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Thread: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

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    Default Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Kansas Turnout Soars in First Post-Roe Abortion Vote

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...on-ballot-test

    The abortion nazis were losing by about 20 points when AP called it.
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    There is hope.

    Or, they must redouble they vote corruption.
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    A faint glimmer of hope from Kansas of all places.
    Maybe we do have chance of surviving....

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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    It it hadn't been a constitutional amendment this would never have happened. Most states won't be so lucky.
    A society predicated on the assumption that everyone in it should want to get rich is not well situated to become either ethical or imaginative.

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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Kansas Turnout Soars in First Post-Roe Abortion Vote


    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...on-ballot-test

    The abortion nazis were losing by about 20 points when AP called it.

    One post to get to Godwin's law. Impressive!

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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Soon, SCOTUS will decide that binding referendums are unconstitutional.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    A single item vote triggered a 3x spike in turnout vs the last midterm election, and the linked article shows that Kentucky has a ballot measure coinciding with the november midterm... I dunno if Rand Paul is shaking in his boots right now but his reelection is a lot less certain.
    "Visionary" is he who in every egg sees a carbonara.

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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    One post to get to Godwin's law. Impressive!
    How about fascist Christian nationalists?

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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    I'm going to make a political prediction, often a foolish idea.

    Overturning Roe v Wade is going to be an enormous help to the Democrats, the only question being how big. Keeping abortion legal is supported by a considerable majority of voters in most places, and a very large majority of younger people, who have historically voted at lower rates but more left. This is something that will get a lot of young people out to vote. And it's pretty much binary, legal or not, so unlike a lot of economic issues, there's absolutely no problem with the division between the left and center-left. A hardcore supporter of Bernie Sanders and a cautious moderate have exactly the same position; keep abortion legal. And on the right, there's absolutely no room for waffling and obfuscating to make the issue less clear; the religious-right heart of their base won't allow it. If it can happen in Kansas, it can happen almost anywhere.
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    How about fascist Christian nationalists?
    Perhaps. However, have you ever stopped to think that some people see the life growing inside a woman as a human being that is incapable of advocating for itself? Some people see this as murder - especially after there is a heartbeat. That doesn't make them facists or Nazis. Scott Peterson was convicted of a double homicide because her murdered his wife and as a result also murdered the life within her. I don't have the answers and don't oppose abortion though I due have qualms about late term abortions. However, I can absolutely see why some people think it is murder and I do not think most of them are mean controlling fascists. Even progressive Europe does not have the liberal abortion practices that we had in the US.

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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    I'm going to make a political prediction, often a foolish idea.

    Overturning Roe v Wade is going to be an enormous help to the Democrats, the only question being how big. Keeping abortion legal is supported by a considerable majority of voters in most places, and a very large majority of younger people, who have historically voted at lower rates but more left. This is something that will get a lot of young people out to vote. And it's pretty much binary, legal or not, so unlike a lot of economic issues, there's absolutely no problem with the division between the left and center-left. A hardcore supporter of Bernie Sanders and a cautious moderate have exactly the same position; keep abortion legal. And on the right, there's absolutely no room for waffling and obfuscating to make the issue less clear; the religious-right heart of their base won't allow it. If it can happen in Kansas, it can happen almost anywhere.
    On several occasions I have had conservatives admit to me that they didn't want to overturn Roe v Wade, they wanted it as a campaign issue. This was as far back as the mid-1990s. The current batch of SCOTUS judges and congressmen didn't get the memo. Now they are threatening to pile more decisions on top including gay rights and access to voting,, and it's all going to be very unpopular. I think, or at least I hope, they are shooting themselves in the foot by being successful and you know that we have a couple of SCOTUS judges who are more radically "conservative" than we have seen so far.
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Maybe the Dems could stick abortion-related referenda in a lot of states, on the same day as the mid-terms? Even if they are spurious they will do the trick.

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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Good news. Now we have to figure out what to do with Arizona letting one person decide who will be POTUS, regardless of how the people vote.

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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson
    I'm going to make a political prediction, often a foolish idea.

    Overturning Roe v Wade is going to be an enormous help to the Democrats, the only question being how big.
    Heather Cox Richardson in this morning's Letter from an American wrote: "It appears the dog has caught the car."
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    Heather Cox Richardson in this morning's Letter from an American wrote: "It appears the dog has caught the car."
    Here's more of it. She's very good. Source.

    August 2, 2022 (Tuesday)

    Today, voters in Kansas overwhelmingly rejected an amendment to their state constitution that would have stripped it of protections for abortion rights. With 86% of the vote in, 62% of voters supported abortion protections; 37% wanted them gone. That spread is astonishing. Kansas voters had backed Trump in 2020; Republicans had arranged for the referendum to fall on the day of a primary, which traditionally attracts higher percentages of hard-line Republicans; and they had written the question so that a “yes” vote would remove abortion protections and a “no” would leave them in place. Then, today, a political action committee sent out texts that lied about which vote was which.

    Still, voters turned out to protect abortion rights in such unexpectedly high numbers it suggests a sea change.

    It appears the dog has caught the car, as so many of us noted when the Supreme Court handed down the Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health decision on June 24. Since 1972, even before the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision, Republican politicians have attracted the votes of evangelicals and traditionalists who didn’t like the idea of women’s rights by promising to end abortion. But abortion rights have always had strong support. So politicians said they were “pro-life” without ever really intending to overturn Roe v. Wade. The Dobbs decision explicitly did just that and has opened the door to draconian laws that outlaw abortion with no exceptions, promptly showing us the horror of a pregnant 10-year-old and hospitals refusing abortion care during miscarriages. Today, in the privacy of the voting booth, voters did exactly as Republican politicians feared they would if Roe were overturned.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 08-03-2022 at 09:40 AM.
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    One post to get to Godwin's law. Impressive!
    godwin suspended his law.

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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Perhaps. However, have you ever stopped to think that some people see the life growing inside a woman as a human being that is incapable of advocating for itself? Some people see this as murder - especially after there is a heartbeat. That doesn't make them facists or Nazis. Scott Peterson was convicted of a double homicide because her murdered his wife and as a result also murdered the life within her. I don't have the answers and don't oppose abortion though I due have qualms about late term abortions. However, I can absolutely see why some people think it is murder and I do not think most of them are mean controlling fascists. Even progressive Europe does not have the liberal abortion practices that we had in the US.
    I could agree with you if those same people showed the same compassion for that individual after birth. The cynic in me, however, sees those people as simply trying to use the unborn fetus as a point of control. I must admit that my own bias quite the opposite. There are quite a number of upright bipedal hominid types driving around out there who don't meet my criteria for "human".

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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Why doesn't Biden just ratify the ERA and make it the 28th Amendment to the constitution and just be done with it. It's a much better solution than Roe V Wade was.
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Haberland View Post
    He did indeed but in reference to a White Supremacist rally where people were also injured. It was not a global revocation. For that matter wouldn't that be like Galileo suspending the law of gravity....would the apple no longer fall to the ground?

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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh MacD View Post
    I could agree with you if those same people showed the same compassion for that individual after birth. The cynic in me, however, sees those people as simply trying to use the unborn fetus as a point of control. I must admit that my own bias quite the opposite. There are quite a number of upright bipedal hominid types driving around out there who don't meet my criteria for "human".
    OK, that's a fair statement, but you paint all rite to lifers with the same brush and they are not nearly as monolithic as you portray them.

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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Anti-choice actors are reported both in the last few days and (illegally) at the polls spreading the lie that a 'yes' vote was pro-choice. If nothing else, the right-to-coat-hangers lot know that they can't win honestly.

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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Kansas Turnout Soars in First Post-Roe Abortion Vote


    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...on-ballot-test

    The abortion nazis were losing by about 20 points when AP called it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    One post to get to Godwin's law. Impressive!
    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Perhaps. However, have you ever stopped to think that some people see the life growing inside a woman as a human being that is incapable of advocating for itself? Some people see this as murder - especially after there is a heartbeat. That doesn't make them facists or Nazis. Scott Peterson was convicted of a double homicide because her murdered his wife and as a result also murdered the life within her. I don't have the answers and don't oppose abortion though I due have qualms about late term abortions. However, I can absolutely see why some people think it is murder and I do not think most of them are mean controlling fascists. Even progressive Europe does not have the liberal abortion practices that we had in the US.
    I believe that there are a chunk of folks who express that belief. And some of that noise is actually sincere and organic.

    Most is not. Most has been manipulated.

    I'd believe them sincere if, as has been pointed out, their 'love of the sanctity of life' and 'advocating for a fetus growing inside a woman, that is incapable of advocating for itself', held up to scrutiny by comparing it to their other actions and positions. But they don't. That 'love' and 'advocacy' suddenly goes stone cold dead when the fetus becomes an infant/toddler/child. Consistently.

    Because of that disconnect, that inconsistency, I'll say instead that they have fallen prey to the sort of bamboozling efforts that Goebbels would be proud of. Straight-out propaganda... which reveals itself when examined. Facts bedamned. Sincerity bedamned. They bit hard on the 'wedge issue' tactic which allows the bamboozlers to gather and consolidate power... regardless of the wishes of the populace. The tactics of nazis and other gangsters.
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    I believe that there are a chunk of folks who express that belief. And some of that noise is actually sincere and organic.

    Most is not. Most has been manipulated.

    I'd believe them sincere if, as has been pointed out, their 'love of the sanctity of life' and 'advocating for a fetus growing inside a woman, that is incapable of advocating for itself', held up to scrutiny by comparing it to their other actions and positions. But they don't. That 'love' and 'advocacy' suddenly goes stone cold dead when the fetus becomes an infant/toddler/child. Consistently.

    Because of that disconnect, that inconsistency, I'll say instead that they have fallen prey to the sort of bamboozling efforts that Goebbels would be proud of. Straight-out propaganda... which reveals itself when examined. Facts bedamned. Sincerity bedamned. They bit hard on the 'wedge issue' tactic which allows the bamboozlers to gather and consolidate power... regardless of the wishes of the populace. The tactics of nazis and other gangsters.
    So you are saying that 51%, or more, do not have this as a sincere and organic belief? What evidence do you offer to support that conclusion?

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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    So you are saying that 51%, or more, do not have this as a sincere and organic belief? What evidence do you offer to support that conclusion?
    The anti abortion folks often blow smoke when asked about providing child care, but enough of them reveal their true feelings on the issue for you to know where they stand. Here's a good example. Keep looking and you'll find more:

    "Republican Wisconsin Senator Ron Johnson, who opposes greater abortion access, has said that the government shouldn't fund child care.
    "People decide to have families and become parents," Johnson said in a Wednesday interview with WKBT. "That's something they need to consider when they make that choice. I've never really felt it was society's responsibility to take care of other people's children."

    https://www.newsweek.com/anti-aborti...milies-1673414

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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    So you are saying that 51%, or more, do not have this as a sincere and organic belief? What evidence do you offer to support that conclusion?
    I'd offer the OP as evidence.

    But that's not just a naked assertion, nor mere bombast - void of history and experience.

    Indeed, my ability to sense the pulse is rooted in decades (since 1966) of activism. Usually swimming upstream. On the 'right side of history' (he said ever so modestly), but often (at least initially) on the wrong side of public opinion. Vietnam War. Consumer protection & lemon laws. Healthy foods. Fighting corruption in the legislature, and among agency staff. Environmental & climate issues. Literacy as a means of reducing youth recidivism. Salmon habitat, dam removal, & the false 'hatchery' solution. Worker-owned/worker-managed businesses as an alternative to typical corporate employment. Etc. Etc.

    Which made learning to get an accurate grasp not only public opinion, but also of the potential malleability of it, and the way it is trending... key. So I've gotten good at it. And at knowing when I sense the beginning of a trend, when I have no idea, and when a clear direction is evident.

    And I'd also offer a quote from a noted authority, "you paint all rite to lifers with the same brush and they are not nearly as monolithic as you portray them." <G>

    For more definitive data, one of us would have to do some research. But I'm pretty confident of my read - based on my experience.
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    I'd offer the OP as evidence.

    But that's not just a naked assertion, nor mere bombast - void of history and experience.

    Indeed, my ability to sense the pulse is rooted in decades (since 1966) of activism. Usually swimming upstream. On the 'right side of history' (he said ever so modestly), but often (at least initially) on the wrong side of public opinion. Vietnam War. Consumer protection & lemon laws. Healthy foods. Fighting corruption in the legislature, and among agency staff. Environmental & climate issues. Literacy as a means of reducing youth recidivism. Salmon habitat, dam removal, & the false 'hatchery' solution. Worker-owned/worker-managed businesses as an alternative to typical corporate employment. Etc. Etc.

    Which made learning to get an accurate grasp not only public opinion, but also of the potential malleability of it, and the way it is trending... key. So I've gotten good at it. And at knowing when I sense the beginning of a trend, when I have no idea, and when a clear direction is evident.

    And I'd also offer a quote from a noted authority, "you paint all rite to lifers with the same brush and they are not nearly as monolithic as you portray them." <G>

    For more definitive data, one of us would have to do some research. But I'm pretty confident of my read - based on my experience.
    So all this to say you got nothing save for a lifetime of experience?

    As I found, this was also a byproduct of your "sense of the pulse" in the 2016 election......

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    http://www.economist.com/news/leader.../pe/ed/whatnow



    For the party of Lincoln this is a disaster. Mr Trump is disliked so intensely by so many Americans that the damage to the party wrought by his nomination could go far beyond failing to win the White House, to hurting Republicans’ chances in House and Senate races.
    Last edited by Boatbum; 08-03-2022 at 01:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    So all this to say you got nothing save for a lifetime of experience?

    As I found, this was also a byproduct of your "sense of the pulse" in the 2016 election......
    I believe you're being disingenuous.

    I didn't go back and check, but I doubt I offered any sort of endorsement (please do correct me if I'm wrong) of the opinion piece from the Economist. I imagine I was offering it up as data... without further comment. But, admittedly, I hoped they were correct.

    They were, instead, incorrect. At least about that particular election. I have to say, though, that they might have just gotten the timing wrong - in terms of the damage to the Republican party that would arise from nominating Trump. They have unquestionably paid a price. And they may well have set themselves up for paying even more of a price.... as the OP shows, and this thread further illustrates --

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ght=fracturing



    Meantime - here's another example of what I meant when I talked about the R's following Goebbels' 'big lie' approach. False claims about electoral fraud, and mail-in ballots from the local R party, a RWW dingbat group... and the pushback from a (R) elections official. Another example, also, of the fracturing mentioned above --

    'PUT UP OR SHUT UP!!': Lake supervisor angry with Republican Party over voter fraud claims


    https://www.dailycommercial.com/stor...ms/6282877001/
    Last edited by David G; 08-03-2022 at 01:58 PM.
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Maybe the Dems could stick abortion-related referenda in a lot of states, on the same day as the mid-terms? Even if they are spurious they will do the trick.
    Only 23 of the the 50 states allow direct referendum votes on issues proposed by citizens. 49 allow referendum votes proposed by legislatures, but no state without a Democratically-controlled legislature (17 of them vs. 30 under Republican control) would advance a referendum on that issue.

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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    He did indeed but in reference to a White Supremacist rally where people were also injured.
    Oh--so you mean, like the January 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol!

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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    . . . no state without a Democratically-controlled legislature (17 of them vs. 30 under Republican control) would advance a referendum on that issue.
    Although it's a special case, the Kansas legislature has large Republican majorities (29-11 Senate, 86-39 House), and they proposed a referendum to remove protections for legal abortion. Republican-controlled legislatures may not be so ready to do that in the future.
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Although it's a special case, the Kansas legislature has large Republican majorities (29-11 Senate, 86-39 House), and they proposed a referendum to remove protections for legal abortion. Republican-controlled legislatures may not be so ready to do that in the future.
    Yes. My point was that it wouldn't be easy for Democrats to protect abortion rights via referendum votes. I love to see those Republican [long string of expletives] in Kansas hoist with their own petard!

    Schadenfreude, b*tches.

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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    One post to get to Godwin's law. Impressive!
    Typical dishonest RWW claptrap: fasten on one minor element of what's being said; activate offended snowflake mode; raise a manufactured fuss.
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Typical dishonest RWW claptrap: fasten on one minor element of what's being said; activate offended snowflake mode; raise a manufactured fuss.
    And typical David G. Never actually answer the question, adopt an arrogant attitude, and then run off in a huff blaming the other guy. You never answered my question, and you never will - You and Bobby S. have a lot in common.

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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    And typical David G. Never actually answer the question, adopt an arrogant attitude, and then run off in a huff blaming the other guy. You never answered my question, and you never will - You and Bobby S. have a lot in common.
    I offered up a detailed description of the best evidence I have. You are free to simply remain unconvinced. You are free to back up your argument with other data, facts, or cogent logic. But don't say I didn't answer. That's more disingenuous claptrap. My 'arrogance' is well-grounded - both in my background and in your foolishness.
    Last edited by David G; 08-03-2022 at 02:36 PM.
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Perhaps. However, have you ever stopped to think that some people see the life growing inside a woman as a human being that is incapable of advocating for itself? Some people see this as murder - especially after there is a heartbeat. That doesn't make them facists or Nazis. Scott Peterson was convicted of a double homicide because her murdered his wife and as a result also murdered the life within her. I don't have the answers and don't oppose abortion though I due have qualms about late term abortions. However, I can absolutely see why some people think it is murder and I do not think most of them are mean controlling fascists. Even progressive Europe does not have the liberal abortion practices that we had in the US.
    This is the crux of the matter. Given their premises--that an unborn embryo is a human life--the logic of the anti-abortion crowd is unassailable.

    There's a sincere and abiding conflict of interests on this issue. I would argue strongly that such a deep disagreement suggests that caution and non-intervention should be the rule, letting the decision remain--always--an individual one. That way (conventional thinking goes), no one is having someone else's beliefs forced on them.

    But--and it's a huge "but"--if you sincerely believe that abortion involves the taking of human life (and an innocent life that cannot protect itself whatsoever), then that is basically asking one side to tolerate what they see as murder.

    It's a very real dilemma, with plenty of anti-abortion supporters acting in good conscience to do what they believe is morally right. (I'm not talking about activists who use violence or threats against abortion providers--that's terrorism, which is morally indefensible unless you believe that the ends justify the means, and accept that the end is a worthy one).

    However, I'll add that anti-abortion supporters who oppose the things we know reduce abortions--comprehensive sex education and easy access to contraceptives--are wallowing in hypocrisy and failed logic. Those kinds of "anti-abortion, and also anti-things that reduce abortions" people seem focused not on protecting innocent lives, but rather on imposing a set of dogmatic religious principles on everyone else. And that I have a difficult time feeling any empathy toward.

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

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