Page 10 of 18 FirstFirst ... 91011 ... LastLast
Results 316 to 350 of 611

Thread: Socialism

  1. #316
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    2 states: NJ and confusion
    Posts
    43,546

    Default Re: Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    That is a very thin argument, especially considering that Medicare is owned and run by government, in contrast to the rest of US health care for profit.
    Are publicly owned roads not a means of production?
    There is a difference, albeit subtle. medicare pays providers. Providers are private. Government pays private companies to build roads. In my previous town, town employees plowed the snow of the roads. In my present town, the town hires private companies to do this, collect trash, etc.

    Does that make the one town socialist and the other not?
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

  2. #317
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    28,769

    Default Re: Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Not true in the slightest, not even of Marx himself.

    You see, he left a large body of work, and his thinking evolved.
    I should have said, the Marxists I have personally met.

  3. #318
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    28,769

    Default Re: Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Yes. Benjamin Franklin didn't call the Post Office socialism. Was he wrong?



    Depends on what type. So let each socialist set forth his self-definition . . . honestly. The responsible thing.




    Since ancient history. Were Neanderthals socialists?



    I could go with at least part of the definition as being "reaction to capitalism". As you say:



    But the reaction to the market fetishists, producing "socialism", has to be reaction to the moral element, because the practical aspects are questions of fact, just like they were all along, i.e. before socialism. What does socialism of any kind add?
    This is getting boring. Of course Franklin never called the post office socialist, the word as we now use it hadn't been invented, and markets had not yet been fetishized to the point where opponents to public enterprises needed a term to condemn them by.

    We don't know enough about the organization of Neanderthal society to know whether their society was what we would now call socialist.

  4. #319
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Kitty Hawk, NC
    Posts
    11,877

    Default Re: Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    That is a very thin argument, especially considering that Medicare is owned and run by government, in contrast to the rest of US health care for profit.
    Are publicly owned roads not a means of production?
    Let's deal with roads first. I did not mention roads. Points to me.

    Medicare does not provide healthcare. It pays for healthcare - providing profits for capitalist businesses, while (re)distributing capitalist profits and taxes. But Medicare could be viewed as an insurer of last resort. The VA - owned by the government, does own hospitals and does provide healthcare services. I would view the VA as socialist. I will not split hairs. 1/2 point each.
    Life is complex.

  5. #320
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Kitty Hawk, NC
    Posts
    11,877

    Default Re: Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    In my previous town, town employees plowed the snow of the roads. In my present town, the town hires private companies to do this, collect trash, etc.

    Does that make the one town socialist and the other not?
    Yes. That is how thin the line is. Or how thin some want to make the line.

    A defining feature of socialism is public ownership of the means of production where the government allocates jobs and basic needs for the entire population are taken care of.
    I think the definition of socialism requires more than just a little bit of ownership.
    Life is complex.

  6. #321
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,243

    Default Re: Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    I think the definition of socialism requires more than just a little bit of ownership.
    Right, charter schools are not socialism even it they use (steal, actually) taxpayers' money.

    Similarly, privatized libraries (as in the FL Villages) are not socialism even if they get some public money.

    Same with privatized water treatment systems (few of which work worth a damn).

    And of course Medicare "Advantage" is a complete scam though they do vacuum up some gummint monies.

    (Why did not the Dems terminate Med Advantage when they had the chance ?? Corporatism is why)

    Socialism means public unions, shared governance, a clear commitment to the greater good, and community engagement.
    Last edited by sandtown; 08-16-2022 at 12:32 AM.

  7. #322
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Kitty Hawk, NC
    Posts
    11,877

    Default Re: Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Socialism means public unions, shared governance, a clear commitment to the greater good, and community engagement.
    A defining feature of socialism is public ownership of the means of production where the government allocates jobs and basic needs for the entire population are taken care of.
    Tomorrow you start work as a janitor. We will deliver your gruel at the end of the day. At least that complies with the definition that was suggested.

    I object to your comments about as much as I would object to any other comments. They sound good on paper. Perhaps not so good in practice.
    Life is complex.

  8. #323
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,484

    Default Re: Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    This is getting boring. Of course Franklin never called the post office socialist, the word as we now use it hadn't been invented, and markets had not yet been fetishized to the point where opponents to public enterprises needed a term to condemn them by.
    Yes, neither he nor the ratifiers would have called socialist, so how is that we can? Meanwhile there are private enterprises, such as ship building, that are founded on private capital. How is it that we can reach into the past and call the post office socialism, regardless of whether the term was in use, but can't call a shipyard capitalist, regardless of whether the term was in use?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    We don't know enough about the organization of Neanderthal society to know whether their society was what we would now call socialist.
    Projecting what we know of stone age humans, the tools were privately produced and owned, the land was owned in common, to the extent the tribe could enforce its claim, and the produce was shared.

    It's like the single drop of blood theory, in slavery. If there's one drop of public ownership, it's socialism.

    Seems to part of the definition is, whatever it is that distinguishes capitalism from socialism, which means it has to be something that socialists wanted something capitalism couldn't offer. What they proposed for that reason is socialism. Which disqalifies the post office.
    I'm not leaving.

    -- Mike Pence

  9. #324
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,484

    Default Re: Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    Many people seem to ignore the "public ownership of the means of production" requirement in that definition of socialism.

    The 3 programs you list are paid for by taxes and not by the benefits of "public ownership". They are not socialism but rather are a means by which the profits of capitalism are (re)distributed.
    Yes, there is also the question of how the revenue produced is distributed. If no revenue is produced, as with roads, are the roads socialist, only because they are publicly owned? They are built by state agencies that consume massive amounts of resources, without actually earning anything in the market.

    The money to fund the roads came from capitalist production. Socialist enterprises that can produce profit could contribute. But that would be a very small subset of socialist enterprises. Certainly not the post office.

    As you say, how are the profits distributed? A socialist enterprise could hold them, to defray costs, including new means of production. Or give them to the state, or to the people. A capitalist enterprise can do all of that. The difference is the private decision making as to what to do with the profits.
    I'm not leaving.

    -- Mike Pence

  10. #325
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,243

    Default Re: Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    I object to your comments about as much as I would object to any other comments. They sound good on paper. Perhaps not so good in practice.
    The gummint allocates jobs ?? Straw man alert.

  11. #326
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,243

    Default Re: Socialism

    The Inca empire was socialist in important ways - but not in all ways.

    Arguing over labels is neither productive nor interesting.

  12. #327
    Join Date
    May 2022
    Location
    sweden
    Posts
    186

    Default Re: Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post

    The money to fund the roads came from capitalist production. Socialist enterprises that can produce profit could contribute. But that would be a very small subset of socialist enterprises. Certainly not the post office.

    As you say, how are the profits distributed? A socialist enterprise could hold them, to defray costs, including new means of production. Or give them to the state, or to the people. A capitalist enterprise can do all of that. The difference is the private decision making as to what to do with the profits.
    Interesting. Bio-n-tech based in a small county in Germany, has, due to its covid vaccination profits, given around a billion dollars in local taxes. This has allowed the the county to pay off all its existing debts, and allow further electrification of its public transport.

    I wont enter into the debate of whether that is socialism or not, but it is a good example of taxation going to good use.

  13. #328
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Wrocław, Poland
    Posts
    13,082

    Default Re: Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Yes, neither he nor the ratifiers would have called socialist, so how is that we can?
    No one in the prehistorical Clovis hunter-gatherer communities would have called a large shaggy member of Elephantidae a "mammoth," so how is it that we can?

    See how silly that is?

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

  14. #329
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,243

    Default Re: Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    The VA - owned by the government, does own hospitals and does provide healthcare services. I would view the VA as socialist. I will not split hairs. 1/2 point each.
    The VA is a great example of why we need more socialism.

    They get better outcomes at lower cost than either Medicare or private insurance.

    The for-profit health care and pharmacological systems are run by predatory murderous thieves.

    The VA's great advantage is that they have no incentive to over-treat, over-test or over-prescribe.

    And their medical records system is really good.

    (That being said, I'm fighting with them now over travel reimbursement)

  15. #330
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    28,769

    Default Re: Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Yes, neither he nor the ratifiers would have called socialist, so how is that we can? Meanwhile there are private enterprises, such as ship building, that are founded on private capital. How is it that we can reach into the past and call the post office socialism, regardless of whether the term was in use, but can't call a shipyard capitalist, regardless of whether the term was in use?



    Projecting what we know of stone age humans, the tools were privately produced and owned, the land was owned in common, to the extent the tribe could enforce its claim, and the produce was shared.

    It's like the single drop of blood theory, in slavery. If there's one drop of public ownership, it's socialism.

    Seems to part of the definition is, whatever it is that distinguishes capitalism from socialism, which means it has to be something that socialists wanted something capitalism couldn't offer. What they proposed for that reason is socialism. Which disqalifies the post office.
    We can call it socialist because we now possess the vocabulary to do so. Honestly, are you reading my posts? Did you read Tom's posts about mammoths?

    I grew up near a Navy shipyard, across the river in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. I now live near another Navy shipyard in Bremerton. There is a long history of public ownership of shipyards and armories. They exist because private enterprises weren't able to provide the service, and if you read my link on mythmaking and manufacturing, you have a pretty good idea why.

    I have referred to things like the post office and post roads as 'what we would now call socialism.' Why do you object to this?

  16. #331
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,243

    Default Re: Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    \ I have referred to things like the post office and post roads as 'what we would now call socialism.' Why do you object to this?
    because bad faith . .

    Would he also argue that private for-profit businesses prior to 1850 (when the word was coined) were not capitalist ??

    what a silly argument

  17. #332
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Kitty Hawk, NC
    Posts
    11,877

    Default Re: Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    The VA is a great example of why we need more socialism.

    They get better outcomes at lower cost than either Medicare or private insurance.

    The for-profit health care and pharmacological systems are run by predatory murderous thieves.

    The VA's great advantage is that they have no incentive to over-treat, over-test or over-prescribe.

    And their medical records system is really good.
    The VA designed and built a hospital and then found that the medical machines would not fit in the rooms. But that can happen to anyone. And some find the process of getting appropriate treatment there less than satisfactory. But that seems to be wide spread in the US.

    I like the pharmaceutical example. The question becomes: Can a socialist government pay people to innovate and produce what is needed? Or can those who innovate live off of their assets and demand outrageous sums to innovate?

    While some people like roads, I think electric cars and charging is another area where one can ask questions about is socialism or capitalism a better solution. Certainly, Tesla made a good decision to build a charging infrastructure to sell cars. Tesla appears to have made better decisions than other charging station businesses as measured by reliability and up time. It is not clear that socialism would have been as good as Tesla. (I am sure other countries have done much better than the US.) And the government is giving money to those who are building charging stations - socialism.

    Of course, we can look at broadband and government money and the rural urban differences. And get some idea of if socialism is effective.

    Lots of stuff we can look at and make rational comments about.
    Life is complex.

  18. #333
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    61,890

    Default Re: Socialism

    Right. And before Linnaeus came up with the category lepidoptera, there were no butterflies. Page after page after page arguing about the definitions of words; how enlightening.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 08-16-2022 at 10:06 PM.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  19. #334
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,243

    Default Re: Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Page after page after page arguing about the definitions of words; how enlightening.
    Few things more annoying than a pedantic libertarian,

  20. #335
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,243

    Default Re: Socialism

    As I explain it to people, Medicare in the US is socialist - govt. managed and funded using private contractors and facilities - very similar to Canada.

    The VA is communist - like the UK - facilities, research all are directly owned and run by the govt. - most workers are govt. employees.

  21. #336
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Kitty Hawk, NC
    Posts
    11,877

    Default Re: Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    As I explain it to people, Medicare in the US is socialist - govt. managed and funded using private contractors and facilities - very similar to Canada.
    A defining feature of socialism is public ownership of the means of production where the government allocates jobs and basic needs for the entire population are taken care of.
    That does not fit the definition that WI-Tom gave. In fact, it makes the government look a lot like any heath care insurer - capitalists.

    I will add some confusion by looking up the difference between socialism and communism.

    The main difference is that under communism, most property and economic resources are owned and controlled by the state (rather than individual citizens); under socialism, all citizens share equally in economic resources as allocated by a democratically-elected government.
    Life is complex.

  22. #337
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    82,475

    Default Re: Socialism

    I hereby nominate this one for the 'Lamest Thread of 2022' award.

    We'll circle back around and do individual awards later...

    <sigh>
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  23. #338
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,484

    Default Re: Socialism

    The analogy fails.

    The definition of socialism is moral taxonomy, not biological. Biological taxonomy has the purpose of distinguishing one life form from another, for purposes of building of a system of identification of things that exist regardless of the intention of the creatures, and of course of human intention. In political economy, human intention is the decisive criterion, a matter of human choice, leading to conscious human action, as opposed to the definition of being elephant A or elephant B. Elephants can't decide to be socialist, or Zoroastrian.

    A definition that implies that one can be an unconscious socialist, because the Post Office is socialist, names hundreds of millions of people "socialists" who would deny it, even if you explained it to them. Unlike telling a mammoth you have a new name for him.
    I'm not leaving.

    -- Mike Pence

  24. #339
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    82,475

    Default Re: Socialism

    Y'all can stop now. I think you've won the award going away...
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  25. #340
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,243

    Default Re: Socialism

    Methinks OR is desperate to not acknowledge that Scandinavia is socialist and works just fine.

    As it happens my young dock mate got back from a Swedish sailing adventure a few days ago and I had a brief chat with him . .

    Jokingly (as is my want) I suggested to him that after his time there, he must now be a socialist . . .

    He looked me right in the eye and said, "Absolutely, yes".

  26. #341
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cantão - Brazil
    Posts
    16,747

    Default Re: Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Page after page after page arguing about the definitions of words; how enlightening.
    That's what they do. That's all they do.

  27. #342
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cantão - Brazil
    Posts
    16,747

    Default Re: Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Methinks OR is desperate to not acknowledge that Scandinavia is socialist and works just fine.
    Once again, for the slower ones:

    Socialism (/'soʊʃəlɪsm/) is a left-wing to far-left[1][2] economic philosophy and movement encompassing a range of economic systems characterized by the dominance of social ownership[3] of the means of production[4][5] as opposed to private ownership.[6][7][5]

  28. #343
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    61,890

    Default Re: Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    That's what they do. That's all they do.
    Who's 'they'? The slimy chimps?


    (Note - 'slimy chimps' comes from an excellent kid's book, 'The One and Only Ivan', written from the point of view of a gorilla. 'Slimy chimps' is a derogatory term for us used by gorillas, referring to sweat on hairless skin.)
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  29. #344
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,484

    Default Re: Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    Yes. That is how thin the line is. Or how thin some want to make the line.
    But to what purpose? We don't call the VA socialism . . . so what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    I think the definition of socialism requires more than just a little bit of ownership.
    Every government in history has been socialist, with a definition that broad.
    I'm not leaving.

    -- Mike Pence

  30. #345
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,484

    Default Re: Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Methinks OR is desperate to not acknowledge that Scandinavia is socialist and works just fine.
    According to you, the US is socialist, so what's the diff?

    What is their definition of socialist?
    I'm not leaving.

    -- Mike Pence

  31. #346
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,484

    Default Re: Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Once again, for the slower ones:
    Socialism is a

    1. left-wing to far-left

    2. economic philosophy and movement

    3. characterized by the dominance

    4. of social ownership of the means of production

    5. as opposed to private ownership.

    A philosophy and movement for the purpose of bringing about the dominance. I mean, if you just set up the Post Office and then quit, how serious is your socialism?
    I'm not leaving.

    -- Mike Pence

  32. #347
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cantão - Brazil
    Posts
    16,747

    Default Re: Socialism

    Thank you, Ozzy!

  33. #348
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,484

    Default Re: Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Thank you, Ozzy!
    You bet. Don't need a revolution just to have a post office. Skip the tear gas and bayonets altogether.
    I'm not leaving.

    -- Mike Pence

  34. #349
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    58,654

    Default Re: Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    You bet. Don't need a revolution just to have a post office. Skip the tear gas and bayonets altogether.
    True dat.
    All you need for Socialism is politicians with a strong Moral Compass.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  35. #350
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,243

    Default Re: Socialism

    Almost every government in history has been a MIX of private property and collective/social property.

    Even North Korea and Cuba have private sectors.

    The real question is what that mix should be.

    See, not so hard is it ??

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •