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Thread: Will we ever be independent from religion?

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    John, you are too easily offended. As a Catholic, I would not think twice of participating in a Jewish prayer. If someone says a satanic prayer, I would simply refrain.

    As for the constitution, it does not expressly guarantee anyone the right to an abortion, or social security, or health care, or a roof over their heads. It was only a matter of time before Roe v Wade came back because it was law made by the court. It is now time for us to pass the laws that the legislature ran from. You are blaming people who think differently from you because they think differently from you when you should be blaming the politicians who failed to pass the laws that would still be standing.
    I do refrain. It is, however, disrespectful for one to assume everyone in the room believes as they do.

    The politicians who fail to pass the laws are driven by their beliefs, not our constitution. Is that not the problem?
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by stromborg View Post
    Much like guns, we seem to be awash in religions in this country. The question is not will we ever be free of religion but will enough of those who believe in one myth ever be willing to coexist with those who don't believe in the same myth that we can get along?

    I try to follow this:


    But that doesn't seem to work for the conservative monotheists who are currently giving the rest of you believers a bad name.
    Unlikely, as it seems those who believe think they have the only true faith.

    One of our counties still has blue laws. Seems to me a store owner ought to be able to open whenever he wishes.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    I do refrain. It is, however, disrespectful for one to assume everyone in the room believes as they do.
    John, you can always vote with your feet.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    The politicians who fail to pass the laws are driven by their beliefs, not our constitution. Is that not the problem?
    No, that is a democracy where you disagree with them and their motivation. Argue your point. Vote your beliefs. The United States is a construct that is always being built. The building is not based on a dead document, but on a living one. Your beliefs disagree with their beliefs? Fine. Vote.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    Anyone remember Stewart Brand's observation that " We ARE as gods, and we might as well get good at it"?
    Gerard>
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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerarddm View Post
    Anyone remember Stewart Brand's observation that " We ARE as gods, and we might as well get good at it"?
    Yes. And Heinlein's 'Stranger...' -- "Though Art God".
    David G
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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    I'll say it again: Religion is not one thing, and it varies as much as people do, or maybe even mammals.

    I'm up in northern Minnesota on an island, no wifi and pretty dodgy cell phone reception, so I'm not going to post hardly at all this week.
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    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    Being sentinent beings aware of the limitations of life and not happy or afraid of that there will always be hope of a future extension somewhere.
    And seemingly a desire to dictate what version of an afterlife you will accept. Hence religions.

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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    The politicians who fail to pass the laws are driven by their beliefs, not our constitution. Is that not the problem?
    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    No, that is a democracy where you disagree with them and their motivation. Argue your point. Vote your beliefs. The United States is a construct that is always being built. The building is not based on a dead document, but on a living one. Your beliefs disagree with their beliefs? Fine. Vote.
    I agree with CWSmith. Much of government is based on beliefs. While much of those beliefs are not mine, there are processes to effect change.

    Religions have a long history of instilling similar beliefs in groups. So do political parties. And then we have the Democrats.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Depends on the religion. Being a Christian or a Jew didn't mean you had to kill every Roman you encountered.
    “All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?”
    I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned


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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    According to the last census, 40% of Australians stated no religion.
    However, given there are people who seriously believe the world is flat, I think we have Buckley's chance of getting rid of religion.
    I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned


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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    I agree Gary, the prospect of nothing scares most people, and the richer and more influential they are the more it scares them.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    I'll say it again: Religion is not one thing, and it varies as much as people do, or maybe even mammals.

    I'm up in northern Minnesota on an island, no wifi and pretty dodgy cell phone reception, so I'm not going to post hardly at all this week.
    That's true. Trouble is, based on religiously inclined people I've known over my life, each one believes they have the one, true, religion. Most want to sell me their product. ALL are very poor salesmen, at least in their efforts to sell me.

    I have no problem with religious beliefs until they are forced upon me. I don't mind someone saying 'grace' before a meal, but it is nice to be asked, rather than assume no one minds.

    The fact is that in today's USA, our high court is making rulings based more on their religion than on our constitution. The GOP preaches LESS government in our lives as it puts MORE government into our lives, and much of that government they put into our lives is based upon their faith.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    I agree with CWSmith. Much of government is based on beliefs. While much of those beliefs are not mine, there are processes to effect change.

    Religions have a long history of instilling similar beliefs in groups. So do political parties. And then we have the Democrats.
    Galileo was right. The 'church' was wrong. That deserves thought.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    I'll say it again: Religion is not one thing, and it varies as much as people do, or maybe even mammals.
    And again, tho it takes many forms, religon is one thing: control of the masses thru association & idea reinforcent - which is where the danger to our social system's growth toward rationality comes in.


    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    I'm up in northern Minnesota on an island, no wifi and pretty dodgy cell phone reception, so I'm not going to post hardly at all this week.
    hmm.. taken literally, does that mean what I think you meant? (-:

    Regardless, enjoy the beauty!

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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    ^ . . . . and be sure to follow the quotation in David G's signature line . . . . ( see post # 40 above to refresh your memory )



    Rick
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  16. #51
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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    Looks like 'they' are just getting started....

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/05/o...tionalism.html

    Christian Nationalists Are Excited About What Comes Next

    (and yes.... I know how much you love my C/P's... but I'm outta freebies....)
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Durnik View Post
    And again, tho it takes many forms, religon is one thing: control of the masses thru association & idea reinforcent -
    Thank you, Herr Marx. Seriously? That's certainly all too common, but claiming that's all relion is just silly. Counter examples are trivially easy. And sorry about the double negative. Hell with it, I'm going sailing. :-)
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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    That's true. Trouble is, based on religiously inclined people I've known over my life, each one believes they have the one, true, religion. Most want to sell me their product. ALL are very poor salesmen, at least in their efforts to sell me.
    I am sure you believe in your product. I am sure you think others should buy into your product. But you are less of a salesman than those who sell their religion.

    But I could say the same for most people. Including myself. We will never be free from those who want to sell their beliefs.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    So let me get this straight, a kid named Jesus who used to hang around the temple to hear the Rabis BS, got the idea to pattern his life somewhat along the lines of the Rabbis' BS, even to the extent getting himself in dutch with the Roman honcho, while also persuading or hiring Matt, Mark, Luke, and John to write eyewitness accounts of Jesus' biography as they understood it. Figuring out how to pay the four writers, as well as pulling off those miracles was really something, eh?

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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Another sinkhole of ill-informed anti-religious bias & bigotry. <sigh>

    To answer the OP: No. Until our species fully groks all... literally becomes gods... there will be an urge to reach for a fuller understanding. Like science, but in matters less concrete. And to write our hypotheses down. And for some to treat those essays as gospel, instead of useful speculation and advice. To, iow, create 'religions'.

    And there will always be the urge to talk about our thoughts on the ineffable... to come together in community to further our explorations. To, iow, to create 'churches'.

    And such efforts can be sublimely useful, or can be used perversely. There are always damaged sorts who gravitate toward avenues to power. As a balm to their stunted and withered souls.

    It doesn't matter what SORT of human institution... it can be used perversely.

    "When there is an accumulation of money and power into fewer and fewer hands, people with the mentality of gangsters come to the fore. Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" -- Lord Acton
    Most (All?) of the critique offered here so far comes from a place of ignorance and grievance.

    There's plenty of criticism that is well-deserved and well-founded, but there's been precious little of that so far. And WAY too little perspective. And WAY too much use of the broad brush.

    We WON'T be 'rid' of religion any time soon. Maybe never. All you critics might give some thought as to why that might be, and what role religion serves for humans. Such an examination might just lead you to a better perspective on the pluses & negatives, and where each spring from.
    David G
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  21. #56
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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    Something is deeply wrong in the Constitution when a court can dictate Christian Nationalism to the country. They don't want to govern, they want to rule...you, in Jesus' name.
    Question: how did it come to pass that the final authority on the Constitution rests in the courts?
    Last edited by sonofswen; 07-05-2022 at 12:24 PM.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    I am sure you believe in your product. I am sure you think others should buy into your product. But you are less of a salesman than those who sell their religion.

    But I could say the same for most people. Including myself. We will never be free from those who want to sell their beliefs.
    You seem to pay little attention. I don't sell anything other than the idea others don't force their 'product' on those who don't want it. That they don't make laws based on religious beliefs.

    I respect their right to follow their beliefs. I ask they respect my right to not follow their beliefs.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Most (All?) of the critique offered here so far comes from a place of ignorance and grievance.

    There's plenty of criticism that is well-deserved and well-founded, but there's been precious little of that so far. And WAY too little perspective. And WAY too much use of the broad brush.

    We WON'T be 'rid' of religion any time soon. Maybe never. All you critics might give some thought as to why that might be, and what role religion serves for humans. Such an examination might just lead you to a better perspective on the pluses & negatives, and where each spring from.
    I don't expect to be rid of religion. I expect our laws not to be grounded in it.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    I don't expect to be rid of religion. I expect our laws not to be grounded in it.
    I agree. But that's a problem of politics, not religion. A problem I've explained many times.
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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post

    We WON'T be 'rid' of religion any time soon. Maybe never. All you critics might give some thought as to why that might be, and what role religion serves for humans. Such an examination might just lead you to a better perspective on the pluses & negatives, and where each spring from.
    This won't C&P, but

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/20486953

    So we won't be rid of religion, ever. All we can do, as we have in the UK, is draft Codes of Practice (the US has a different term for them) that require public servants to leave their religion at home when setting off to work.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    From one to many.

    Without friends none of this is possible.

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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    From one to many.

    Fairy Nuff. Which of the 2,500 gods in the written record would that be?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Fairy Nuff. Which of the 2,500 gods in the written record would that be?
    Jesus Christ. There have always been more Christians in the U.S. than anything else.

    That phrase was added - a political decision (and perverse to my mind) - at two periods in our history. On coins... just before the Civil War. On paper money... in the mid-50's.

    I liked the old motto - which is still extant in many places - much better. E pluribus unum -- which means 'Out of many, one'. Much more in the spirit of our grand experiment in self-governance.
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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    Does anyone here really believe that Donald Trump is a Christian? He pretends to be one for the votes it gets him. So do so many others in Congress.

    If a lot of these folks really followed Jesus' teachings the world would be a very, very different place. On the other hand, his teachings were so moral. So ethical. So ...caring, that whomever it is that follows them is just setting themselves up for disappointment and failure in a world where the wolves would be among us like a flock of sheep.

    I think that most of northern Europe identifies itself as non-practicing. It won't be much longer before North America follows that lead, so there may come such a day.

    Mickey Lake
    'A disciple of the Norse god of aesthetically pleasing boats, Johan Anker'

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Jesus Christ. There have always been more Christians in the U.S. than anything else.

    That phrase was added - a political decision (and perverse to my mind) - at two periods in our history. On coins... just before the Civil War. On paper money... in the mid-50's.

    I liked the old motto - which is still extant in many places - much better. E pluribus unum -- which means 'Out of many, one'. Much more in the spirit of our grand experiment in self-governance.
    So you say, but it is not specific.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by bamamick View Post
    Does anyone here really believe that Donald Trump is a Christian? He pretends to be one for the votes it gets him. So do so many others in Congress.

    If a lot of these folks really followed Jesus' teachings the world would be a very, very different place. On the other hand, his teachings were so moral. So ethical. So ...caring, that whomever it is that follows them is just setting themselves up for disappointment and failure in a world where the wolves would be among us like a flock of sheep.

    I think that most of northern Europe identifies itself as non-practicing. It won't be much longer before North America follows that lead, so there may come such a day.

    Mickey Lake
    Does anyone here believe that any GOP politician actually understands Christs teaching?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Does anyone here believe that any GOP politician actually understands Christs teaching?
    I believe there are. Or at least who struggle sincerely to follow the true word of Christ.

    They don't last long, nor rise far in today's R party, if they open their mouths about it...
    David G
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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    You seem to pay little attention. I don't sell anything other than the idea others don't force their 'product' on those who don't want it. That they don't make laws based on religious beliefs.

    I respect their right to follow their beliefs. I ask they respect my right to not follow their beliefs.
    And there you go selling again.
    That they don't make laws based on religious beliefs.
    You want laws based on your beliefs. They want laws based on their beliefs. You object to their beliefs.
    Life is complex.

  34. #69
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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    And there you go selling again.


    You want laws based on your beliefs. They want laws based on their beliefs. You object to their beliefs.
    There is a middle way. Make laws to promote the General Welfare. "General" in this case means all citizens, male female, black, white, and brown, any religion or none, without fear or favor.
    We have an established (Anglican) church, but still manage to be even-handed, so it can be done. For example, we recently repealed our blasphemy law, because it was specifically Christian. We replaced it with new laws that were not specific to any religion.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Will we ever be independent from religion?

    I used to greet door knockers with "And what are you selling today?" They always protested but selling they were. But they have no hook if you are an unbeliever, they were only selling their franchises brand on the presumption that you were an adherent to another. My last visit was from a car load of mormons, they left when I laughed at them.

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