Results 1 to 32 of 32

Thread: Frames, ideas please!

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2022
    Location
    Queensland Australia
    Posts
    6

    Default Frames, ideas please!

    Hi all,
    New to this forum. Please can someone share their input and expertise.
    I'm buying a 75year old wooden ketch and whilst the planks and hull shape look to sit nicely inside looks like a different story.
    The owner keeps saying shes seaworthy and ready to go and that what I'm looking at 'is nothing'.
    I grew up sailing small wooden boats but this is beyond me.
    Please I would really appreciate input.

    This is all down one side .. I'm seeing broken frames x10 that I've seen so far, 7 sisters that I can see but appears to be poorly done to me as the sisters don't extend much beyond the breaks. Frames in poorly ventilated areas are somewhat soft.
    The boat is a 30ft ketch, the last owners lived on for 25years but it's his idea that you are better to leave it alone and not touch... I had dreamt of traveling in her but I think she needs a lot of work!
    Thank you in advance for any input 🙏
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wongawallan Oz
    Posts
    16,959

    Default Re: Frames, ideas please!

    What’s the design, what’s she planked and framed from and is she in or out of the water? IE can you get a better look and feel of the hull timber below the water line as well as the frames? Where in Qld are you located and are you up for doing the work yourself?

    Frames can be replaced and/or new pieces scarfed in but it depends on access as to how easy that can be and whether she is worth the effort or not.

    Any idea why the owner is selling her?

    What you are looking at is certainly not “nothing”. As well as being integral to the structure of the hull, the frames may be a good indicator of other problems of neglect and poor repairs.

    Any photos of the boat itself?

    cheers

    Greg
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2022
    Location
    Queensland Australia
    Posts
    6

    Default Re: Frames, ideas please!

    Hi Greg,

    Thanks so much for your input!
    It's a 1952 John Hanna design, Tahiti Ketch.
    She's in the water but I'm getting her out Wednesday.
    I am currently in Sunshine Coast & up to the timber work..looks to be ALOT..will be a learning curve.
    The timebr in the frames and below waterline is Spotted Gum.
    I'll attach some pictures..
    Owner is selling because he got another boat.
    Thank you again for your input. I do know this is not 'nothing' though he is such a nice man I was beginning to doubt myself.
    Access to frames would require removing the interior..

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2022
    Location
    Queensland Australia
    Posts
    6

    Default Re: Frames, ideas please!


  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2022
    Location
    Queensland Australia
    Posts
    6

    Default Re: Frames, ideas please!


  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2022
    Location
    Queensland Australia
    Posts
    6

    Default Re: Frames, ideas please!


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Location
    Rushworth, Australia
    Posts
    985

    Default Re: Frames, ideas please!

    My alarm bells would be ringing…..”such a nice man” course he is, trying to open your wallet. “Got another boat” easy said.

    immediate suspicions from photos , half arsed paint work, mess in bilges, garden hose, random bits of wood, poorly done sisters, who knows how many more.

    75 y.o. timber boat, amateur built & maintained more than like - I hope you’re up for it. Please listen to the surveyor (I hope you’re getting a survey & be there but don’t interrupt)
    Last edited by Andrew Donald; 08-07-2022 at 03:26 AM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2022
    Location
    Queensland Australia
    Posts
    6

    Default Re: Frames, ideas please!

    Thank you Andrew

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound/summer Eastern carib./winter
    Posts
    21,856

    Default Re: Frames, ideas please!

    Don't interupt the surveyor?' he is not doing eye surgery.
    unless this vessel is built of some of that aussi/kiwi miracle wood, you are fcked.
    I've seen this a score of times..fine furniature joinery becomes responcible for the slow death of yacht
    Yes you have to rip it all out ,all the pretty interior, all the soft frames, all the sketchy rivets, all the caulking/putty /bungs and paint.....at this point you have done more work than build a new boat.
    bruce
    Last edited by wizbang 13; 08-07-2022 at 07:15 AM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Mountains of Ocooch
    Posts
    1,069

    Default Re: Frames, ideas please!

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Don't interupt the surveyor?' he is not doing eye surgery.
    Maybe not but if his train of thought’s tipped off rails it’ll be prospective buyer who gets to deal next with a wallet surgeon.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Sound Beach, NY
    Posts
    5,041

    Default Re: Frames, ideas please!

    Things aren't always as bad, or good, as they look. Thorough investigation is the only way to know. Good luck.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    810

    Default Re: Frames, ideas please!

    The alarm lamp is lit but just like the oil pressure lamp on the dashboard of your car it is just an alarm. Now it is up to you to find out whether it is a false alarm or the other way around. Be careful and wathch out!
    The boat may still be perfectly rebuildable but you don't know and you should not pay for anything beyond what you know for sure.

    "His idea that you are better to leave it alone and not touch" is apparently a lie of the sort that would befit someone high up in the government of Russia. Utter bull****. Either he doesn't dare to touch it and preferes to look the other way or he is trying to tell you full of lies.
    Amateur living on the western coast of Finland

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    St. Helens, Oregon
    Posts
    4,828

    Default Re: Frames, ideas please!

    I guess much of the decision rests on whether you want to sail or want to take on a major restoration.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    northeast Ohio
    Posts
    2,848

    Default Re: Frames, ideas please!

    I can smell the rot from here....
    Get a qualified wooden boat surveyor to inspect this boat before you plunk down any cash.
    Never trust what the seller is telling you...or take the advice of a seller's surveyor.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Norwich,United Kingdom
    Posts
    9,314

    Default Re: Frames, ideas please!

    That has all the hallmarks of a neglected boat.Unless a reliable surveyor gives it the OK you should walk away,or even run away.I've witnessed several instances of enthusiastic amateur restorers getting out of their depth and losing such a lot of time and money that their whole life takes a turn for the worse.As in homeless,boatless,broke and divorced.

    Having a surveyor's dispassionate eye examining things will reveal the truth.I wouldn't be too shocked to learn that the engine is tired and the sails long past their best.It could be that insurance will be unavailable without a satisfactory survey in any case.The dream of sailing off for a carefree life may be appealing but with a significant restoration to undertake it could be some way off.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    9,701

    Default Re: Frames, ideas please!

    So does "I'm buying" mean that the papers have been signed? I hope not. A boat this old and complex needs a complete survey by a professional before it's bought by anyone. Even if you still want it after the survey, you need to know how much work is required to bring it up too snuff so you can put the cost of that work into the purchase price. It may be a one dollar boat.
    -Dave

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wongawallan Oz
    Posts
    16,959

    Default Re: Frames, ideas please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bee19 View Post
    Hi Greg,

    Thanks so much for your input!
    It's a 1952 John Hanna design, Tahiti Ketch.
    She's in the water but I'm getting her out Wednesday.
    I am currently in Sunshine Coast & up to the timber work..looks to be ALOT..will be a learning curve.
    The timebr in the frames and below waterline is Spotted Gum.
    I'll attach some pictures..
    Owner is selling because he got another boat.
    Thank you again for your input. I do know this is not 'nothing' though he is such a nice man I was beginning to doubt myself.
    Access to frames would require removing the interior..
    If you are lining up a surveyor make sure that they are experienced with surveying timber boats and not just a general marine surveyor. Ask them how well they know their timbers, for example what they know of spotted gum. It is a popular boat building timber but Bootle’s (Wood in Australia) advises that it is durability rated M4 for marine borers, which is the bottom of the durability scale for borers (M1 is the top). I’m also lead to believe that it is prone to rot but that’s not covered in Bootle’s.

    She does look like a boat worth saving, if she’s the one on the Australian historic ships register (and if that is a legitimate claim) - but be prepared for the work and make sure that she is priced according to the work needed. She looks over-priced to me given her condition.There’s another John Hanna Tahiti ketch for sale in Vic’ at the moment that might give you some leverage on price - depending on what condition that one is in https://www.boatsonline.com.au/boats...i-ketch/257079.

    And as Dave said, if you are paying a surveyor get them to produce a work list of what they see as required, not just structurally but including systems and equipment that need replacing or adding.

    If I was the other side of Brisbane I’d come and have a look with you, but cheers and good luck - let us know how you go.

    Greg

    PS, if I’m looking at the right Tahitian ketch advert' it mentions “deadwood copper sheathed” and that kinda rings another alarm bell. It’s not common practice these days and I wonder if it may be being used as a makeshift repair over rot or borer damage, ie a tingle repair, rather than an antifouling sheathing. I’d really want to see what is behind the sheathing so you may want to either argue that the owner needs to be prepared to show what’s under the sheathing for dull disclosure or be prepared yourself to cover the cost of removing the copper and replacing it if you don’t buy the boat.

    And be aware that any surveyor will only report on what they can see and will provide multiple disclaimers against anything that they could not see or could not gain access.
    Last edited by Larks; 08-07-2022 at 04:52 PM.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Location
    Rushworth, Australia
    Posts
    985

    Default Re: Frames, ideas please!

    When I say “don’t interrupt surveyor” what I mean is don’t constantly ask questions and extend the time of his job. He’ll start getting annoyed and cut short looking where he should. Just be around for them to show you stuff and ask questions later. But you’ll be able to judge.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    north queensland
    Posts
    2,918

    Default Re: Frames, ideas please!

    spend your money on something less arduous.... by the time you get this yacht seaworthy she will cost you twice as much again. I would ask why she has such severe damage to the hull above the turn of the bilge. the "furry" looking condition of a number of planks and other timbers may suggest galvanic leakage and subsequent destruction of the wood fibres not yet completely apparent. deadwood sheathing is a sensible traditional practice in timber boatbuilding given it will add life to the vessel as it is likely to be the lowest part of the keel and therefore when grounding, prone to suffer damage which is then followed by borer attack and so forth.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Melb, Vic, Aus
    Posts
    747

    Default Re: Frames, ideas please!

    Do your best to imagine/calculate how much time and money a project such as this would take.
    then times it by a minimum of 12 on a good day then times that by 2 and your getting close. Kinda joking, kinda not.
    the fresh topsides and antifoul paint has me asking questions as well. What’s he hiding? Ask around the yard where the work was done.
    Someone would have seen what’s been done. Don’t be afraid to ask.
    re read the replies above. It has the potential to set you back many years.
    good luck!

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Location
    Aberdeenshire, UK
    Posts
    59

    Default Re: Frames, ideas please!

    I noticed stainless steel nuts and bolts in there on the cheaply repaired sections which will be in the process of dissolving the bronze rivets securing the planking to the original frames. Everything about this screams "run away" to me, unless you're looking for a restoration project and are getting the boat for basically nothing. This is a 30ft Tally Ho job as far as I can see.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Billings, Montana
    Posts
    1,088

    Default Re: Frames, ideas please!

    Just FYI - I bought a 1984 40' Freedom FG schooner for $32,000 ten years ago. I've spent over $200,000 (parts and labor) so far just on a refit. But I have replaced about everything that can be replaced and I got screwed some along the way.

    Beware.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    477

    Default Re: Frames, ideas please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Donald View Post
    My alarm bells would be ringing…..”such a nice man” course he is, trying to open your wallet. “Got another boat” easy said.

    immediate suspicions from photos , half arsed paint work, mess in bilges, garden hose, random bits of wood, poorly done sisters, who knows how many more.

    75 y.o. timber boat, amateur built & maintained more than like - I hope you’re up for it. Please listen to the surveyor (I hope you’re getting a survey & be there but don’t interrupt)
    I think you are spot on with your comments, Andrew

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    477

    Default Re: Frames, ideas please!

    Gary,

    Stay with the little boats. I bought one "big" boat back in 1972 and decided after that to stick to boats that I can trailer and put in our garage. Although, my brother loves his Sea Ray and takes it up the coast from Seattle.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Billings, Montana
    Posts
    1,088

    Default Re: Frames, ideas please!

    I'm starting to share that sentiment Wayne. My body just doesn't want to let me enjoy the cruising lifestyle I crave.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Frames, ideas please!

    walk away

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Norwalk CT
    Posts
    2,672

    Default Re: Frames, ideas please!

    Run away. That boat is not worth the time, money and energy it will require to save it. The owner has been living aboard fro 25 years and his attitude is "Dnt touch it"? Would you buy a house from somebody with the same idea?
    Go find a nice boat that needs some TLC. This boat needs five gallons of gas and a road flare.

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Aquitaine
    Posts
    2,283

    Default Re: Frames, ideas please!

    Bee, what you say is 'beyond you' is very true. Please run away from this. Only grief.

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Location
    Aberdeenshire, UK
    Posts
    59

    Default Re: Frames, ideas please!

    Don't touch it = You won't like what you find when you take the lid off this can of worms.

    This really pains me actually. It's a beautiful boat and someone put a great deal of love and effort into building it, and like all wooden boats they need an owner who will keep on top of things. This seller very obviously hasn't kept on top of it, and now that beautiful boat that someone else put so much work into is so far gone that it's realistically beyond saving. It's a real shame.

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Norwich,United Kingdom
    Posts
    9,314

    Default Re: Frames, ideas please!

    The OP seems to have gone very quiet in the last couple of days.I do hope for his sake that he hasn't decided to ignore the advice offered here because the seller says "Its nothing".If it really was of no significance,why hasn't the work been done?

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound/summer Eastern carib./winter
    Posts
    21,856

    Default Re: Frames, ideas please!

    I hope he dissappeared from that boat as fast

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    565

    Default Re: Frames, ideas please!

    the last owners lived on for 25years but it's his idea that you are better to leave it alone and not touch...”

    Apparently


    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
    -The Dude-

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •