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Thread: New nuclear power plants

  1. #1
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    Default New nuclear power plants

    The company Vattenfall, the large state owned electricity company in Sweden, has announced that they are taking the initial steps for building new nuclear reactors. The intention is to locate them where there already are, or have been, nuclear power plants. The new reactors will be of the SMR (Small Modular Reactor) type because of economy.

    I enclose a link to an article in English on the subject and the press release from Vattenfall. There seems to be much more substance to the plans in the Swedish news feed than in the article in English.
    https://world-nuclear-news.org/Artic...Rs-at-Ringhals
    https://group.vattenfall.com/press-a...rs-at-ringhals

    The move by Vattenfall signals a dramatic change in the attitude towards nuclear power. The government has most likely been informed beforehand and does not object.

    /Erik

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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    I realize that they have made some advances in reactor safety and efficiency, but I can't get behind a process where the waste must be safely stored for 100,000 years. I realize that Finland has developed a state-of-the-art waste storage facility but until there is a process to neutralize the waste in the short-term, the risks are unacceptable.

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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    I realize that they have made some advances in reactor safety and efficiency, but I can't get behind a process where the waste must be safely stored for 100,000 years. I realize that Finland has developed a state-of-the-art waste storage facility but until there is a process to neutralize the waste in the short-term, the risks are unacceptable.
    Agree. I understand that there's a push going on. But there's going to have to be a whole different approach... some sort of breakthru... in waste disposal before I regard nuclear as plausible or feasible. Let along 'green'.
    David G
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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    I don't think any should be built until they figure out what to do with the waste. Not because I don't think any should be built, but because I fear if they can keep building they'll just kick the can down the road on the waste problem until it becomes unmanageable.

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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    I don't think any should be built until they figure out what to do with the waste. Not because I don't think any should be built, but because I fear if they can keep building they'll just kick the can down the road on the waste problem until it becomes unmanageable.
    Precisely
    David G
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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    I don't think any should be built until they figure out what to do with the waste. Not because I don't think any should be built, but because I fear if they can keep building they'll just kick the can down the road on the waste problem until it becomes unmanageable.
    I don't think there is a waste solution other than storage and there are no storage vessels with lifetimes longer than the radioactive material.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    We just have to turn of the heat in Europe
    Ragnar B.

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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    I don't think there is a waste solution other than storage and there are no storage vessels with lifetimes longer than the radioactive material.
    That's my understand also... of the current situation. But they continue to do research.

    Lotta money to be made, if that little detail can be smartly addressed. When Washington was building a string of nukes (whoops), my cousin the electrician went from a small operation to a very large one by bidding on some of the projects. He went from middle-class to very wealthy. He now owns 3 homes and has long retired to the large one in AridZoner.
    David G
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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    We now have approved our long term storage facility in Sweden, although the Bilge expertise might not agree with the expertise within the Swedish nuclear regulatory authorities that it's safe.
    Nuclear is far from ideal. The last winter made clear what we already knew; wind and sun don't generate much electricity on a calm and cold winter night. We don't have sufficient power lines to move electricity from the north where most of the hydro electric power is generated. Germany's decision to phase out nuclear has created a shortage of electricity in northern Europe, that Germany intended to solve with Russian gas.
    Many of the CO2 neutral alternatives to produce e.g. steel and concrete require lots of electricity, often with hydrogen as the intermediary. We need more electricity to make us CO2 neutral and nuclear is attractive because it's dependable. It's not a question of choosing the best alternatives, but to choose the least bad. Worst of all is fossil fuel.
    /Erik

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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    I don't think any should be built until they figure out what to do with the waste. Not because I don't think any should be built, but because I fear if they can keep building they'll just kick the can down the road on the waste problem until it becomes unmanageable.
    What’s the difference between kicking the can down the road with nuclear waste vs CO2 emissions?

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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    What’s the difference between kicking the can down the road with nuclear waste vs CO2 emissions?
    CO2 emissions are no longer kickable
    nuclear waste is manageably storable
    there is no tech that makes fossil fuel waste recyclable, nuclear waste is already recycled in 50% and rising
    newer Thorium based nuclear tech significantly reduces waste problem
    WszystekPoTrochu's signature available only for premium forum users.

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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    Quote Originally Posted by WszystekPoTrochu View Post
    CO2 emissions are no longer kickable
    nuclear waste is manageably storable
    there is no tech that makes fossil fuel waste recyclable, nuclear waste is already recycled in 50% and rising
    newer Thorium based nuclear tech significantly reduces waste problem
    The manageability of nuclear waste storage is based on a very short amount of time in operation. It’s still kicking the can.

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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    I don't think there is a waste solution other than storage and there are no storage vessels with lifetimes longer than the radioactive material.
    Just watched a documentary which included the Thorpe reprocessing plant, just north of me as I type.
    The vast majority of the spent fuel was reprocessed back into useable fuel, whist the relatively small amount of residue is vitrified by fusing it with glass. These glass slugs are stored on site, pending a final solution.

    The bottom line is that Nuclear does not produce CO2, and you can generate electricity with it on still windless dark nights. Which is why we are building new ones.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    Quote Originally Posted by ERGR View Post
    We now have approved our long term storage facility in Sweden, although the Bilge expertise might not agree with the expertise within the Swedish nuclear regulatory authorities that [says] it's safe.
    Nuclear is far from ideal. The last winter made clear what we already knew; wind and sun don't generate much electricity on a calm and cold winter night. We don't have sufficient power lines to move electricity from the north where most of the hydro electric power is generated. Germany's decision to phase out nuclear has created a shortage of electricity in northern Europe, that Germany intended to solve with Russian gas.
    Many of the CO2 neutral alternatives to produce e.g. steel and concrete require lots of electricity, often with hydrogen as the intermediary. We need more electricity to make us CO2 neutral and nuclear is attractive because it's dependable. It's not a question of choosing the best alternatives, but to choose the least bad. Worst of all is fossil fuel.
    /Erik
    I have my doubts about that 'safe' part.

    But I'd love to be convinced otherwise. Do you have info you can link to where they make the 'safe' argument? Is it the same as #13?
    David G
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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    I have my doubts about that 'safe' part.

    But I'd love to be convinced otherwise. Do you have info you can link to where they make the 'safe' argument? Is it the same as #13?
    It will be a lot easier to solve the storage of small quantities of waste than it will be to get huge quantities of CO2 and permafrost methane out of the atmosphere.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    Unfortunately, the new Nuke plants are the lessor of two evils. Emissions from Fossil fuels can no longer be kicked down the road for the next generation. We are at the end of the line now. Nuke waste can be stored for decades without major worry, hopefully by that time we may have a system for better storage or recycling. It's not fair, but it may be our only choice until we can get fusion working.
    "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito"

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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Haberland View Post
    Unfortunately, the new Nuke plants are the lessor of two evils. Emissions from Fossil fuels can no longer be kicked down the road for the next generation. We are at the end of the line now. Nuke waste can be stored for decades without major worry, hopefully by that time we may have a system for better storage or recycling. It's not fair, but it may be our only choice until we can get fusion working.
    And until that Golden Goose of fusion is developed, assuming the EROEI is good, we’ll still rip through fossil fuels to develop solar, wind, nuclear and other power generation systems. My $.02 we’re way past reducing CO2 emissions having a meaningful reduction in harm and should be developing resilient power sources and demand for economies under stress.

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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    Electric cars = nuclear power plants.
    Make your own decision.
    The idea of powering the world's cars and factories on wind and solar is a joke. Maybe someday, and we need to keep working on it but today it will not work!
    The more we put the cart before the horse the more we shoot ourselves in the foot.

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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    Maybe they are thinking that in 100,000 years the species will be extinct………… or the planet and our own profligacy will have already killed us off……………...

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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    An increasing but already vast part of the world has enough sun and wind to power the world. New technologies are emerging that allow this energy to be converted to portable fuel without poisoning a poisoned planet even further. Nuclear power is all about vested interests. It has nothing to do with protecting the planet.
    Rick

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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    Quote Originally Posted by ShorelineJohn View Post
    Electric cars = nuclear power plants.
    Make your own decision.
    The idea of powering the world's cars and factories on wind and solar is a joke. Maybe someday, and we need to keep working on it but today it will not work!
    The more we put the cart before the horse the more we shoot ourselves in the foot.
    There have been big advances in windows that create solar power and siding for buildings that produce solar power and sidewalk and road constructions that produce solar power.

    Electric cars won't dominate the country for a while and there is time. A family home can easily produce enough electrical power to power their home and car.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    We need to build a small sun and move it around to where it's needed I thought fusion technology was going to be the answer by now- doesn't seem to be a lot happening there. JayInOz

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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    I am all for it. Germany's decision to ditch nuke power at this time seems foolhardy. Not a perfect solution but better than burning Russian gas.

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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    Quote Originally Posted by ShorelineJohn View Post
    Electric cars = nuclear power plants.
    Make your own decision.
    The idea of powering the world's cars and factories on wind and solar is a joke. Maybe someday, and we need to keep working on it but today it will not work!
    The more we put the cart before the horse the more we shoot ourselves in the foot.
    The idea of maintaining an energy consumption made possible by fossil fuels with non fossil sources is also a joke. In other words with or without wind, solar, nukes, hydro and magic fairy dust fossil sources will decline and there will be billions of people living off of terawatts of fossil power and megatons of material feedstock that is in decline. So it’s not so much electric cars = nuclear power it’s that fossil power makes nuclear, solar, wind, hydro power possible.

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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    Here in Seattle We don't have sidewalks that can even power the street light. Matter of fact we are kinda do good when our street lights don't kill dogs. I am all for a great science based future, but we don't have those houses and nobody is building them here on any scale that will make a difference. From google:

    How much of Washington's electricity is renewable?



    Non-hydroelectric renewable energy sources – wind, biomass and solar – currently contribute about 3 % of Washington's total electricity generation. The state's wind energy production has increased significantly since 2000, ranking as one of the top wind energy states in the nation.

    We are not only building electric cars now they are working on mandating them. The last thing we want to do is build nuclear power plants on a hurried up schedule! Washingtonians knows what happens then! (One Picture!!!!!)

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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    If we don't consider over-population, we don't have a choice.
    I'm not leaving.

    -- Mike Pence

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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    I don't know if I could ever trust this state to build a reactor again!
    And the big problem is today they would have gotten away with it.
    They took one picture of one weld, duplicated that picture several thousand times and put them all in a file, (in like a filing cabinet). Those pictures were proof of inspection of every weld and nobody even looked!
    The Judge didn't even shut it down, He just said they had to take real pictures and seeing the welds were encased in several feet of concrete the state closed it down due to the cost of compliance.
    Many, many people thought the State had the power to change the compliance laws. That was their solution!
    Today it is easy to use AI tools to change one picture into several thousands variations so even on looking at them (not that they will) it would look like thousands of welds.
    How as a person living in this state could I ever trust them again. When they don't follow the rules the rules don't really mater.
    The power plant does sit just south of the Olympic Peninsula, you know the place with the only rain forest in the country.

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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    And just so people know, It's the power plant on the Simpsons! NO really it is, Matt Groening grew up in Portland just south of it.
    The fact that they never came online keeps him from being sued!

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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    If there's money to be made or political advantage to be gained then corruption will inevitably eventuate.
    Humans are like that.
    And if you think the future threat of radition leakage in a time scale of 100,000 years, or even 500, or even 200, will turn people off keeping the house hot rather than warm……………. think again.
    "I'm allright Jack………….. you"

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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    If we don't consider over-population, we don't have a choice.
    "Killing is necessary"
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    The problem is that it is not 100, 000 years or even 100 years. In the past 40 years we have had 3 significant accidents: Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, and Fukushima. And these aren't even the worst potential accidents. And as more waste gets stored it is only a matter of time before we will eventually have a storage or waste transportation mishap.

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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    The problem is that it is not 100, 000 years or even 100 years. In the past 40 years we have had 3 significant accidents: Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, and Fukushima. And these aren't even the worst potential accidents. And as more waste gets stored it is only a matter of time before we will eventually have a storage or waste transportation mishap.
    Just because you are incapable of learning from your mistakes, does not mean that . . . .

    Consider the risks from coal mining:
    https://arlweb.msha.gov/stats/centur.../coalstats.asp
    Last edited by Peerie Maa; 06-30-2022 at 07:29 AM.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  33. #33
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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    I would agree to a grand bargain in a second.

    Build more nukes while radically cutting oil and coal and throwing enough money at the nuclear waste problem to make it implausible it won't be solved in 10 years.

    But what we have now is a lobby to build more nukes without the radical cuts in emissions, and still stalling on the waste issue. So, no.

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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Just because you Are incapable of learning from your mistakes, does not mean that . . . .
    It's not about learning from mistakes. It is theoretically possible to build a 100% safe nuclear power plant, but the cost greatly outweighs the revenue from electricity generation. So all powerplants try to balance risk with cost savings....Failure Mode Effect Analysis. As soon as you introduce compromise you are accepting an element of risk and calculating risk is very difficult. When they built the World Trade Towers, they considered the risk of a plane hitting the building. So they engineered it to withstand a full-on impact from a Boeing 707 - the largest passenger plane of the time. Unfortunately aviation advancements left us with the Boeing 757 which had sufficient fuel capacity and heft to take down the towers. Even when you plan for the worst case scenario, you can't cover all the bases.

  35. #35
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    Default Re: New nuclear power plants

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    It's not about learning from mistakes. It is theoretically possible to build a 100% safe nuclear power plant, but the cost greatly outweighs the revenue from electricity generation. So all powerplants try to balance risk with cost savings....Failure Mode Effect Analysis. As soon as you introduce compromise you are accepting an element of risk and calculating risk is very difficult. When they built the World Trade Towers, they considered the risk of a plane hitting the building. So they engineered it to withstand a full-on impact from a Boeing 707 - the largest passenger plane of the time. Unfortunately aviation advancements left us with the Boeing 757 which had sufficient fuel capacity and heft to take down the towers. Even when you plan for the worst case scenario, you can't cover all the bases.
    That might be true in the US of A.

    I worked in a part of the UK nuclear industry, so i know how well regulated and the high levels of QA that are allied to it
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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