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Thread: Trump Takes The Fifth.

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    Default Trump Takes The Fifth.

    Trump takes the Fifth

    The former president invoked his constitutional right against self-incrimination in a deposition with the office of New York Attorney General Tish James.

    Former President Donald Trump declined to answer questions on Wednesday during a deposition with the office of New York Attorney General Tish James, asserting his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination.
    Trump, who has long accused James of conducting a politically motivated probe into his family’s real estate business, said in a statement Wednesday that he had “absolutely no choice” but to take the Fifth during his under-oath interview with the attorney general’s office. James is leading an investigation into Trump Organization business practices, examining allegations that the former president’s company misstated asset values on financial documents.

    ----------------

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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.

    The best fifth. No one in the history of the taking the fifth had a better fifth. A lot of people are saying that. A lot.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.

    . . . he had “absolutely no choice” but to take the Fifth . . .
    Not so. He had a choice. He chose.
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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.

    .
    Trump... said in a statement Wednesday that he had “absolutely no choice” but to take the Fifth during his under-oath interview with the attorney general’s office.
    This leads me to presume any answers would have been self-incriminating.

    And in a civil trial a jury is permitted to make the same presumption. As may the judge if Trump options for a bench trial.
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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.

    .
    Put another way: Trump decided that telling the truth under oath could get him in criminal trouble or indicted. So he chose to exercise his constitutional right to not answer questions. Who am I to say he was incorrect in his assessment? I already thought he is a criminal. This merely reinforces that belief.
    "I'll tell you why [religion's] not a scam. In my opinion, all right? Tide goes in, tide goes out. Never a miscommunication. You can't explain that."Bill O'Reilly

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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.

    This was for defrauding lenders and the IRS?

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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.

    ^
    It is about defrauding banks and the State of New York. The New York attorney general's office says its investigators have uncovered evidence that Donald Trump's company used "fraudulent or misleading" asset valuations to get loans and tax benefits. James' office has filed a number of civil lawsuits against the Trump organization and is cooperating with the Manhattan District Attorney's criminal investigation.
    Last edited by Tom Montgomery; 08-10-2022 at 06:45 PM.
    "I'll tell you why [religion's] not a scam. In my opinion, all right? Tide goes in, tide goes out. Never a miscommunication. You can't explain that."Bill O'Reilly

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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.

    A very big man, a burly man with tears in his eyes, said "Sir. That's the bigliest 5th ever seen. Like nobody's seen before."
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    ^
    It is about defrauding banks and the State of New York. The New York attorney general's office says its investigators have uncovered evidence that President Donald Trump's company used "fraudulent or misleading" asset valuations to get loans and tax benefits. James' office has filed a number of civil lawsuits against the Trump organization and is cooperating with the Manhattan District Attorney's criminal investigation.
    Like he told Clinton “that means I’m smart!”

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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.

    "I'll tell you why [religion's] not a scam. In my opinion, all right? Tide goes in, tide goes out. Never a miscommunication. You can't explain that."Bill O'Reilly

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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.

    Skip takes the fifth! or two!

    Skip

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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Not so. He had a choice. He chose.
    Ivanka and Jared did not take the 5th when they went in for their depositions. Just saying.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.

    Quote Originally Posted by SKIP KILPATRICK View Post
    Skip takes the fifth! or two!


    ^ I see no issues with that , Skip ! ! !
    Charter Member - - Professional Procrastinators Association of America - - putting things off since 1965 " I'll get around to it tomorrow, .... maybe "

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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.


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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.

    I am sure his lawyers advised him to take the 5th since otherwise he would have lied and ended up charged with perjury.

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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post

    Trump... said in a statement Wednesday that he had "absolutely no choice" but to take the Fifth during his under-oath interview with the attorney general’s office.
    This leads me to presume any answers would have been self-incriminating.

    And in a civil trial a jury is permitted to make the same presumption. As may the judge if Trump options for a bench trial.
    Trial attorney friend of mind pointed out in conversation this morning that

    (1) he really didn't have much of a choice as to taking the 5th or not, as there is an ongoing, parallel criminal fraud investigation. Anything he deposes under oath in these civil proceedings is fair game as evidence for the criminal fraud proceedings, and that

    (2) Any competent trial attorney is going to ask him the exact same questions when he's on the stand in the trial and force him to take the 5th again. In front of the jury. And from which [non-]testimony the jury is permitted to draw a negative inference.

    He's rather caught between a rock and the proverbial hard place.
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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.

    Yeah that's how it shakes out

    And the deposition lasted for five or six hours because Trump was asked every pertinent question so that he was on the record invoking the 5th. At trial, he will be hard pressed to answer any question that he refused to answer before.

    And yes the jury can consider all the times he refused to answer based on the 5th
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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.

    But but but Benghazi, Benghazi, Benghazi,



    11 hrs of testimony and not once did she plead the 5th
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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.

    Lock him up, lock him up!
    The Ignore feature, lowering blood pressure since 1862. Ahhhhhhh.

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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.

    .
    Taking the fifth amendment over 400 times in a deposition regarding a civil case is probably not the smartest choice.

    Trump Tower, Golf Courses 'At Stake' in N.Y. as Trump Pleads Fifth: Expert

    BY JASON LEMON ON 8/11/22 AT 9:39 AM EDT


    A former assistant attorney general for New York state warned that former President Donald Trump's most prized assets, including Trump Tower in Manhattan and his golf courses, are "at stake" in the civil probe by Attorney General Letitia James.

    Trump sat for an hour-long deposition on Wednesday, reportedly invoking his Fifth Amendment right not to answer questions more than 400 times. The investigation involves the valuation of Trump's assets, and whether the former president's business, the Trump Organization, misrepresented the stated valuations of some of its real estate assets for financial gain, including better terms on loans and insurance, as well as tax benefits.

    Tristan Snell, the managing partner of mainstreet.law and a former assistant attorney general for New York state, said that the probe is a "big deal" and assessed that Trump pleading the Fifth made James' case "even stronger." Notably, Snell helped lead the successful civil prosecution of the now-defunct Trump University, which ultimately resulted in a $25 million settlement.

    "This cuts right to the crown jewel of his real estate portfolio," Snell told Business Insider.

    James, a Democrat, has suggested she might seek the dissolution of Trump's businesses through New York's so-called corporate death penalty. The Trump Foundation was previously dissolved after facing prosecution in 2019.

    "It's everything, because at issue is Trump Tower [in Manhattan], at issue is 40 Wall Street, which is one of his most beloved properties and probably one of the more valuable ones," Snell told Insider. "All of his golf courses are also at stake, so it's a big deal."

    On Twitter, Snell said that Trump pleading the Fifth did not help his case.

    "This is a civil case—so the court can draw an inference of liability," he wrote. "This is exactly what the AG was hoping to achieve. The case is now even stronger."

    "After Trump took the Fifth today, I would bet that the NY AG will officially commence its lawsuit against the Trumps for tax and financial fraud within the next 3-6 months, maybe much sooner—and likely before the holidays," Snell added in another post.

    Trump has strongly denied any wrongdoing. He contends that the New York probe is part of a broader "witch hunt" against him and his allies. He argues that the investigation is politically motivated.

    "I once asked, 'If you're innocent, why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?' Now I know the answer to that question," Trump said in a Wednesday statement.

    "When your family, your company and all the people in your orbit have become the targets of an unfounded, politically motivated Witch Hunt supported by lawyers, prosecutors and the Fake News Media, you have no choice."

    Newsweek reached out to Trump's press office for further comment.

    "While we will not comment on specific details, we can confirm that today, our office conducted a deposition of former president Donald Trump," the spokesperson said, CNBC reported.

    "Attorney General Letitia James took part in the deposition during which Mr. Trump invoked his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination. Attorney General James will pursue the facts and the law wherever they may lead. Our investigation continues."

    https://www.newsweek.com/trump-tower...expert-1732903
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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.

    Supposedly 400 times, although I have my doubts they asked 400 questions in his attempted deposition.


    As usual, I doubt the Stumps will care.
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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.

    That old gaslighting magic, if Trump is ok with defrauding people then why should his supporters care? It’s their time to stick it to and TFG is their FG for sticking it.

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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    The best fifth. No one in the history of the taking the fifth had a better fifth. A lot of people are saying that. A lot.
    That was good!
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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.

    F@ck Trump.

    There's a good article in this week's New Yorker on how the generals did their best to restrain Trump while he was president.

    "Inside the War Between Trump and his Generals"

    Example:

    "But the gulf between Trump and the generals was not really about money or practicalities, just as their endless policy battles were not only about clashing views on whether to withdraw from Afghanistan or how to combat the nuclear threat posed by North Korea and Iran. The divide was also a matter of values, of how they viewed the United States itself. That was never clearer than when Trump told his new chief of staff, John Kelly—like Mattis, a retired Marine Corps general—about his vision for Independence Day. “Look, I don’t want any wounded guys in the parade,” Trump said. “This doesn’t look good for me.” He explained with distaste that at the Bastille Day parade there had been several formations of injured veterans, including wheelchair-bound soldiers who had lost limbs in battle.Kelly could not believe what he was hearing. “Those are the heroes,” he told Trump. “In our society, there’s only one group of people who are more heroic than they are—and they are buried over in Arlington.” Kelly did not mention that his own son Robert, a lieutenant killed in action in Afghanistan, was among the dead interred there.

    “I don’t want them,” Trump repeated. “It doesn’t look good for me.”


    Or:

    It turned out that the generals had rules, standards, and expertise, not blind loyalty. The President’s loud complaint to John Kelly one day was typical: “You fucking generals, why can’t you be like the German generals?”
    “Which generals?” Kelly asked.
    “The German generals in World War II,” Trump responded.
    “You do know that they tried to kill Hitler three times and almost pulled it off?” Kelly said.

    But, of course, Trump did not know that. “No, no, no, they were totally loyal to him,” the President replied. In his version of history, the generals of the Third Reich had been completely subservient to Hitler; this was the model he wanted for his military. Kelly told Trump that there were no such American generals, but the President was determined to test the proposition.

    And much, much more.

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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.


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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerarddm View Post
    Supposedly 400 times, although I have my doubts they asked 400 questions in his attempted deposition.
    Not in an hour-long session, that's for sure.

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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.

    The right to a lawyer AND the right to take the 5th have always been intended to protect an innocent person. I'm sure many of you will say he is not innocent. And you may be right. I'm not well versed enough in this issue to say and even if I was, our system also prioritizes the assumption of innocence. As is standard in all these kinds of cases, their lawyer encourages them to say as little as possible. Even innocent people can get into trouble when they say too much. Please, I am not defending him here as much as to speak to the issue of an accused right to remain silent.

    When I was younger I assumed silence was a sign of guilt, but as I have gotten older I have learned that every good lawyer impresses upon their client the need to say as little as possible. Yes he might be guilty, but I don't think his 5th is any more than the advice of a competent lawyer who may or may not be defending an innocent man.

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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom
    Not in an hour-long session, that's for sure.
    The deposition took about four hours.
    "I'll tell you why [religion's] not a scam. In my opinion, all right? Tide goes in, tide goes out. Never a miscommunication. You can't explain that."Bill O'Reilly

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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.

    NEW! T**** brand vodka - made in Russia, sold in the US and only comes in Fifths.
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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum
    The right to a lawyer AND the right to take the 5th have always been intended to protect an innocent person. I'm sure many of you will say he is not innocent. And you may be right. I'm not well versed enough in this issue to say and even if I was, our system also prioritizes the assumption of innocence. As is standard in all these kinds of cases, their lawyer encourages them to say as little as possible. Even innocent people can get into trouble when they say too much. Please, I am not defending him here as much as to speak to the issue of an accused right to remain silent.

    When I was younger I assumed silence was a sign of guilt, but as I have gotten older I have learned that every good lawyer impresses upon their client the need to say as little as possible. Yes he might be guilty, but I don't think his 5th is any more than the advice of a competent lawyer who may or may not be defending an innocent man.
    What I do know is that the standards in a civil trial are different from those in a criminal trial. Guilt or innocence in a civil trial is determined by the preponderance of the evidence. And a jury in a civil trial is permitted to draw a negative inference from a defendant's assertion of his fifth amendment right to refuse to answer questions that may incriminate him. Particularly when the other facts of the case tend to point to the defendant's guilt.

    As I pointed out before, if this investigation results in a civil trial Trump's decision to determinedly take the Fifth may prove to have been a bad one.
    Last edited by Tom Montgomery; 08-12-2022 at 09:54 AM.
    "I'll tell you why [religion's] not a scam. In my opinion, all right? Tide goes in, tide goes out. Never a miscommunication. You can't explain that."Bill O'Reilly

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    Default Trump Takes The Fifth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    The right to a lawyer AND the right to take the 5th have always been intended to protect an innocent person. I'm sure many of you will say he is not innocent. And you may be right. I'm not well versed enough in this issue to say and even if I was, our system also prioritizes the assumption of innocence. As is standard in all these kinds of cases, their lawyer encourages them to say as little as possible. Even innocent people can get into trouble when they say too much. Please, I am not defending him here as much as to speak to the issue of an accused right to remain silent.

    When I was younger I assumed silence was a sign of guilt, but as I have gotten older I have learned that every good lawyer impresses upon their client the need to say as little as possible. Yes he might be guilty, but I don't think his 5th is any more than the advice of a competent lawyer who may or may not be defending an innocent man.

    In a criminal case maybe so, in a civil case it is a whole different story and an adverse inference can often be made when someone pleads the fifth in a civil case.
    We will see how it plays out.


    Edit:
    I see Tom M beat me to it.

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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    The right to a lawyer AND the right to take the 5th have always been intended to protect an innocent person. I'm sure many of you will say he is not innocent. And you may be right. I'm not well versed enough in this issue to say and even if I was, our system also prioritizes the assumption of innocence. As is standard in all these kinds of cases, their lawyer encourages them to say as little as possible. Even innocent people can get into trouble when they say too much. Please, I am not defending him here as much as to speak to the issue of an accused right to remain silent.

    When I was younger I assumed silence was a sign of guilt, but as I have gotten older I have learned that every good lawyer impresses upon their client the need to say as little as possible. Yes he might be guilty, but I don't think his 5th is any more than the advice of a competent lawyer who may or may not be defending an innocent man.
    There is no presumption of innocence in a civil case. Your comments are correct for a criminal matter. Trump's deposition was in a civil matter.
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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.

    TO all those that said that presumption of innocence does not extend to civil cases.... Thank you. As I said I was not up on this case and assumed it was criminal. That said no competent attorney is going to have their client say the least they can say. The 5th is a fundamental protection.

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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    TO all those that said that presumption of innocence does not extend to civil cases.... Thank you. As I said I was not up on this case and assumed it was criminal. That said no competent attorney is going to have their client say the least they can say. The 5th is a fundamental protection.
    Sure, but the topic is Trump’s fraudulent accounting not the 5th in general.

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    Default Re: Trump Takes The Fifth.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    Sure, but the topic is Trump’s fraudulent accounting not the 5th in general.
    It is his right to take it and no competent attorney would recommend otherwise whether he is guilty or innocent.

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