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Thread: Judicial Coup?

  1. #1
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    Default Judicial Coup?

    [IMc - I'm not sure that it's a coup, as in deliberately plotted, as it's the Court moving into the vacuum of McConnell's paralyzing both Congress and the administration. The effect of destroying our experiment in democratic self-governance is the same.]

    Ocasio-Cortez Says US 'Witnessing a Judicial Coup in Process'
    "It is our duty to check the Court's gross overreach of power in violating people's inalienable rights and seizing for itself the powers of Congress and the president."

    BRETT WILKINS
    June 30, 2022

    Progressive powerhouse Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez warned Thursday that the United States is "witnessing a judicial coup in progress," a reaction by the Democratic congresswoman to a raft of highly consequential Supreme Court rulings and the justices' scheduled hearing of a critical voting rights case.

    "If the president and Congress do not restrain the Court now, the Court is signaling they will come for the presidential election next," Ocasio-Cortez (N.Y.) tweeted in response to news that the Supreme Court will hear oral arguments in Moore v. Harper—a case involving the dubious right-wing "independent state legislature theory" (ISLT)—this October.

    ISLT, which the Brennan Center for Justice calls a "baseless" concept "making the rounds in conservative legal circles," contends that congressional elections can only be regulated by a state's lawmakers and not its judiciary, or even its constitution. The theory has been embraced by supporters of former President Donald Trump's efforts to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election.

    "If taken to its extreme, [ISLT] could help foment election subversion," writes legal scholar Richard L. Hasen in Slate. "How so? Suppose a state court or agency interprets state rules to allow for the counting of certain ballots, and doing so favors one candidate. If the leaders of the legislature are from the other party, and they say that the interpretation does not follow the views of the legislature, it's impermissible and the results need to flip."

    Ocasio-Cortez asserted that "all our leaders—regardless of party—must recognize this constitutional crisis for what it is."

    "At this point we should be well beyond partisanship," she added. "Members of Congress have sworn an oath to the Constitution. It is our duty to check the Court's gross overreach of power in violating people's inalienable rights and seizing for itself the powers of Congress and the president."

    One way in which progressives have proposed redressing the government's balance of power is by expanding the Supreme Court. Earlier this week, progressive advocacy groups led by Stand Up America launched the "Four More" campaign in support of the Judiciary Act, proposed legislation that would enlarge the high court from nine to 13 justices.

    This isn't the first time progressives have sounded the alarm over what some have called a "judicial coup."

    Green Party presidential candidate Ralph Nader and others used the term to describe the Supreme Court's conflict-laden Bush v. Gore ruling that handed the 2000 presidential election to George W. Bush—with the help of some familiar names including John Roberts, Brett Kavanaugh, and Amy Coney Barrett.

    Our work is licensed under Creative Commons (CC BY-NC-ND 3.0). Feel free to republish and share widely.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Judicial Coup?

    There are bills under consideration in states that have now enacted the strictest anti-abortion laws that would make it a crime to go to another state for an abortion. Think about that.

    We are seeing the unbridled intent of the right to recreate American society and the SCOTUS is in it as deep as it goes. They are nothing more than a political instrument now and have lost the respect of many Americans.
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    Default Re: Judicial Coup?

    It is not a coup. It is your peculiar constitutional system collapsing under its own contradictions.

    The US has a schizophrenic system, with the electoral college, the filibuster, gerrymandering, the power of states to make it hard to vote, and other crap that no functioning democracy has to deal with. As a result the people in power in the three branches often don't reflect the will of the people. But that's how your system was designed.

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    Default Re: Judicial Coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    It is not a coup. It is your peculiar constitutional system collapsing under its own contradictions.

    The US has a schizophrenic system, with the electoral college, the filibuster, gerrymandering, the power of states to make it hard to vote, and other crap that no functioning democracy has to deal with. As a result the people in power in the three branches often don't reflect the will of the people. But that's how your system was designed.
    I don't often agree with George, but I do on this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    I don't often agree with George.
    Funny, I almost always agree with stuff you post.

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    Default Re: Judicial Coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    It is not a coup. It is your peculiar constitutional system collapsing under its own contradictions.

    The US has a schizophrenic system, with the electoral college, the filibuster, gerrymandering, the power of states to make it hard to vote, and other crap that no functioning democracy has to deal with. As a result the people in power in the three branches often don't reflect the will of the people. But that's how your system was designed.
    This is true, but I'd add, again, that our system relies on informed voters. Misinformed voters are going to be the downfall of the system.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: Judicial Coup?

    I usually agree with both of you, and I do do once more on this.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: Judicial Coup?

    I think the US has a bit of a mess on its hands. I am not sure there is a solution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob winter View Post
    I think the US has a bit of a mess on its hands. I am not sure there is a solution.
    The ONLY solution, which is unlikely, is to elect enough democrats so the filibuster won't matter.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: Judicial Coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    The ONLY solution, which is unlikely, is to elect enough democrats so the filibuster won't matter.
    Or divine intervention in the form of a couple of well timed heart attacks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    This is true, but I'd add, again, that our system relies on informed voters. Misinformed voters are going to be the downfall of the system.
    I don't think your voters are that misinformed. Even with your ridiculous undemocratic elections, where citizens can be actually prevented from voting, the Republican party would never hold the presidency, House, or Senate if the majority vote actually counted.

    With the electoral college, gerrymandering, and disproportionate representation, Republicans are able to control much of government much of the time with only a minority of the votes cast nationwide. That frees them from being reasonable and allows them to cultivate the stupider quartile of the population, with a further 15% or so being co-opted through corruption and greed.

    Any population conforms to a bell curve of intelligence. When a system allows a party to rule without the center of that curve, the logical thing to do is to brainwash the stupider tail end. I shudder to think how much worse Brazil would get if we had your system.

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    Default Re: Judicial Coup?

    oh, i don't know. what happens when the will of the people turns ugly? is it so crucial that their will be expressed?

    yes, republicans are a minority nationwide...but not by much.

    the extreme swing of the supreme court wasn't really built into our "system".

    yes, mcconnell "stole" one seat, but only because we lost the presidency in '16 by a few hundred thousand votes, in a few crucial spots.

    all this handwringing over the electoral college and gerrymandering etc., is just a way to avoid the reality. the votes have not been there when it counted most.

    majority rule by itself is no panacea, never has been. civic-mindedness across the spectrum is the actual thing that makes a liberal democracy function.

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    Default Re: Judicial Coup?

    in other words, the structure of a liberal democracy is just details.

    because a liberal democracy is essentially an honor system.

    our problem is, honor is dead.

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    Default Re: Judicial Coup?

    It is not really an honor system. It is a system based on the assumption that if it came to violence the majority is likely to win, but with high costs for both sides. It is logical then to skip the violence and yield to majority rule. However, if it gets too abusive the minority may well choose to bear the costs of violence, hence constitutional guarantees for minorities.

    Game theory, no honor required.

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    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    in other words, the structure of a liberal democracy is just details.

    because a liberal democracy is essentially an honor system.

    our problem is, honor is dead.
    I would hardly classify the United States as a "liberal democracy". I am not sure that Canada, Australia or the UK are either.

  16. #16
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    I've spoken before decrying this level of ahistorical, ignorant, cynical, nihilism. It's lazy and self-indulgent.

    And most of you lot are rolling exuberantly in it.

    Oh, and it's just the attitude the oligarchs wish you to adopt.
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  17. #17
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    Default Re: Judicial Coup?

    This has happened before. There was a case, Lochner vs New York, in 1897, (link) after which the court ruled against most forms of economic regulation, no matter how well-justified, on the basis of a fairly bizarre interpretation of the Constitution. It lasted well into the 1930s. 'Collapsing' is seriously hyperbolic, but 'doing bad things' is accurate enough.

    Cynicism about political institutions in a functioning democracy (and yes, for all its problems the US is still one) is one of those things that's good in moderation, poisonous in excess. Beer, doughnuts, ambition . . .
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 07-01-2022 at 11:03 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    This is true, but I'd add, again, that our system relies on informed voters. Misinformed voters are going to be the downfall of the system.
    One of the biggest mistakes one can make is to suggest that if others knew more they would agree with one.

    Usually, in a democracy when one wants something, one gives others something in hopes that both getting something changes votes.

    Rather than inform voters, perhaps you could offer voters something they want.
    Life is complex.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    It is not really an honor system. It is a system based on the assumption that if it came to violence the majority is likely to win, but with high costs for both sides. It is logical then to skip the violence and yield to majority rule. However, if it gets too abusive the minority may well choose to bear the costs of violence, hence constitutional guarantees for minorities.

    Game theory, no honor required.
    perhaps. certainly for some.

    but, how to explain all the white male liberals on, for instance, this forum.

    i think we are, speaking of residues, residue of a time before white nationalism was ever really a force, because we were a white nation. before the patriarchal movement to overturn reproductive rights for women was really necessary, because we were a patriarchy.

    in broad terms, there was a time when it cost little for the white male patriarchy to honor the spirit of "all men are created equal", to expand the class of "men", because the white patriarchy wasn't seriously threatened. the white patriarchy was spread between two parties.

    then we elected a black man president. and the coalescing of the white patriarchy voters began in earnest. we nominated a woman to follow the black man, a woman with unprecedented support from people of color, from "the other".

    and we saw how shallow was the honor of white suburban women, didn't we.

    i think we will see the white patriarchy voter continue to coalesce. white people generally, but also minorities committed to patriarchy.

    which is why i say, those of us committed to honoring the spirit of "all men are created equal" may not need to complain of being a powerless majority for long. we will find out how shallow is the honor of the white male liberal, soon to be if not already ex-liberal.
    Last edited by L.W. Baxter; 07-01-2022 at 11:27 AM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    One of the biggest mistakes one can make is to suggest that if others knew more they would agree with one.

    Usually, in a democracy when one wants something, one gives others something in hopes that both getting something changes votes.

    Rather than inform voters, perhaps you could offer voters something they want.
    A chicken in every pot?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    A chicken in every pot?
    I think that is in line with what the Democrats would offer. I think the population deserves more.

    I think it would be helpful if the Democrat controlled states had programs that helped the poor and minorities a lot more then they helped the richer and whiter.
    Life is complex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    in other words, the structure of a liberal democracy is just details.

    because a liberal democracy is essentially an honor system.

    our problem is, honor is dead.
    Our bigger problem is, honor is dead for Republicans. And for their supporters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    The US has a schizophrenic system, with the electoral college, the filibuster, gerrymandering, the power of states to make it hard to vote, and other crap that no functioning democracy has to deal with. But that's how your system was designed.
    Disagree in part - in spite of the fact that the SCOTUS has defended it, gerrymandering ought to be clearly forbidden by the "equal protection clause" of the 14th. And the filibuster too has no constitutional protection.

    AOC is correct. Once the SCOTUS blows up state level judicial review, AND removes any limits on gerrymandering - democracy in the US will truly be hanging by a thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Our bigger problem is, honor is dead for Republicans. And for their supporters.

    Tom
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    Chicken in every pot” was Republican campaign slogan of the late 1920s. The slogan is often incorrectly attributed to Herbert Hoover; it became a means for Democrats to attack Republicans as out of touch with economic reality.

    The desire for there to be a “chicken in every pot” dates back at least to 16th century France. That’s when Henri IV supposedly wished that every peasant in his kingdom, no matter how poor, could have a chicken in his pot every Sunday.

    https://politicaldictionary.com/word...-in-every-pot/

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Chicken in every pot” was Republican campaign slogan of the late 1920s. The slogan is often incorrectly attributed to Herbert Hoover; it became a means for Democrats to attack Republicans as out of touch with economic reality.
    I expressed my view of policy both here
    I think that [chick in every pot] is in line with what the Democrats would offer. I think the population deserves more.

    I think it would be helpful if the Democrat controlled states had programs that helped the poor and minorities a lot more then they helped the richer and whiter.
    And previously - better K-12 for the poor and minorities, bringing income of poor households up to the median.

    What policies do you think would woo the votes of those who do not vote for Democrats?
    Life is complex.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Judicial Coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    It is not a coup. It is your peculiar constitutional system collapsing under its own contradictions.

    The US has a schizophrenic system, with the electoral college, the filibuster, gerrymandering, the power of states to make it hard to vote, and other crap that no functioning democracy has to deal with. As a result the people in power in the three branches often don't reflect the will of the people. But that's how your system was designed.
    Yep. It bears remembering that the first iteration, under the Articles of Confederation, was a failure. The Constitution, it was hoped, would cure its faults by wiping the slate clean. There was a great deal of compromise, except on fundamentals.
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