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Thread: Bicycle lane signage?

  1. #1
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    Default Bicycle lane signage?

    The main road in front of my house is a county road that gets plenty of traffic. This is the main road for my part of suburbia. Because this road is the main route through, it also gets a fair amount of bike traffic. On the weekends, a peloton of thirty or so riders goes by. Just today, the county road crew added some bike share decals on the road. I frequently ride my bike along this route, and most often the drivers are considerate, but the shoulder is pretty narrow in places, and the bike logo specifically means for drivers to share the lane with bikes. Some of the road has a narrow shoulder with a guard rail on the outside. So as a cyclist you're trapped between guard rail and car traffic just a small distance from your elbow.
    IMG_20220809_131321.jpg

    Now my question is....
    Do these types of signage make any difference at all?
    Can anyone point to bike traffic studies that show the effectiveness of this type off signage? Or are these types of signs just "feel-good" but of little use.
    I've searched on line, but couldn't find anything.
    Thx.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    If that sort of occasional sign makes you feel safe riding in that lane, I hope you at least have a good helmet. All it takes is one moron messing with their phone while they are supposed to be driving and you're toast, even if you are right on top of the sign.

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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    Those "sharrows" are pretty much useless. The road is by law to be shared, adding the graphic does not change anything. I feel slightly safer in marked off bike lanes, but a physical divider is needed to actually reduce the number of car/bike collisions.

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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    I get nervous on my rare trips to Seattle
    D1280580-655C-4078-8BE3-EA8E88B5A69F.jpg
    ITS CHAOS, BE KIND

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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    Quote Originally Posted by RichW View Post
    The main road in front of my house is a county road that gets plenty of traffic. This is the main road for my part of suburbia. Because this road is the main route through, it also gets a fair amount of bike traffic. On the weekends, a peloton of thirty or so riders goes by. Just today, the county road crew added some bike share decals on the road. I frequently ride my bike along this route, and most often the drivers are considerate, but the shoulder is pretty narrow in places, and the bike logo specifically means for drivers to share the lane with bikes. Some of the road has a narrow shoulder with a guard rail on the outside. So as a cyclist you're trapped between guard rail and car traffic just a small distance from your elbow.
    IMG_20220809_131321.jpg

    Now my question is....
    Do these types of signage make any difference at all?
    Can anyone point to bike traffic studies that show the effectiveness of this type off signage? Or are these types of signs just "feel-good" but of little use.
    I've searched on line, but couldn't find anything.
    Thx.
    Why the wide shoulder of it’s not a bike lane? Were I riding my bike on that road I’d be way to the right and out of traffic.
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    Is a car to just follow behind the bicycle ?
    or a gaggle of them?

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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Bradshaw View Post
    If that sort of occasional sign makes you feel safe riding in that lane, I hope you at least have a good helmet. All it takes is one moron messing with their phone while they are supposed to be driving and you're toast, even if you are right on top of the sign.
    Yup. I was on that road on my motorcycle making a turn into my driveway. I was hit from behind by a car. The first thing the driver said was:
    "I only looked down at my phone for a second and you came out of nowhere!"

    Lucky I wasn't badly hurt... but had $1500 damage to the Triumph.

    When I'm on a bicycle I'm always to the right of the solid white line. I wouldn't even presume to argue with a driver about the right to the sharrow. I just wonder why the county road department went to the trouble of putting the bike logos on the road.

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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    Quote Originally Posted by RichW View Post
    Yup. I was on that road on my motorcycle making a turn into my driveway. I was hit from behind by a car. The first thing the driver said was:
    "I only looked down at my phone for a second and you came out of nowhere!"

    Lucky I wasn't badly hurt... but had $1500 damage to the Triumph.

    When I'm on a bicycle I'm always to the right of the solid white line. I wouldn't even presume to argue with a driver about the right to the sharrow. I just wonder why the county road department went to the trouble of putting the bike logos on the road.
    The UK has just closed a loophole.
    Anyone caught using their handheld device while driving could face a fine of up to 1,000 as well as 6 points on their licence or a full driving ban.
    6 points is halfway to losing your license.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    Perhaps you know that the bicycle infrastructure in my country is rather advanced. We have:
    separate cycling lanes they are shielded from other traffic,
    cycle suggestion lanes ( red tarmac) with a minimum suggested width of 1,7 meters
    and we have roads with no separate cycle lanes or cycle suggestion paths.

    The decision for the infrastructure is calculated on the amount of cycling and other traffic and the available space, I'm not an engineer but there are a lot of variables.
    In general the infrastructure mainly determines the security of the cyclists. The other important factor is the experience of the car user with cycle traffic. With over 18 million bicycles that experience is high over here.

    In my opinion the cycle symbol on the road is useless. It would be better to create a separate cycle path, you seem to have enough space for it.

    A picture of cycle suggestion lanes in a residental area. As you can see the cars drive partly on the cycle suggestion lane but they give way to the bicycle.
    A solution like this could work in your area but I'm not sure if it fits your traffic regulations.
    weg met fietspaden.jpg
    Last edited by dutchpp; 08-10-2022 at 12:52 AM.

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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    Quote Originally Posted by RichW View Post
    , but the shoulder is pretty narrow in places, and the bike logo specifically means for drivers to share the lane with bikes. Some of the road has a narrow shoulder with a guard rail on the outside. So as a cyclist you're trapped between guard rail and car traffic just a small distance from your elbow.
    I think some of the commenters missed the fact that the shoulder is narrow from time to time.

    The bike logo at least indicates that there is enough bicycle traffic to deserve signage. In that sense it works. It is difficult to count accidents that don't happen.

    I am comfortable on the roads I bicycle on. Some people are inconsiderate. Some are not paying attention. But on balance, not much different than the rest of life.
    Life is complex.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    Our town painted the "sharrows" because they were too scared of the reactions of motorists that would lose part of "their" road and parking spaces to put in bike lanes.

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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    Quote Originally Posted by dutchpp View Post
    Perhaps you know that the bicycle infrastructure in my country is rather advanced. We have:
    separate cycling lanes they are shielded from other traffic,
    cycle suggestion lanes ( red tarmac) with a minimum suggested width of 1,7 meters
    and we have roads with no separate cycle lanes or cycle suggestion paths.

    The decision for the infrastructure is calculated on the amount of cycling and other traffic and the available space, I'm not an engineer but there are a lot of variables.
    In general the infrastructure mainly determines the security of the cyclers. The other important factor is the experience of the car user with cycle traffic. With over 18 million bicycles that experience is high over here.

    In my opinion the cycle symbol on the road is useless. It would be better to create a separate cycle path, you seem to have enough space for it.

    A picture of cycle suggestion lanes in a residental area. As you can see the cars drive partly on the cycle suggestion lane but they give way to the bicycle.
    A solution like this could work in your area but I'm not sure if it fits your traffic regulations.
    weg met fietspaden.jpg
    Yes parts of Europe, particularly Netherlands, are so much better at combining bike and car traffic. Particularly at intersections, where many crashes occur here, Netherlands uses a light cycle set up to allow free transit in all directions of bikes and pedestrians. This appears to work, they all clear the intersection before the cars move and at the slow starting speed of the bikes cause very few crashes. Brilliant.

    London last time I was there was not so great. All the Bromptons and cabbies take off when the light changes in a crazed free for all. Yikes.

    Tokyo scares me the most. Cars and bikes pass in the narrow alleys with mm to spare. The drivers and riders all act as if it's no problem but I have considered bringing a bike and do not think I could pull it off.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    In the USdrivers proabably don't care, In Europe, they probably do. Keep in mind, most people ride bikes before they get a drivers' lic,

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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    Thanks all. I've cycled in the Netherlands and other Scandinavian countries and indeed, the consideration for the cyclist is much better than most parts of the US.

    That aside... I'm a little uncertain about why the local road department went to the trouble of painting the logos. I do know that a few years ago, a group of surveyors measured the road with the promise of widening the pavement and adding dedicated bike lanes. But this was shot down by private land owners along the right-of-way who feared loss of their property. The road in question goes through the center of a large private golf course and where the road has a blind curve and almost no shoulder at all. The most dangerous part of the road to ride on.

    I'm not aware of any car - bike accidents. And that's a surprise given the amount of car traffic, and the number of bikes doing crazy things:
    - bikes going the wrong way
    - teens riding looking at their cell phones
    - pelotons riding two or three abreast
    - kids riding to the beach with surf boards on side racks

    I've lived on this road for 15 years. During that time, there have been 7 car accidents right in front of my house. I live on a sharp bend and cars run off the road and hit a guard rail. The guard rail has multiple large dents from the impacts. One has BMW M3 paint, one Ford F150 color, etc.

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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    Rich, I've probably put 50,000 miles on my bike in Europe and covered 17 countries. Sometimes, more than once. Only place I didn't enjoy biking was PARIS!

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    Burlington, VT has lots of bike lanes. Unfortunately, they have a tendency to come and go, and some are between the regular travel lane and the right turn lane. One problem with bike lanes is the implication that bikes are not vehicles with a right to the lane. But the real problem is lack of education/seneitivity on the part of drivers.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    Quote Originally Posted by RichW View Post
    The main road in front of my house is a county road that gets plenty of traffic. This is the main road for my part of suburbia. Because this road is the main route through, it also gets a fair amount of bike traffic. On the weekends, a peloton of thirty or so riders goes by. Just today, the county road crew added some bike share decals on the road. I frequently ride my bike along this route, and most often the drivers are considerate, but the shoulder is pretty narrow in places, and the bike logo specifically means for drivers to share the lane with bikes. Some of the road has a narrow shoulder with a guard rail on the outside. So as a cyclist you're trapped between guard rail and car traffic just a small distance from your elbow.
    IMG_20220809_131321.jpg

    Now my question is....
    Do these types of signage make any difference at all?
    Can anyone point to bike traffic studies that show the effectiveness of this type off signage? Or are these types of signs just "feel-good" but of little use.
    I've searched on line, but couldn't find anything.
    Thx.

    That's a sharrow ("share the road arrow"), not a dedicated bicycle lane. They only thing "sharrows" do is to inform drivers that they're supposed to share the road with bicycles.

    Completely and utterly useless.

    See Sharrows, the bicycle infrastructure that doesn’t work and nobody wants.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bow View Post
    I get nervous on my rare trips to Seattle
    D1280580-655C-4078-8BE3-EA8E88B5A69F.jpg
    I ride my bicycle in downtown Seattle a couple of times per week, but it's not bad because the cars aren't going much faster than I am, and they're used to seeing bicycles. There are close calls but crashes can be avoided if I'm vigilant. I've been hit 4 by cars times in 40 years of steady bicycling, but all in a 10 year span, and none in the past 15 yrs, as each hit made me more careful. I do prefer city bicycling to busy suburban/rural 2-lane roads where traffic is coming from behind at 50-60 mph.

    Sharrows are probably a meaningless gesture, but they might raise driver's awareness a little bit. I almost never 'take the lane' as the sharrow symbols suggest, but stay as far to the right as practical. I think the pissed off drivers trying to pass me from behind would be a health risk that offsets any presumed benefits.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    Quote Originally Posted by rgthom View Post
    Those "sharrows" are pretty much useless. The road is by law to be shared, adding the graphic does not change anything. I feel slightly safer in marked off bike lanes, but a physical divider is needed to actually reduce the number of car/bike collisions.
    And dedicated bicycle lanes don't don anything either, except provide a false sense of security.

    The vast majority of car/bicycle collisions aren't bicycles getting sideswiped or tail-ended (though that certainly does happen).

    The vast majority of car/bicycle collisions are:

    1. Cyclist gets "doored". Cyclist is riding as far to the right as possible (as they're told to, and the law requires in many places). Person in a parked car opens the driver's side door so as to exit the vehicle . . . right into the path of the oncoming cyclist.

    2. The "left hook": Cyclist is proceeding straight through an intersection. Oncoming motorist turns left into cyclist.

    3. The "right cross": Cyclist is proceeding straight through an intersection. Motorist traveling in the same direction turns right into the cyclist.

    The "left hook" and "right cross" are aggravated by cyclists

    - Traveling as far to the right as possible, rather than being in the lane appropriate for their situation.

    - Passing vehicles on the right while they do so.

    Both of those hinder visibility and "do the unexpected". For instances, a lot of cyclists will be traveling on the right side of the rightmost (and right-turn only) lane and will go straight through the intersection. Drivers waiting in the right-turn only lane to turn right aren't expecting vehicles to be passing them on the right between their vehicle and the curb: Boom! A right cross! Similarly, drivers waiting to turn left aren't expected vehicles to come out of nowhere going straight in a right-turn only lane: Boom! A left hook!

    Dedicated bicycle lanes do absolutely nothing to mitigate these risks. And the bike lanes that put the bicycle lane to the curb side of parked cars actually aggravate the problem(s), because now, you're actually making it harder to see the cyclists.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    Quote Originally Posted by dutchpp View Post
    Perhaps you know that the bicycle infrastructure in my country is rather advanced. We have:
    separate cycling lanes they are shielded from other traffic,
    cycle suggestion lanes ( red tarmac) with a minimum suggested width of 1,7 meters
    and we have roads with no separate cycle lanes or cycle suggestion paths.

    The decision for the infrastructure is calculated on the amount of cycling and other traffic and the available space, I'm not an engineer but there are a lot of variables.
    In general the infrastructure mainly determines the security of the cyclers. The other important factor is the experience of the car user with cycle traffic. With over 18 million bicycles that experience is high over here.

    In my opinion the cycle symbol on the road is useless. It would be better to create a separate cycle path, you seem to have enough space for it.

    A picture of cycle suggestion lanes in a residental area. As you can see the cars drive partly on the cycle suggestion lane but they give way to the bicycle.
    A solution like this could work in your area but I'm not sure if it fits your traffic regulations.
    weg met fietspaden.jpg
    Ages ago, I rented a bicycle in Amsterdam. Returned it after a couple of hours. Realized there were lots of traffic rules regarding cycling, not to mention signals and signage and I was not au courant with any of it.

    Decided that it was safer for me (and everybody else) if I walked. Too many bicycles, and too many things I didn't know.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    I have no answers to your questions Rich but I do like the neighborhood.

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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post

    - Traveling as far to the right as possible, rather than being in the lane appropriate for their situation.
    I do know that taking the lane could prevent cars from making right turns into a bicyclist, and this might work on quieter roads with good visibility for passing. But what about thick commuter traffic that is travelling at 30-40 mph compared to your bicycle's 10-15 mph? Because of opposing traffic it's usually not possible for cars to pass you, so traffic will be massively held up and road rage will ensue. When I commuted by bicycle, shoulder riding was the only option for many roads. I still think the best defense is hyper vigilance and learning to read the traffic (and anticipate).

  23. #23
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    Default

    In NYC, there are designated, colored bike lanes in many streets. These are now mostly populated by electric bikes zooming.

    One solution can create other issues.

    Kevin


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  24. #24
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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    how about a nice short bike lane..

    or this one..
    Just an amateur bodging away..

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    On my trip through new mexico, most were indifferent. A few supportive honks. And out on an miserable dirt road in the mountains, one guy tried to kill me. Came over the lane straight at me and forced me to go into the ditch filled with refrigerator sized rocks. Just to be an asshole.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    ^^
    An old Amsterdam trick ( the Sodom and Gomorrah of cycling).
    Use the apple you've got in your back pocket. Launched with at least a 45 mph speed difference on the front windscreen it generates an educational effect.
    Immediately call the police and when the officer arrives tell him/her that you were eating an apple and somebody drove right into your path, out of fear you let go of the apple.
    With the average sized apple (130-180 grams) and speed difference below 60 mph he front screen stays intact.

    There are more destructive alternatives ( gravel stones, marbles, or even ball bearings) but the story to the officer gets seriously more complicated.
    So make sure you always have an apple at hand.
    Last edited by dutchpp; 08-10-2022 at 09:09 AM.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    I was (no damage) rear ended yesterday. I was braking for a cyclist who was riding on the sidewalk, in one motion she dismounted and started walking her bike across the crosswalk.
    I got the customary glare.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    It’s just not safe enough to mix it up w cars.

    Maybe in 20 more years this will be viable in parts of USA.


  29. #29
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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Q View Post
    how about a nice short bike lane..

    or this one..
    Those are down to the Law of Unintended Consequences.
    In order to encourage cycling, the PTB offered financial inducements to the highway Authority to help pay for road works if they included cycle lanes in the improvement. So idiotic stretches of cycle lane started cropping up everywhere.
    I see that there are also idiot car parkers in your area.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  30. #30
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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    Quote Originally Posted by dutchpp View Post
    ^^
    An old Amsterdam trick ( the Sodom and Gomorrah of cycling).
    Use the apple you've got in your back pocket. Launched with at least a 45 mph speed difference on the front windscreen it generates an educational effect.
    Immediately call the police and when the officer arrives tell him/her that you were eating an apple and somebody drove right into your path, out of fear you let go of the apple.
    With the average sized apple (130-180 grams) and speed difference below 60 mph he front screen stays intact.

    There are more destructive alternatives ( gravel stones, marbles, or even ball bearings) but the story to the officer gets seriously more complicated.
    So make sure you always have an apple at hand.
    Yeah, c’mon over here and try that on some good old boy in his Ram Dually with a 12” lift kit and a 6’ Trump 2024 flag. But please let me know when and where, ‘cause I gotta put that on YouTube.
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    In the US you keep the apple next to the .45

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    Quote Originally Posted by dutchpp View Post
    In the US you keep the apple next to the .45
    The only other forum I belong to is a bicycling one, probably even more left-leaning than this one. In spite of this, at least two members acknowledge carrying a handgun in their handlebar bag, and there are certainly many more who do not publicize this fact.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    Without joking now.
    This thread triggered my curiosity; "What is the difference of safety for cyclists in NW Europe ( especially the Netherlands and Denmark both cycling countries with comparable cycling infrastructure and traffic laws) and the USA"
    Not to brag about Europe but to get an idea about the amount of improvement which is achievable in certain area's of the USA.
    Problem is that I can't find data about the amount of miles the average cyclist in the USA cycles every year.
    I could find the estimated number of active cyclists which is approximately 47-50 million, I use 50 for the calculations.
    The number of death cyclists in the USA in 2020 was 932, so from every 53.648 cyclists 1 dies in an accident each year.

    In the Netherlands there are approximately 15 million cyclists and in 2021 207 cyclists died, so from every 72.463 cyclists 1 dies in an accident each year.
    The Dutch numbers are slightly better but I suspect that these numbers don't show the real differences.
    I found this older graph;
    statistiek fietsdoden.jpg
    This shows a much larger difference but is from 2009-2015 so it's a bit old.

    In the Netherlands the average cyclist cycles approximately 1100km each year, so in total that's 16,5 billion kilometers/year divided by the yearly deaths results in 1 death cyclist for every 79,7 million cycled kilometers.

    What would be a good estimate for the average number of miles for each American cyclist?
    Last edited by dutchpp; 08-10-2022 at 01:09 PM.

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Bicycle lane signage?

    My non touring miles take place in Vermont, and are probably not comparable to those of someone living in an urban area like NYC.

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