Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 36 to 63 of 63

Thread: Repairing keel separation

  1. #36
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    59,293

    Default Re: Repairing keel separation

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Madison View Post
    Bummer that the lower gudgeon bolt is right in a joint, but I wouldn't sweat it too much unless that joint gets progressively worse. The timber is long and well anchored to the boat so strength should be adequate.
    The straps are acting as not very efficient fish plates, so it could be worse.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  2. #37
    Join Date
    Aug 2021
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    107

    Default Re: Repairing keel separation

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    No, fish plates are let into rebates on the side of the timber, spanning the joint. They can be straight straps, or butterfly with effectively a dovetail on each side of the joint. One on each side, secured with peened/riveted through fastenings.
    Drifts are basically big nails, made from round bar, pointed and driven into a tight blind hole.
    Rough sketch of fish plate and drift
    Attachment 116894
    Thanks the graphic helps a lot..though looks more like a cheese plate :P Is there a reason to go for a drift VS a lag bolt?

  3. #38
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    59,293

    Default Re: Repairing keel separation

    Quote Originally Posted by skerry View Post
    Thanks the graphic helps a lot..though looks more like a cheese plate :P Is there a reason to go for a drift VS a lag bolt?
    Drifts are cheaper, only require one diameter hole, not three (pilot for the threads, bore for the shank, and counterbore for the box spanner driving it home), and can just be driven home with hammer and a punch to set it below the surface.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  4. #39
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Norwalk CT
    Posts
    2,790

    Default Re: Repairing keel separation

    Nick's got the plan. A bronze drift or two lubed with some epoxy and driven into the timbers. Id be satisfied with slathering a lot of paint in the joint for protection. Glue is superfluous with a drift or two in place.

    A log bolt would work but as Nick says its more work and you'll be introducing a new metal below the waterline which I'd avoid even if its encapsulated in epoxy.

  5. #40
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound/summer Eastern carib./winter
    Posts
    22,207

    Default Re: Repairing keel separation

    fish plates are still a caveman repair on a stable epoxy hull
    These 3 purpleheart chunks will continue to swell and contract ,or TRY to.
    What stops real cracks from forming, not just seams opening a bit, at the bolt holes of the plate, or the ends of the relief where the plate is let in ?
    is it just brute force ? Often here ,with boat repair there is great concern of a boat "tearing itself apart" from swelling and shrinking . especially when COMBINING two boatbuilding methods, (gluing together old carvel boats ,ie).
    Why is this piled up slab keel not leaking into the inside through the seam lengthways? Does she need or HAVE a stopwater?
    This fishplate is something one expects to see retrofitterd to an 80 yo , 80 ton fishing boat .
    Last edited by wizbang 13; 08-19-2022 at 08:55 AM.

  6. #41
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    59,293

    Default Re: Repairing keel separation

    So Bruce, are you recommending doing nothing, and living with the failed glue line?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  7. #42
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound/summer Eastern carib./winter
    Posts
    22,207

    Default Re: Repairing keel separation

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    So Bruce, are you recommending doing nothing, and living with the failed glue line?
    No , My rec is #17 and #19. Transform the slab keel into a laminated one by retro fitting (cutting) kerfs and epoxying them.
    Modernize the keel to match the hull
    ....which I could have done twice by now.
    Last edited by wizbang 13; 08-19-2022 at 09:56 AM.

  8. #43
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    59,293

    Default Re: Repairing keel separation

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    No , My rec is #17 and #19. Transform the slab keel into a laminated one by retro fitting (cutting) kerfs and epoxying them.
    Modernize the keel to match the hull
    ....which I could have done twice by now.
    Glue has already failed once. Who knows what contamination is in there to make it fail again.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  9. #44
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound/summer Eastern carib./winter
    Posts
    22,207

    Default Re: Repairing keel separation

    its not the glue that failed Nick , it is the construction technique combined with poor gluing technique. lots of epoxy fails....that is not a reason to throw it away
    5 minutes after cutting new kerfs, I know exactly how much contamination is in there. zero.
    ( could have fixed it three times by now)

  10. #45
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    PNW
    Posts
    808

    Default Re: Repairing keel separation

    I had a motor mount issue where I needed to bond 60 durometer neoprene to a carbon-something composite project. I was not having good results till I went down the surface energy rabbit hole. Can't explain it in layman's language but the results paid off.
    If you decide to reconsider a repair using epoxy, I suggest you educate yourself, it makes ALL the difference.
    ​​♦ During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act
    ♦ The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it
    ♦ If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear
    ♦ George Orwell

  11. #46
    Join Date
    Aug 2021
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    107

    Default Re: Repairing keel separation

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    its not the glue that failed Nick , it is the construction technique combined with poor gluing technique. lots of epoxy fails....that is not a reason to throw it away
    5 minutes after cutting new kerfs, I know exactly how much contamination is in there. zero.
    ( could have fixed it three times by now)
    Apologies for my slowness, my experience includes building a skerry and some random volunteer work at the CWB. I just want to make sure I'm making the right fix and it will take me 7x as long as you to make it since I've never done it before and don't want to destroy my new boat :P

  12. #47
    Join Date
    Aug 2021
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    107

    Default Re: Repairing keel separation

    Upside is I got the bilge sanded and covered in bilge coat so Im happy to be making progress. Working on varnish after I get the last coat on and then Ill be pulling that rudder off.

  13. #48
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wongawallan Oz
    Posts
    17,022

    Default Re: Repairing keel separation

    Skerry - you would have noticed by now that the internet has an abundance of opinions and many of them disagree, making it a challenge to follow anyones particular advice. So whatever you do it will have to be your own decision based on your specific circumstances and you will need to live with it......OR be able to reverse/change it after the fact.

    For what it’s worth (and again it is just an opinion and an option) I’d be starting with trying one of the simplest options and one that can be easily reversed if it doesn’t work the way you want.

    Given that your concern seemed to be fresh water getting into the join/crack and causing rot, I’d be starting with the option of a reasonable mastic sealing the join and (if you feel the need for greater structural integrity) a lag bolt up through the join as far in from the end as you can comfortably drill one in.

    I gather purple heart is a reasonably stable timber (we don’t have it in Australia) but it will still come and go - i.e. it will move with moisture and drying- and a flexible mastic would allow it to do so in that same join rather than causing stress and/or further damage elsewhere if it were more solidly glued. Basically an expansion joint.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  14. #49
    Join Date
    Aug 2021
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    107

    Default Re: Repairing keel separation

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    Skerry - you would have noticed by now that the internet has an abundance of opinions and many of them disagree, making it a challenge to follow anyones particular advice. So whatever you do it will have to be your own decision based on your specific circumstances and you will need to live with it......OR be able to reverse/change it after the fact.

    For what it’s worth (and again it is just an opinion and an option) I’d be starting with trying one of the simplest options and one that can be easily reversed if it doesn’t work the way you want.

    Given that your concern seemed to be fresh water getting into the join/crack and causing rot, I’d be starting with the option of a reasonable mastic sealing the join and (if you feel the need for greater structural integrity) a lag bolt up through the join as far in from the end as you can comfortably drill one in.

    I gather purple heart is a reasonably stable timber (we don’t have it in Australia) but it will still come and go - i.e. it will move with moisture and drying- and a flexible mastic would allow it to do so in that same join rather than causing stress and/or further damage elsewhere if it were more solidly glued. Basically an expansion joint.
    Haha yeah, whatever fix I do I'm guessing the next owner is gonna ask what the heck was I thinking :P. I've got a few weeks till I start on it, time is rare with a 2 and 4 year old.

  15. #50
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound/summer Eastern carib./winter
    Posts
    22,207

    Default Re: Repairing keel separation

    Quote Originally Posted by skerry View Post
    Apologies for my slowness, my experience includes building a skerry and some random volunteer work at the CWB. I just want to make sure I'm making the right fix and it will take me 7x as long as you to make it since I've never done it before and don't want to destroy my new boat :P
    I'm not dumping on you for going slowly and carefully.
    I do things differently here, in general. (faster)
    I learned boats from teachers and experience, not from books or theory.
    The builder , and possibly the designer, f##ked up by making a traditional keel assembly ( I like to call caveman) and marrying it to a modern boat.
    ...not to mention using purpleheart for a keel.
    bruce

  16. #51
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Vancouver Island
    Posts
    2,389

    Default Re: Repairing keel separation

    On the hard for the last three years? It’s been hot here in the PNW; last summer we experienced some minor separation at the deck/cabin sides connection that we had not seen in the previous 14 years.
    Try to find the screw locations in that crack before driving in any drifts or lag bolts. My mastic of choice to fill that gap would be roof cement, Henrys makes a good product in your area. imho / Jim

  17. #52
    Join Date
    Aug 2021
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    107

    Default

    Ok so the bow appear to have signs of an issue also leaving me a bit worried

  18. #53
    Join Date
    Aug 2021
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    107

    Default


    There’s is a join here following the plans

  19. #54
    Join Date
    Aug 2021
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    107

    Default



    The purple heart block seems odd?

  20. #55
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wongawallan Oz
    Posts
    17,022

    Default Re: Repairing keel separation

    It’s wood mate, it’s going to move with variations on atmospheric moisture and temp’ no matter what you do, especially if it is out in the open. That photo looks pretty insignificant to be honest and unless it’s causing the boat to leak I really don’t think that you have that much to worry about, I doubt that it would be structural.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  21. #56
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    PNW
    Posts
    808

    Default Re: Repairing keel separation

    That strap has no reserve strength with all the sun damage it has suffered. Also find a shackle to fit the hook correctly.
    Forgive me but I spent my life in transportation and can't help myself when I see a dangerous situation.
    Carry on.
    ​​♦ During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act
    ♦ The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it
    ♦ If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear
    ♦ George Orwell

  22. #57
    Join Date
    Aug 2021
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    107

    Default

    Yeah it’s up there to get fixed, this a new to me boat I’m working on fixing up

  23. #58
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Guerilla Bay, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    579

    Default Re: Repairing keel separation

    As long as you put in a permanent fastening that crosses the current gap so that it holds the repair together permanently you will be fine - imo. That fastening can be in several different forms - the 'fish plate' looks to be one of the simplest. The skeg on my snapper boat is held together by threaded silicon bronze rod that I drilled & then turned into the timbers - hasn't disintegrated yet :-)

    Good Luck Neil

  24. #59
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    PNW
    Posts
    808

    Default Re: Repairing keel separation

    Got it!
    A simple sun cover on a winch strap can keep it alive for decades.
    ​​♦ During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act
    ♦ The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it
    ♦ If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear
    ♦ George Orwell

  25. #60
    Join Date
    Aug 2021
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    107

    Default Re: Repairing keel separation

    Good idea, my only goal was to get the boat home for repairs and some paint/varnish. I've got a shackle on order and a new winch strap with a cover so you can rest easy :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Autonomous View Post
    Got it!
    A simple sun cover on a winch strap can keep it alive for decades.

  26. #61
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound/summer Eastern carib./winter
    Posts
    22,207

    Default Re: Repairing keel separation


    the angle of the snap eye leverin on the caveman joint ain't a helpin nuttin
    if i wanted to crack that joint open,this geometry would be good

  27. #62
    Join Date
    Aug 2021
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    107

    Default Re: Repairing keel separation

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post

    the angle of the snap eye leverin on the caveman joint ain't a helpin nuttin
    if i wanted to crack that joint open,this geometry would be good
    Fair point, the owner had no shackle so I had to drive it home like this. Suppose those forces may have helped this along

  28. #63
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wongawallan Oz
    Posts
    17,022

    Default Re: Repairing keel separation

    Quote Originally Posted by skerry View Post
    Fair point, the owner had no shackle so I had to drive it home like this. Suppose those forces may have helped this along
    Honestly I don’t see how that could be possible - if it was up 10” and mounted on the piece if timber that has moved slightly I’d say yes, but where it is mounted now I cannot see how it can have any effect on the join above it.....
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •