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Thread: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

  1. #211
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Well... one of us is.
    Yes, and it is you. If you engage Decourcy in a polite and reasonable discussion he is very responsive. You have yet to answer a single question or to be anything but condescending. Surprising from someone that claims to be an educated economist.

  2. #212
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Oooh! a back-handed compliment!

    well-done and predictable.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  3. #213
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Oooh! a back-handed compliment!

    well-done and predictable.
    Maybe you didn't read it fully, there is no attempt at a compliment at all. Did you just wake up from a nap?

  4. #214
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvida View Post
    The state has already stated it's interest in that everyone is entitled to defend themselves. The fetus is an invading organism, and unconsented violation of a persons body, and your argument is that the woman must risk her life for this invasion of her person at great risk of bodily harm.
    No, that's not my argument. Abortion to save the life of the mother right up to delivery day could be legal in a state that otherwise makes abortion a crime in any other circumstance. All abortion laws don't have to be the same. There are 50 states. Generally, the more similarity the better; but the variations can be more or less material.

    But in any case, there has to a line between legal and illegal. It's a binary question that has a binary answer -- yes or no. If it's a case of threat to the mother's life, then to deny abortion is to deny her the right to life, as in, no person shall be deprived of life etc. without due process. According to Roe, that is the basis of the "right to abortion"

    Abortion could be seen as self-defense but I would say it causes as many problems as it solves, and in any case is unnecessary. When does the fetus cease to be an invader? Not until the umbilical cord is cut? Doctrines of self-defense don't have to take account of the "when" question. The relevant moment is when the threat occurs.

    Your position seems to be, the threat continues to exist until the umbilical is cut, or some other moment, not much earlier. But most abortion law schemes are going to be based on treating abortion as a medical procedure, meaning doctors determine the point at which the mother has to be counseled as to an actual threat, i.e. a medical necessity, as opposed to a possible threat. Then, if the mother refuses abortion, or can't get one, it's doctors who have to decide what other medical procedures are necessary.

    In the self-defense model, it's the mother's state of mind, so long as it's "reasonable", that justifies abortion. It's always reasonable if the fetus is always a threat. You might as well have abortion on demand as go down that road.

    A pretty effective way of bringing about a total abortion ban would be a raft of prosecutions for late term abortions, some very late term -- prosecutions which were unsuccessful, because the law had provided beforehand that the fetus is always a threat, regardless of the facts of the particular case. Whereas, under the medical practice model, if anyone were on trial, it would be the doctors, or the unlicensed providers. Which is as it should be. If some shaman puts on his bonnet and signs up the mother for some nuanced ceremonial procedure, and it kills the fetus, that's bad; if it harms the mother, that's bad; but he can be prosecuted for merely signing her up, because we say that abortion is medical, and we license the practice of medicine. The shaman is guilty if he never gets closer to the mother than exchanging e-mails.
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  5. #215
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Nah, they're not even a step away--they are there. Remember Onan?

    Tom

    I'm sure there are people like that along with some who see the "invader" as worthy of removal right up to the moment the mother goes into labor.

  6. #216
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    You GO Kansas.
    David G
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    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

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  7. #217
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    I'm sure there are people like that along with some who see the "invader" as worthy of removal right up to the moment the mother goes into labor.
    Yes, the "removal" is called emergency C section or induced delivery.
    Now stop being silly, do.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  8. #218
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Logic, reason or the law either way is not going to solve this partciular sociological problem. I have little truck with the religious based objections, but I do see that it is not so simple as som seem to think.
    I was fortunate, sex ed was an early starter for me, helped along by being on a farm where sexual behaviour, sometimes quite violent, was a regular occurrence. And everyone knew when not to go near Mr Peel's Jersey bull. What that, and my mum's advice gave me was an awareness of what was involved with a close relationship with a girl. And I was always very careful, successfully so, having determined not to father children at about 11. Many of my contemporaries were not so careful.
    But I cannot countenace anyone imposing their own belief system on anyone else.

  9. #219
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Logic, reason or the law either way is not going to solve this partciular sociological problem.
    Roe v. Wade was the law for fifty years. What was wrong with it?
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  10. #220
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Roe v. Wade was the law for fifty years. What was wrong with it?
    No one turned it into a Federal Law?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  11. #221
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Logic, reason or the law either way is not going to solve this partciular sociological problem. I have little truck with the religious based objections, but I do see that it is not so simple as som seem to think.
    I was fortunate, sex ed was an early starter for me, helped along by being on a farm where sexual behaviour, sometimes quite violent, was a regular occurrence. And everyone knew when not to go near Mr Peel's Jersey bull. What that, and my mum's advice gave me was an awareness of what was involved with a close relationship with a girl. And I was always very careful, successfully so, having determined not to father children at about 11. Many of my contemporaries were not so careful.
    But I cannot countenace anyone imposing their own belief system on anyone else.
    We impose belief systems on other people all the time. Hopefully it’s done with the good of society at heart, but sometimes people have different understandings of “good”. By far the vast majority of people of any belief system believe that what they hold to be true is helpful rather than harmful. There are people who believe that domestic animals should have the same rights as people. Are they right or wrong? They don’t believe what they believe out of wanting to punish animal owners, but out of a feeling that animals have feelings or perhaps “soul” the same as people, and feel that they need someone to advocate for them. Others believe that fetuses are “human” earlier than the majority of society.

    So although I may or may not hold the same belief system, I can understand the motivations of those that wish to impose their beliefs out of a feeling of doing “good”

    You’re right, it’s complicated.

  12. #222
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    We impose belief systems on other people all the time.
    One would think this would be obvious. Laws are based on ideas of right and wrong, which for better or worse are 'belief systems'. Even the basic principle that you shouldn't harm others . . . For much of human history attacking your fellow humans and taking their land and professions was considered admirable, even glorious and heroic. And pretty much everyone agrees you shouldn't kill people; the question here is whether a fetus is included as 'people'. I don't think it should be. Some disagree. That fact that an idea is espoused by some religions doesn't necessarily make it wrong, or not generally applicable.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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  13. #223
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Roe v. Wade was the law for fifty years. What was wrong with it?
    It's is not about right or wrong, its about constitutional vs not constitutional. And that is not always a fixed target. Plessy vs Ferguson was "law" for 58 years but Brown V Board of Education struck it down - and rightfully so. The problem with Roe V Wade was in the majority opinion which focused on right to privacy vs the equal protection clause. It is up to criticism from even liberal judges.

    Ginsburg united these criticisms as early as 1984, saying in a speech at the University of North Carolina that Roe “ventured too far in the change it ordered and presented an incomplete justification for its action.”

  14. #224
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    None of our political parties want abortion as a political issue, so there's a total support for not changing our present laws, which are similar to Roe vs. Wade. The date at which an early born child can be saved without risking severe disabilities is a few weeks past the date an abortion of a pregnancy without complications is allowed.
    Our health care system is required to save an early born child if this can be done without unacceptable risks for severe disabilities. As medical science develops I expect that the date an early born child can be saved will move and eventually be on the wrong side of the date an abortion is allowed. Then we'll have the problem that the hospitals will be obliged to save the fetus they have just aborted. When that happens we'll have some difficult decisions to make, maybe state a definite date for when an unborn child is a human entitled to medical care. I guess that we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. Maybe we can base our decision on more knowledge then.
    Conception and birth are two easily defined criteria for being human, but just because they are easily defined doesn't mean that they are correct. Life is complicated.
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  15. #225
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    It's is not about right or wrong, its about constitutional vs not constitutional. And that is not always a fixed target. Plessy vs Ferguson was "law" for 58 years but Brown V Board of Education struck it down - and rightfully so. The problem with Roe V Wade was in the majority opinion which focused on right to privacy vs the equal protection clause. It is up to criticism from even liberal judges.
    Your constitution is silent on abortion, abortion was not a thing when the Constitution was ratified. So I fail to see how the issue is a constitutional one.

    The issue is a pragmatic one. How much harm is caused by driving women into the hands of backstreet abortionists, or as in the case of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savita_Halappanavar who was denied medical care under the Irish constitutional provisions of the time?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  16. #226
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    No one turned it into a Federal Law?
    Biden needs to ratify the Equal Rights Amendment and add it to the Constitution. This is not a privacy issue its and equal rights issue why is 1/2 of the American population have more medical autonomy and reproductive rights as the other 1/2 of the American population ?
    This post is temporary and my disappear at the discretion of the managment

  17. #227
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal) View Post
    Biden needs to ratify the Equal Rights Amendment and add it to the Constitution. This is not a privacy issue its and equal rights issue why is 1/2 of the American population have more medical autonomy and reproductive rights as the other 1/2 of the American population ?
    So females would finally have the same right to abortion that males have had all along??
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  18. #228
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    So females would finally have the same right to abortion that males have had all along??
    Do you practice being obtuse, or is it a natural knack?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  19. #229
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal) View Post
    Biden needs to ratify the Equal Rights Amendment and add it to the Constitution. This is not a privacy issue its and equal rights issue why is 1/2 of the American population have more medical autonomy and reproductive rights as the other 1/2 of the American population ?
    Aaaaaahhhh Joe.........

    That's not how it works!
    The House and Senate need to enact legislation that amends the constitution, the president then signs it. At that point each state must vote and if 75% of them approve the amendment it becomes a part of the constitution. As you maty recall that is what happened to the ERA in 1972. It got through both houses and was sigend by the president. Unfortunately it only got 35 of the 38 states that were needed.
    Last edited by Boatbum; 08-11-2022 at 09:48 AM.

  20. #230
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    I'd much rather lay in my bunk all freakin day lookin at Youtube videos .

  21. #231
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt View Post
    Meh

    You know, I have watched a few of his Youtubes and found them interesting for a while. But now they are getting to be like Adelle songs....they all sound the same and have gotten boring.

  22. #232
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    Default Re: Roe: you GO Kansas!!!

    According to Associated Press:

    Kansas to recount abortion vote by hand, despite big margin

    TOPEKA, Kan. (AP) — Kansas’ elections director says the state will go along with a request for a hand recount of votes from every county after last week’s decisive statewide vote affirming abortion rights, even though there was a 165,000-vote difference and a recount won’t change the result.

    Melissa Leavitt, of Colby in far western Kansas, requested the recount and declined to comment to reporters Friday evening, citing work obligations. But she said on an online site raising funds for a recount that she had “seen data” about the election. Her post was not more specific, and there is no evidence of significant problems with the election.

    Baseless election conspiracies have circulated widely in the U.S., particularly among supporters of former President Donald Trump, who has repeated false claims that he lost the 2020 election through fraud.

    Kansas law requires Leavitt to post a bond to cover the entire cost of the recount. Bryan Caskey, state elections director for the Kansas secretary of state’s office, said it would be the first recount of the votes on a statewide ballot question in at least 30 years.

    Caskey said the work won’t begin without a guarantee that Leavitt can cover the cost.

    “Normally, they reinforce the Election Day results,” Caskey said about recounts. “We stand by the results and will do the recount.”

    Also seeking a recount is state Sen. Caryn Tyson, who is trailing state Rep. Steven Johnson in the Republican primary for state treasurer by about 400 votes out of nearly 434,000 cast. She is asking for a hand recount in about half the state’s 105 counties.

    Voters last week rejected a proposed amendment to the Kansas Constitution that would have allowed the conservative, Republican-controlled Legislature to further restrict or ban abortion. It failed by 18 percentage points.
    Tell me this will end well?!

    Kansas to recount abortion vote by hand, despite big margin (msn.com)
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