective senses, we are in for a very bumpy ride between now and 2024.
    The tone seems to be subtly shifting but not enough that there are any Republicans openly calling for TFG to be held to account.
    I think McConnel is waiting for some real evidence of a crime to come to light so he can publicly repudiate TFG and finally get him out of the way.

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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    'The law' sure seems to be skewed in favor of the rich and powerful. The injustice of it all lies in the application of the law.....
    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. Leonardo da Vinci.

    If war is the answer........... it must be a profoundly stupid question.

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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    What a bullish!t article. It wasn’t a raid. It was a search for evidence. They don’t call it a raid warrant. Law enforcement were serving a legitimate search warrant. Articles like this are part of the problem.

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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    eta: exactly, steven

    opinion piece. *shrug*. we have bilge rats writing better stuff.

    yeah, these are dangerous times. we are running the risk of trump or similar being elected president for life. no **** sherlock.

    calling it a "raid" is a tell, as far as i'm concerned. but hey, your concerns are duly noted.

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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    Quote Originally Posted by bluedog225 View Post
    It’s as if some want to keep this **** show alive. As though it serves a purpose. And it does. For the people who employ our legislators.
    i don't know what this means. do you think an ex president should have secret nuclear documents in storage at his hotel. if not, what should be done about it.

    this **** show is of trump's making. trump is of the republican party's making. the republican party is of fox news and rush limbaugh's making. it won't be over until everybody is dead.

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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    Posting any article that uses terms like, "raid", "breaking into", or "siege" upon the individuals residence or place of work under the authority of a legally issued warrant is either wittingly or unwittingly helping to erode the rule of law.

    When the long established nomenclature relating to the exercise of widely accepted legal norms and the mechanics of law enforcement take a turn into such biased language, we've definitely ventured out past the street lights and are pretty far off the reservation, much to our collective diminishment.

    Woe to such a society, if we are even able to call ourselves a society any longer.
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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBauer View Post
    What a bullish!t article. It wasn’t a raid.
    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    calling it a "raid" is a tell, as far as i'm concerned.
    Sure. When faced with a reality you don't like, try to distract by focusing on the language.

    Try actually reading the article. It supports the FBI, but warns that the consequences may be very bad:

    The raid on Mar-a-Lago may have been necessary to serve justice. A prosecution may eventually prove necessary as well. The hope is that the rule of law has weight enough to survive the contest.





    Oh, but they used the R word, so I stopped reading...

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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    i get the print version of the economist george. i read it on the can.

    the writing of this particular op-ed is just lame.

    thanks for the "warning".

    yuh, we know.

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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin T View Post
    Posting any article that uses terms like, "raid", "breaking into", or "siege" upon the individuals residence or place of work under the authority of a legally issued warrant is either wittingly or unwittingly helping to erode the rule of law.

    When the long established nomenclature relating to the exercise of widely accepted legal norms and the mechanics of law enforcement take a turn into such biased language, we've definitely ventured out past the street lights and are pretty far off the reservation, much to our collective diminishment.

    Woe to such a society, if we are even able to call ourselves a society any longer.
    Agree. All in all, it reads as a bit of apologia, and fosters a nihilistic 'we're doomed' attitude. To which I say, 'claptrap'. No matter what the incipient fallout, the rule of law must be followed and enforced. No good will come of sheering off out of fear. I hope & assume that those in power are cognizant of the potential dangers and making plans to respond to them.

    But the article does raise some points. Like how this development is likely to nudge tRump further toward running again... if he was having any doubts. Because he likely sees one way to avoid prosecution is to be ensconced in office. And how one can't assume 'normal' behavior will be forthcoming from tRump... and one must broaden one's planning accordingly.
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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    So out of fear of offending people, they should have just left ultra sensitive documents in a swimming pool storage room?

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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    It means all the histrionics about trump shifts focus from those who are running the country for their benefit.

    It’s pretty simple. Hire legislators to do what you tell them. Buy media companies to get people to focus on other stuff. Get (stay) rich.

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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    Quote Originally Posted by bluedog225 View Post
    It means all the histrionics about trump shifts focus from those who are running the country for their benefit.

    It’s pretty simple. Hire legislators to do what you tell them. Buy media companies to get people to focus on other stuff. Get (stay) rich.
    nice to see you retreating to the cynicism of the ex-trump voter in avoidance mode.

    i mean, i assume you won't vote for him again. you'll just stay home. we can only hope.

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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    It would be inconvenient (for some) if we focused on health care, the environment, education, crime, etc.

    too cynical? Or just not distracted by the show? I don’t watch “professional” wrestling either. Same same.

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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    rigght.

    "nothing to see here folks, move along. "

    you've been above the fray all along, eh dawg.

    i recall the deep red reaction on jan 7 among those i know best. rainbows and butterflies, "can't we all just get along?"

    nope, not just yet.

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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    Quote Originally Posted by ron ll View Post
    So out of fear of offending people, they should have just left ultra sensitive documents in a swimming pool storage room?
    That seems to be the main thrust of the article.
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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    Meh . . . Yeah, that could possibly happen. Or maybe not. Predicting the future is hard, and prophecies of doom are good at attracting our attention.

    One applicable law, emphasis added. Source.

    18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally

    (a)Whoever willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, or destroys, or attempts to do so, or, with intent to do so takes and carries away any record, proceeding, map, book, paper, document, or other thing, filed or deposited with any clerk or officer of any court of the United States, or in any public office, or with any judicial or public officer of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

    (b)Whoever, having the custody of any such record, proceeding, map, book, document, paper, or other thing, willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys the same, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both; and shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States. As used in this subsection, the term “office” does not include the office held by any person as a retired officer of the Armed Forces of the United States.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 08-15-2022 at 10:22 AM.
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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    When Trump's next excuse is "The dog ate my homework!!" will MAGA go along with that one? Oh yes, most probably.
    "So we beat on, paddleboats against the wake of a neighbor’s jet ski, born back ceaselessly into the past." The Great Lakes Gatsby

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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    The True Believers will claim the dogsh!t is caviar forever, The ones around the edges, OTOH, appear to have been peeling away for some time. If a plausible RW alternative to Trump reaches the necessary level of prominence, there may be a big switch. I think Ron DeSantis would love to be that alternative.
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    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    What about those cheering for Thor in the Marvel comic series?

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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    Got to wonder what the author of the OP ED thinks is appropriate storage for classified documents.
    Are steel fining cabinets locked shut by combination code padlocks unnecessary, totally OTT?
    They as sure as hell were a requirement in our office.

    Edited to add, I am assuming that your POTUS is required to sign your Official Secrets Act or whatever you call it?
    A bit of Googlefu suggests that Skidmark may have transgressed this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarr...l_Security_Act
    Last edited by Peerie Maa; 08-15-2022 at 10:30 AM.
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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    Sam Donaldson says the Mar-a Largo episode will likely be the case that ends up with Trump in an orange jumpsuit. He tells about how following all the serious crimes Al Capone committed, it was tax evasion that put him in jail.

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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    If Trump skates, I'd find it hard to convict anyone of anything.

    That said, he may not skate. He's got legal problems on several fronts. I wonder how successful his fundraising off of them is. That might be a good way of discerning how much support he may have lost.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin T View Post
    Posting any article that uses terms like, "raid", "breaking into", or "siege" upon the individuals residence or place of work under the authority of a legally issued warrant is either wittingly or unwittingly helping to erode the rule of law.

    When the long established nomenclature relating to the exercise of widely accepted legal norms and the mechanics of law enforcement take a turn into such biased language, we've definitely ventured out past the street lights and are pretty far off the reservation, much to our collective diminishment.

    Woe to such a society, if we are even able to call ourselves a society any longer.
    Yep.

    There is no dispute that the words in quotes are the words of the Trump faction. That is a fact.

    That the words actually describe the facts is highly disputable. So if the quote marks are left off in the article, the article is promoting the Trump faction. Better not to use them then to hide behind quotation marks. Without the quotation marks, they are your words.

    Another case where sloppy use of language is actually dangerous. When you call a legal search a "raid", "breaking into", or "siege", you attack society. You are responsible for the results. You are bringing about violence.

    The historian H.G. Koenigsberger (who until his retirement in 1984 was Professor of History at King's College, University of London) wrote that the [St. Bartholomew's Day] Massacre was deeply disturbing because "it was Christians massacring other Christians who were not foreign enemies but their neighbours with which they and their forebears had lived in a Christian community, and under the same ruler, for a thousand years". He concludes that the historical importance of the Massacre "lies not so much in the appalling tragedies involved as their demonstration of the power of sectarian passion to break down the barriers of civilisation, community and accepted morality".

    -- wikipedia, St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre
    Catholics slaughtered Protestants, including women and children. It wasn't just the one massacre. 12 major cities of France. Inquisitions and forced conversions. The Catholic rulers of France, the Catholic emissaries to the court, the Pope, etc., all denied inciting it but loudly cheered it after the fact. "We would have incited it had we thought of it! But really, we didn't! And you can't prove it! Anything you say is biased because you are anti-Catholic. And nothing biased can be true!" SOS.

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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    Catholics have been at it for a long time...

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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    this is a dumb thread
    i expect better from the bilge's last erudite right wing troll
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    Describing George. as an 'erudite right wing troll' is downright bizarre. (Erudite, yes.) Or did you mean Osborne?
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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Catholics have been at it for a long time...
    Often with unintended consequences. The Popes Fatwa against Q E 1 resulted in 220 years of catholic oppression and disenfranchisement in England and Ireland.
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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    "On this account I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ's heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends. I say this to those who are present, it meant also for those who are absent. Moreover, Christ commands it.

    All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested.
    O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion!
    Let those who have been accustomed unjustly to wage private warfare against the faithful now go against the infidels and end with victory this war which should have been begun long ago."

    Pope Urban II
    'Kill the infidels'
    November 27, 1095



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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    this is a dumb thread
    i expect better from the bilge's last erudite right wing troll
    Because people are upset about calling it a raid?

    Get over it, peoples, everyone is calling it a raid. I for one wish it had been one, with doors kicked down and Trump handcuffed in his underwear. But there are larger considerations.

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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    Plus, the ultimate authority states:

    A police raid is an unexpected visit by police or other law-enforcement officers with the aim of using the element of surprise in order to seize evidence or arrest suspects believed to be likely to hide evidence, resist arrest, be politically sensitive, or simply be elsewhere during the day.
    Fits like a glove. From, of course,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_raid

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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    George, who is cheering the news of the search and seizure of top secret materials? It’s good they got it after TFG’s history of undermining numerous institutions and accepted practices but cheering this would be like cheering that a serial rapists other victims were discovered.

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    Default

    Few here have had a warrant served on them, apparently. Colloquially, that is a raid.




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    Default Re: For all who are cheering the Mar-a-Lago raid

    Poor Donald, he was raided.

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