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Thread: Rhine River level

  1. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndanteEd View Post
    And what do the majority of trains in Europe run on?

    Attachment 116008

    Standard US barge on the Mississippi/Ohio system carries 1,500 (anglo) tons of coal. pretty standard tow is 15 barges.

    Standard jumbo hopper railroad car holds about 100 tons of coal.

    15 barges at 1500 tons is 22500 tons, or 225 jumbo hopper cars full of coal.

    22,500 anglo tons in 45,000,000 pounds, 20,400,000 kilos.

    Not going to climb much of a hill with a train like that. Let an engineer describe it:

    "As a former freight engineer out of Los Angeles, I routinely ran 16,000 ton coal trains from Las Vegas to the port at Long Beach. The route traverses two heavy grades (2%) at Cima and Cajon and usually required 3 C-45, 4000 HP units on the head end, 2 placed mid-train, and one on the rear. Total cars usually about 90 with a length of 4,800 to 5,000 feet."

    The train nuts explain the maths:

    https://cs.trains.com/trn/f/741/t/213110.aspx
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. ó P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Rhine River level

    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie 2 View Post
    Not exactly clean and clear water in that river is it.
    If you take into account that one of the most industrialized zone's of the world ( the German Ruhr area) uses the Rhine as it's sewer system the water is actually of an acceptable quality.Of course it's quality could certainly improve, especially the polluting exotic chemicals like PFAS, medicine components, etc. should be reduced further.

    Probably a bit like some of the rivers in your country
    Last edited by dutchpp; 08-06-2022 at 02:36 AM.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Rhine River level

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    Standard US barge on the Mississippi/Ohio system carries 1,500 (anglo) tons of coal. pretty standard tow is 15 barges.

    Standard jumbo hopper railroad car holds about 100 tons of coal.

    15 barges at 1500 tons is 22500 tons, or 225 jumbo hopper cars full of coal.

    22,500 anglo tons in 45,000,000 pounds, 20,400,000 kilos.

    Not going to climb much of a hill with a train like that. Let an engineer describe it:

    "As a former freight engineer out of Los Angeles, I routinely ran 16,000 ton coal trains from Las Vegas to the port at Long Beach. The route traverses two heavy grades (2%) at Cima and Cajon and usually required 3 C-45, 4000 HP units on the head end, 2 placed mid-train, and one on the rear. Total cars usually about 90 with a length of 4,800 to 5,000 feet."

    The train nuts explain the maths:

    https://cs.trains.com/trn/f/741/t/213110.aspx
    Thanks, very informative answer.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Rhine River level

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    Don't think rail can move anything close to the tonnage that a big tow can move. And, in Europe, passenger rail tends to have priority over freight.
    A single standard central european coal wagon carries about 50t of coal. Germans import about 40 million tons of coal per year, what gives the need to move on average 2000 wagons a day. That's 60 trains, approximately. Totally doable, if you can conjure rolling stock. Finding extra rolling stock is still the easiest part: I'm not sure they have the infrastructure at the recipient site. I am sure that their rail network is already overloaded, with cargo rail repeatedly running late.

    Rhine drying out won't cause mass blackouts, since while Germans burn a lot of coal, it's mostly lignite. You don't transport lignite long distance; you're building the power plant next to the deposit, therefore Rhine is not involved. There's a different coal connected problem, maybe more serious than a small blackout potential: 35-40% of black coal is used for steel production. 50% of steel plants lies close enough to Rhine to have me suspect they rely on the river for transport and/or cooling.

    Say, have you seen a coal gondola unloading?
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  5. #40
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    Default Re: Rhine River level

    Seeing how far the empty car goes just by gravity & how it has to do a second trip to slow down shows how efficient rail is for moving heavy loads.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Quote Originally Posted by WszystekPoTrochu View Post
    A single standard central european coal wagon carries about 50t of coal. Germans import about 40 million tons of coal per year, what gives the need to move on average 2000 wagons a day. That's 60 trains, approximately. Totally doable, if you can conjure rolling stock. Finding extra rolling stock is still the easiest part: I'm not sure they have the infrastructure at the recipient site. I am sure that their rail network is already overloaded, with cargo rail repeatedly running late.

    Rhine drying out won't cause mass blackouts, since while Germans burn a lot of coal, it's mostly lignite. You don't transport lignite long distance; you're building the power plant next to the deposit, therefore Rhine is not involved. There's a different coal connected problem, maybe more serious than a small blackout potential: 35-40% of black coal is used for steel production. 50% of steel plants lies close enough to Rhine to have me suspect they rely on the river for transport and/or cooling.

    Say, have you seen a coal gondola unloading?

    [I've always like the "just turn it over and shake it" approach.]

    We've got rotary gondolas like that, too, but also bottom hopper gondolas like these, with automated bottom gates. As the gondola comes over the dump, the gates open and the load drops below the tracks.

    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. ó P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  7. #42
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    Default Rhine River level

    Here's a video unloading a bottom dump hopper gondola. Scrub to about the 6m mark to see the unloading 115 tons of coal (250,000 pounds, 104,000 kilos) in about 5 seconds.

    https://youtu.be/d8EonnNaFCo

    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. ó P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  8. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Seeing how far the empty car goes just by gravity & how it has to do a second trip to slow down shows how efficient rail is for moving heavy loads.

    And barges are to rail as rail is to trucks.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. ó P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Rhine River level

    Probably a bit like some of the rivers in your country [/QUOTE]

    True and fair enough.
    We have a few rivers that need clean up programmes too.
    I once thought I was wrong, but I was wrong, I wasn't wrong.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Rhine River level

    Still serious flooding here in places. Burrendong dam, which is several times bigger than Sydney Harbour and used to be our property boundary for several miles, was at 1.4 percent capacity a couple of years ago. Today it's at 134 percent and they're trying to get it down to 120 before Friday when the next two inches of rain is expected. That means releasing enough water to maintain flood level in the river which is still high from last weeks rain. It's been wet for so long now that it's having a real economic impact on the agricultural sector. JayInOz

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    Default Re: Rhine River level

    For us non-Europeans, Europe's worst drought in pictures. https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ht-in-pictures

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Rhine River level

    Quote Originally Posted by JayInOz View Post
    Still serious flooding here in places. Burrendong dam, which is several times bigger than Sydney Harbour and used to be our property boundary for several miles, was at 1.4 percent capacity a couple of years ago. Today it's at 134 percent and they're trying to get it down to 120 before Friday when the next two inches of rain is expected. That means releasing enough water to maintain flood level in the river which is still high from last weeks rain. It's been wet for so long now that it's having a real economic impact on the agricultural sector. JayInOz
    Out of the frying pan, and into the fire, eh? From drought to flood, both extreme. Good luck...

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  13. #48
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    Default Re: Rhine River level

    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie 2 View Post
    Probably a bit like some of the rivers in your country
    True and fair enough.
    We have a few rivers that need clean up programmes too.[/QUOTE]

    Yeh I remembered reading about it.
    In NZ the problem seems to be mainly the nitrates and phosphates deposited from the numerous farms and in populated areas perhaps from washing powders etc. These pollutions were attacked in the eighties and nineties over here.
    The problem in my country at this moment is the pollution with man created non bio degradable chemical substances like PFAS and medicine components, the pollution levels look very minute but now one knows the effects of these substances on human/animal live.
    A lot of drinking water is produced out of the Rhine water and the filtering out of these substances is a growing problem for the water companies.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Rhine River level

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    And barges are to rail as rail is to trucks.
    Yep. At least we still use some river freight here in the US.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Rhine River level

    One of the former Dutch governments spend a couple of billion €'s and built a specially designed 160 km long railroad track to complement the heavy transport via the Rhine river. It's called the Betuwelijn and is specifically designed for the heavy loads of coal, oar and other heavy goods as described in the posts above.
    On the map you can see it starts in Rotterdam ( just left of the map) and follows the Rhine river to the Dutch /German border on the right side of the map.
    There's one little problem the Germans never continued the line to the industrial Ruhr area. The heavy trains must follow the local Germany railroad lines which is nearly impossible because passenger trains have priority over cargo trains, so at the boundary the long cargo trains must be cut up in small pieces, which isn't efficient. The recent couple of dry years seems to speed up the process of lengthening this track to its destination in the Ruhr area in Germany.
    betuwelijn.jpg
    Last edited by dutchpp; 08-09-2022 at 06:47 AM.

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    Default Re: Rhine River level


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    Default Re: Rhine River level

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    Climate change deniers have become like flat earthers. Charts and graphs and convoluted explanations about how what we are seeing isnít really happening. And we are all sheep for believing it of course.
    I got into an argument on this a couple of years ago. I grew up along the water in Ocean City NJ. Growing up, we always had our spring and fall flood tides. When I was little, it was just a bit of water at the end of our street. Some areas flooded more, but I only remember the end of my street. As time went on, the flooding slowly got worse. As I entered HS, the flooding actually covered the fire hydrant on the corner and was almost to our driveway. The day after I left home my Father's car was flooded sitting in the driveway. In the space of 15 years it went from a foot or so to almost 5 feet of difference.

    I was told that it was actually subsidence and the oceans were not rising, but the ground sinking. Scientific estimates show that the Mid-Atlantic region will sink half a foot over the next 100 years. Subsidence is not causing the ever worsening flood tides.
    "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito"

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  18. #53
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    Default Re: Rhine River level

    I was talking to a friend last night who has lived on the same farm for just about all of her seventy eight years. She's a bad tempered, difficult woman but we have a history together and she's still my friend Last night I complained about the water and mud everywhere here at home and how it's impossible to do a lot of the work I want to get done. She replied that the creek in front of her house has risen and fallen more in the last year than she can remember in her entire life- and then added "The stupid idiots on the radio will say it's climate change of course". I changed the subject, chicken that I am JayInOz

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