Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 567 LastLast
Results 176 to 210 of 232

Thread: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

  1. #176
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    58,661

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Nah, they're not even a step away--they are there. Remember Onan?

    Tom
    That you have to impregnate your dead brother's widow?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  2. #177
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Wrocław, Poland
    Posts
    13,086

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    That you have to impregnate your dead brother's widow?
    That's not the bit I was thinking of...

    But since Onan knew that the offspring would not be his, he spilled his semen on the ground whenever he went in to his brother’s wife, so that he would not give offspring to his brother.
    But actually, it looks like the context is different from what I had always believed. I always thought Onan's "sin" was masturbation--turns out it was coitus interruptus. You learn something every day... I guess old Jehovah really is against birth control, even ineffective birth control.

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

  3. #178
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    61,893

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Durnik View Post
    . . . it is entirely about controlling women.
    This is mostly mistaken, (and that very partial quote doesn't even come close to demonstrating the point.) Again, while I disagree entirely with those who want to make abortion illegal, 'controlling women' is not the main point at all, although it's a side-effect that they're OK with. They honestly believe that the fetus is morally equivalent to a baby, and a lot of them are women. This is not propaganda, it's really what they think. I disagree, obviously.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  4. #179
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Wrocław, Poland
    Posts
    13,086

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    This is mostly mistaken, (and that very partial quote doesn't even come close to demonstrating the point.) Again, while I disagree entirely with those who want to make abortion illegal, 'controlling women' is not the main point at all, although it's a side-effect that they're OK with. They honestly believe that the fetus is morally equivalent to a baby, and a lot of them are women. This is not propaganda, it's really what they think. I disagree, obviously.
    Though to be fair, I think that for at least some Republican legislators, the issue may well be controlling women (though they are probably only subliminally aware of that, as with their racist tendencies). When I say it's not about controlling women, I mean the average person on the street who opposes abortion rights.

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

  5. #180
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    61,893

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Likely right. Some of that probably, and retaining old-time social norms about gender roles.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  6. #181
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    n.c. tn
    Posts
    9,985

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    ... retaining old-time social norms about gender roles.
    which includes controlling women.

    At all levels, barring maybe 4 or 5 (I'm being generous) sincere people, that's what this is. Most of the people claiming a fertilized egg - in a womans body - is a person, refuse to acknowledge a living, breathing, speaking adult not of their cultural genetic makeup is a person. It is unreasonable to ignore that.

    When someone shows you who they are, believe them. To allow them to claim a high ground they obviously don't earn is to allow them to continue the evil.

    though they are probably only subliminally aware of that, as with their racist tendencies.
    TBH, I suspect most people are but 'subliminally aware' of their beliefs and where they come from. While (at least some) Buddhism encourages introspection/awareness/self awareness, xtianity specifically discourages it. Instead, followers are told what to imagine is real/true.

    yes, that is an unpopular view.. esp in an xtian culture.
    Last edited by Durnik; 08-08-2022 at 03:58 PM.

  7. #182
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Pompano Beach, FLorida
    Posts
    1,240

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    You miss the point. Other people driving cars puts a woman at nearly the same risk as a pregnancy does. You are arguing that a pregnant woman is entitled to kill the "human being" (as anti-abortion people see it) that is threatening her safety.

    You say the difference between pregnancy and driving is consent--
    You're making the false assumption that once consent is given, it is permanent. The difference between a guest and a trespasser is consent, that can be revoked at any time. The same goes for sex vs rape. When the person giving consent, revokes that consent, it becomes a crime to forcibly remain or continue.

    And again, driving down the street is not the same as being forced to drive down the street against your will.

    Remember that about 60 to 80% of all conceptions that end in abortion. The medically accurate term for a miscarriage, since there is no medical difference between a miscarriage and an induced abortion. At least none that could be proven by any medical standard. So we're talking about the majority of the female population being possibly charged for a felony due to uncontrolled circumstances.

    This is why abortion laws are simply a way to control women. The argument that it has anything to do with the health or well being of the unborn is shown to be a lie by the complete opposition to any policy that might improve the odds of a healthy birth, or raising of a child. But it does give a way to throw women in jail.

  8. #183
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    58,661

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvida View Post
    You're making the false assumption that once consent is given, it is permanent. The difference between a guest and a trespasser is consent, that can be revoked at any time. The same goes for sex vs rape. When the person giving consent, revokes that consent, it becomes a crime to forcibly remain or continue.

    And again, driving down the street is not the same as being forced to drive down the street against your will.

    Remember that about 60 to 80% of all conceptions that end in abortion. The medically accurate term for a miscarriage, since there is no medical difference between a miscarriage and an induced abortion. At least none that could be proven by any medical standard. So we're talking about the majority of the female population being possibly charged for a felony due to uncontrolled circumstances.

    This is why abortion laws are simply a way to control women. The argument that it has anything to do with the health or well being of the unborn is shown to be a lie by the complete opposition to any policy that might improve the odds of a healthy birth, or raising of a child. But it does give a way to throw women in jail.
    I was with you until that last paragraph.
    Our laws are a balancing act that considers the well-being of the mother at all stages of the pregnancy, with the well-being of a fetus that is viable postpartum.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  9. #184
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Seattle, WA USA
    Posts
    16,406

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvida View Post
    This is why abortion laws are simply a way to control women. The argument that it has anything to do with the health or well being of the unborn is shown to be a lie by the complete opposition to any policy that might improve the odds of a healthy birth, or raising of a child. But it does give a way to throw women in jail.


    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    I was with you until that last paragraph.

    Our laws are a balancing act that considers the well-being of the mother at all stages of the pregnancy, with the well-being of a fetus that is viable postpartum.

    I believe he's referring to American anti-abortion laws,-- near total prohibition, inane requirements on abortion clinics that other facilities doing in-house outpatient surgeries don't have comply with, etc. -- rather than reasonable regulation of abortion.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  10. #185
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    the hills
    Posts
    67,191

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    I was with you until that last paragraph.
    Our laws are a balancing act that considers the well-being of the mother at all stages of the pregnancy, with the well-being of a fetus that is viable postpartum.
    Here the states with strictest abortion bans the fetal and maternal outcomes are the worst.

  11. #186
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    58,661

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    I believe he's referring to American anti-abortion laws,-- near total prohibition, inane requirements on abortion clinics that other facilities doing in-house outpatient surgeries don't have comply with, etc. -- rather than reasonable regulation of abortion.
    It is the "controlling women" that was a step too far. Being totally uncaring about the mother's well-being I will accept, but not "controlling"
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  12. #187
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Hills of Vermont, USA
    Posts
    45,061

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    It is the "controlling women" that was a step too far. Being totally uncaring about the mother's well-being I will accept, but not "controlling"
    Maybe not all - but many believe "the poor little things" just aren't smart enough to figure out anything without a man telling her what to do.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  13. #188
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Gulf Islands B.C.
    Posts
    4,058

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Maybe not all - but many believe "the poor little things" just aren't smart enough to figure out anything without a man telling her what to do.
    Funny, I was actually going to say the same. But likely aimed at the opposite side. Some here seem to think that women aren’t humans with all the complexities that come with being human, and want them them to be only perfect little angels only sullied by the actions of men, and not by their own choices and actions.

  14. #189
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    82,478

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    Ok, then I ask you the same question I asked David G (who sidestepped it). Where is your line? Are you ok with a non necessary abortion in the last week of a term? If no, how far back is that line of “human rights”? If yes, then I’m afraid we have no common ground. You are a part of society, and have an input with your voting choices, whether you want to or not.
    I didn't 'sidestep' the question. Instead, I disagreed with your framing of the issue, and gave a more nuanced (and, I believe, more accurate) answer to an issue that I'd argue you are viewing too simplistically.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  15. #190
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Gulf Islands B.C.
    Posts
    4,058

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    I didn't 'sidestep' the question. Instead, I disagreed with your framing of the issue, and gave a more nuanced (and, I believe, more accurate) answer to an issue that I'd argue you are viewing too simplistically.
    The question was posed as it was for a reason. By changing the “framing”, you sidestepped it. That, I’m afraid, is blatantly obvious, no matter how you attempt to justify it to yourself.

    You didn’t want to answer, because by answering you open yourself to criticism for either being anti abortion to some degree, or barbaric. I don’t mind that you didn’t want to answer, but just be honest and say you don’t want to.
    Last edited by Decourcy; 08-08-2022 at 10:50 PM.

  16. #191
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,485

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvida View Post
    This is why abortion laws are simply a way to control women. The argument that it has anything to do with the health or well being of the unborn is shown to be a lie by the complete opposition to any policy that might improve the odds of a healthy birth, or raising of a child. But it does give a way to throw women in jail.
    ???

    Roe v. Wade was abortion law, grounded as fundamentally as can be, in the Constitution's guarantee of liberty. The supreme law. How was it a lie, etc.? It didn't deal with "policy that might improve the odds of a healthy birth, or raising of a child."

    I think you mean laws that restrict the right, i.e. statutes. What you say is true of many of them.
    I'm not leaving.

    -- Mike Pence

  17. #192
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    82,478

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    The question was posed as it was for a reason. By changing the “framing”, you sidestepped it. That, I’m afraid, is blatantly obvious, no matter how you attempt to justify it to yourself.

    You didn’t want to answer, because by answering you open yourself to criticism for either being anti abortion to some degree, or barbaric. I don’t mind that you didn’t want to answer, but just be honest and say you don’t want to.
    Your insisting on the framing you do is simply incorrect. Not useful as far as I can see.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  18. #193
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Gulf Islands B.C.
    Posts
    4,058

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Your insisting on the framing you do is simply incorrect. Not useful as far as I can see.
    It. Was. My. Question.
    I get to frame it. The fact that you don’t see that says a lot about why your interactions here go the way they do.
    You avoided my question, asked yourself your own question, and now insist that your question was the correct and useful one.



    And you still claim you didn’t sidestep? Well, at least you made me laugh, so there’s that.

  19. #194
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    82,478

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    It. Was. My. Question.
    I get to frame it. The fact that you don’t see that says a lot about why your interactions here go the way they do.
    You avoided my question, asked yourself your own question, and now insist that your question was the correct and useful one.

    And you still claim you didn’t sidestep? Well, at least you made me laugh, so there’s that.
    I'm glad I could provide some entertainment.

    But you left one small detail out of your synopsis.

    Of course you get to frame your question the way you like.

    AND... of course I get to reject your framing as unhelpful, and reframe the question in a way I consider more productive to discourse.

    Or are you suggesting that in any debate we are required to accept the way others frame the issue?
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  20. #195
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Gulf Islands B.C.
    Posts
    4,058

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    I'm glad I could provide some entertainment.

    But you left one small detail out of your synopsis.

    Of course you get to frame your question the way you like.

    AND... of course I get to reject your framing as unhelpful, and reframe the question in a way I consider more productive to discourse.

    Or are you suggesting that in any debate we are required to accept the way others frame the issue?
    You don’t have to answer a question I pose if you don’t want to. But don’t sidestep it, answer a different question and then insist that you didn’t sidestep.

    Just be honest and say you don’t want to answer. Easy and honest.

  21. #196
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    82,478

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    You don’t have to answer a question I pose if you don’t want to. But don’t sidestep it, answer a different question and then insist that you didn’t sidestep.

    Just be honest and say you don’t want to answer. Easy and honest.
    You insist on 'sidestep'. I insist that reframing in a more nuanced, more productive fashion is not only not sidestepping, it is taking things to the next level. And you want to call me 'dishonest' off of that? gtfoh.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  22. #197
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Wrocław, Poland
    Posts
    13,086

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvida View Post
    And again, driving down the street is not the same as being forced to drive down the street against your will.
    I think you feel too strongly about your views on this to follow the logic. About 69.5% of all pregnancies are the result of consensual sex, without an unintended failure of birth control. That's not "against your will."

    As for this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvida View Post
    Remember that about 60 to 80% of all conceptions that end in abortion. The medically accurate term for a miscarriage, since there is no medical difference between a miscarriage and an induced abortion. At least none that could be proven by any medical standard. So we're talking about the majority of the female population being possibly charged for a felony due to uncontrolled circumstances.
    I haven't heard any efforts to charge a woman with abortion for suffering a miscarriage. Nor have I heard any laws intended for such a purpose. If that does happen, it would be quite obviously wrong, and cruel. But it doesn't really change the fact that your argument that people should have the right to kill anyone who puts them at risk (fetuses, other drivers, etc.) with impunity, for "self-defense," is ludicrous.

    For example, the logging industry has a death rate of 111/100,000 workers. It's clearly far more risky than being pregnant (death rate 17.4/100,000). By your logic, if I'm a lumberjack and my boss tells me to do something that dangerous, I can kill him. In self defense.

    Ludicrous.

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

  23. #198
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Gulf Islands B.C.
    Posts
    4,058

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    You insist on 'sidestep'. I insist that reframing in a more nuanced, more productive fashion is not only not sidestepping, it is taking things to the next level. And you want to call me 'dishonest' off of that? gtfoh.
    Taking a question and changing it to be something more palatable to yourself and easier for yourself to answer is quite literally what sidestepping is.

    Your pseudo intellectual language doesn’t disguise that at all.

  24. #199
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,797

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    Taking a question and changing it to be something more palatable to yourself and easier for yourself to answer is quite literally what sidestepping is.

    Your pseudo intellectual language doesn’t disguise that at all.
    You are wasting your time with David G. He never answers questions - only asks them.

  25. #200
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    82,478

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    Taking a question and changing it to be something more palatable to yourself and easier for yourself to answer is quite literally what sidestepping is.

    Your pseudo intellectual language doesn’t disguise that at all.
    Changing? Yes.

    Something more palatable? Nope... just something more relevant.

    Easier to answer? No, I'd call that one a wash.

    Sidestepping involved avoiding a topic. I did not attempt to avoid it, but rather addressed it in a way I see as more germane to the discussion. I get that you've latched onto something and can't see beyond it (are you taking lessons from bbbbbbys?) but you are mischaracterizing my comments.

    You really need to work on the skill of shifting from Type1 (reactive) thinking... to Type2 (reflective). Your lack is showing thru.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  26. #201
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,797

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Changing? Yes.

    Something more palatable? Nope... just something more relevant.

    Easier to answer? No, I'd call that one a wash.

    Sidestepping involved avoiding a topic. I did not attempt to avoid it, but rather addressed it in a way I see as more germane to the discussion. I get that you've latched onto something and can't see beyond it (are you taking lessons from bbbbbbys?) but you are mischaracterizing my comments.

    You really need to work on the skill of shifting from Type1 (reactive) thinking... to Type2 (reflective). Your lack is showing thru.
    You make my point - just give the guy a straightforward answer instead of deflecting.

  27. #202
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Wrocław, Poland
    Posts
    13,086

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    You make my point
    Es ist immer so, mit einige Leute...

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

  28. #203
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,797

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Es ist immer so, mit einige Leute...

    Tom
    Agreed

  29. #204
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    82,478

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Let me put it another way... my critics here are embracing a Logical Fallacy I run into all too often --

    The Complex Question: The fallacy of demanding a direct answer to a question that cannot be answered withoutfirst analyzing or challenging the basis of the question itself. E.g., "Just answer me "yes" or "no!" Did you thinkyou could get away with plagiarism and not suffer the consequences?" Or, "Why did you rob that bank?" Alsoapplies to situations where one is forced to either accept or reject complex standpoints or propositions containingboth acceptable and unacceptable parts. A corruption of the argument from logos.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  30. #205
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Gulf Islands B.C.
    Posts
    4,058

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Nope. It wasn’t a yes or no.
    Refer to post #165 for the question.

    You are now deflecting.

    Or is that actually the “straw man” you are so fond of labeling others as resorting to?

  31. #206
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Gulf Islands B.C.
    Posts
    4,058

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Keith got it. You seem incapable.

    Try thinking about it a bit harder.

  32. #207
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    29,604

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Es ist immer so, mit einige Leute...

    Tom
    ist es nicht die Wahrheit?

    but not in the manner you might think.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  33. #208
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    82,478

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    Nope. It wasn’t a yes or no.
    Refer to post #165 for the question.

    You are now deflecting.

    Or is that actually the “straw man” you are so fond of labeling others as resorting to?
    Wrong again. The logical fallacy you are falling into is NOT only about yes/no questions. Which is clear from the definition. Reactive again.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  34. #209
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Gulf Islands B.C.
    Posts
    4,058

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Wrong again. The logical fallacy you are falling into is NOT only about yes/no questions. Which is clear from the definition. Reactive again.

    You seem to be a lost cause.

  35. #210
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    82,478

    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    You seem to be a lost cause.
    Well... one of us is.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •