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Thread: The left's circular firing squad.

  1. #281
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    No offense to Mr Reasonable Wilson, AlanMc isn’t interested in the linguistic or social distinctions. At least he’s stated that he’s not bothered by those who are non-traditionally gendered. He can sit right next to them and not be bothered, though putting forward the little effort to modify his vernacular is too much. He’d rather dismiss it by calling transgendered folks idiots. And that’s because he doesn’t accept what our society has been busy reconciling for the past several decades; he doesn’t believe there are actually people who really are trans-sexual. In his mind gay people are just queers and so are people who cross dress and anyone else who manifests anything other than straight male or female.

    He comes across as narrow-minded, bigoted, and smugly self-satisfied, unlikely to change his mind, writing off both the people who are the subject of this discussion and those of us who’ve chosen to honor their choices.

    My hunch is that AlanMc is the sort of person who sees the world in the binary fashion that tells him there are only himself and his people on one side and everyone else is an ‘other’ for whom there is no consideration if it conflicts with him and his, a very small ‘us’ and a necessarily very large ‘them.’


  2. #282
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Bobbys, who wrote the article you’ve just posted without attribution?


  3. #283
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    No offense to Mr Reasonable Wilson, AlanMc isn’t interested in the linguistic or social distinctions. At least he’s stated that he’s not bothered by those who are non-traditionally gendered. He can sit right next to them and not be bothered, though putting forward the little effort to modify his vernacular is too much. He’d rather dismiss it by calling transgendered folks idiots. And that’s because he doesn’t accept what our society has been busy reconciling for the past several decades; he doesn’t believe there are actually people who really are trans-sexual. In his mind gay people are just queers and so are people who cross dress and anyone else who manifests anything other than straight male or female.

    He comes across as narrow-minded, bigoted, and smugly self-satisfied, unlikely to change his mind, writing off both the people who are the subject of this discussion and those of us who’ve chosen to honor their choices.

    My hunch is that AlanMc is the sort of person who sees the world in the binary fashion that tells him there are only himself and his people on one side and everyone else is an ‘other’ for whom there is no consideration if it conflicts with him and his, a very small ‘us’ and a necessarily very large ‘them.’

    you have been notified off my preferred name and pronouns and yet you refuse to use them. then you call ME a bigot!

  4. #284
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quoting the estimable DavidG, snort.


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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    SIGN LANGUAGE LESSON --

    bs
    Last edited by David G; 07-14-2022 at 05:45 PM.
    David G
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    you have been notified off my preferred name and pronouns and yet you refuse to use them. then you call ME a bigot!
    Wait a minute, who invited her to the circular firing squad?

    Sniper from the right! She's gunning for us!

    ('m using the pronouns I prefer for AlanMc, not the ones she prefers, because she's an idiot for wanting to be called that.)

  7. #287
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Wait a minute, who invited her to the circular firing squad?

    Sniper from the right! She's gunning for us!

    ('m using the pronouns I prefer for AlanMc, not the ones she prefers, because she's an idiot for wanting to be called that.)

    now you're getting it!

  8. #288
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Compliments to Ms AlanMc for being a good sport about it. Thanks, dear.




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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    I’m too close to marginalized people who are just being as god created them, yet feel nothing but hatred and revulsion. Nobody I know is so frivolous with their gender nor pronouns, and nor is anyone I associate with so dismissive and disrespectful of others.

    They can’t write enough laws to make people be decent to one another.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    perfectly put, rob.

  11. #291
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    can you provide a definition for me?
    Like most words, it has several different meanings depending on context and intent.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    Bobbys, who wrote the article you’ve just posted without attribution?
    The Bobster is not very good at sourcing his posts . .

    and that kind of carelessness makes him an easy mark for the Reich.

    Somebody, maybe Bobs, should start a thread explaining how Biden is personally responsible for inflation in . .

    the UK, Germany, France and all the rest of the OECD

    https://www.oecd.org/newsroom/consum...-july-2022.htm



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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    They can’t write enough laws to make people be decent to one another.
    That is literally my whole point in this discussion.

  14. #294
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Like most words, it has several different meanings depending on context and intent.

    i'll just assume that you know what it is, but cannot post it b/c of the circular firing squad.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    That is literally my whole point in this discussion.
    nope. if it were, you could "literally" replace the o.p. with that one line. so go ahead and do it.

    but the paralysis on the left over nomenclature is not about laws. it is about designing social mores, to make socially unacceptable hateful expressions, and create a more inclusive framework of language and behavior. the proving ground for the new is in progressive organizations, agencies, and businesses. and it is a voluntary experiment, though with some coercive weight of public approbation/disapproval.

    the paralysis comes in where consensus fails. this happens when extremists won't settle for improvement, but demand a purity that is yet to even be defined.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    you abandoned our line of discussion george. you were going to tell me what the process is for consciousness to reach enlightenment "one individual at a time". when does our toddler start developing his own private concepts of everything?

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    i will accept your limited definition of "collective consciousness".

    i never said that the collective consciousness is homogenous or static. it is neither.

    the examples you cite as diverse individuals can be seen as either signals of change to, or remnants of past, collective consciousness.

    an individual in culture #2 who changes his consciousness and decides to eat a dog would likely be considered mentally ill. but the entirety of culture #1 is not mentally ill, right?

    the notion that the collective consciousness changes "one at a time" is not intelligible. at what age do you posit that this agency starts? do you expect a toddler to develop his own concept of "dog", independently of social experience and instruction?

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    designing social mores, to make socially unacceptable hateful expressions, and create a more inclusive framework of language and behavior.
    That is mostly a waste of time in my opinion. The most that can be achieved is to make people who already aren't racist become cowed enough to use the new language. The haters will still hate, and use any word they like, no matter how offensive.

    Slavery wasn't eliminated by forcing people to call slaves "enslaved persons". It was eliminated by being outlawed.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    the paralysis comes in where consensus fails.
    The above seems reasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    this happens when extremists won't settle for improvement, but demand a purity that is yet to even be defined.
    But that "above" is clearly biased--a clear demonstration of the firing squad in action. Consensus failures are the result of "extremists" seeking "purity"? (nice loaded word choice) And never the result of those stubbornly clinging to the status quo in the face of reformist pressures?

    Pull the other one.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    i'll just assume that you know what it is, but cannot post it b/c of the circular firing squad.
    Not at all. Which definition would you like? There's a purely biological definition, and various social/psychological ones. In most folks they align pretty well, but not all. Most of them are largely binary, but never entirely. You apparently wish to use the word as if the various definitions always went together (and most of the time they do - but not all) - but language should be a description of reality, not a prescription of how we should look at things.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 07-15-2022 at 09:18 AM.
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    you abandoned our line of discussion george. you were going to tell me what the process is for consciousness to reach enlightenment "one individual at a time". when does our toddler start developing his own private concepts of everything?
    I think it's when it starts responding to the incentives and deterrents it finds in the world.

    If the young human lives in a world where it is profitable (latu sensu, not just $) to be an a$$hole, it will grow up to be one. If being an a$$hole is a liability, it will avoid acting like one.

    I think it makes little to no difference what society professes to be the "right thing" to do. If being an a$$hole is condemned by the high-minded but remains profitable, there will be lots of a$$holes. The best you get is hypocrisy.

    That said, some people will be a$$holes no matter what, and some will never be a$$holes. It is the middle 80% of the bell curve that concerns us here.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    a basic question:

    do we learn from others? does our society, our circumstances, the things communicated to us, the symbols displayed, etc., largely determine what we "believe", and how we behave?

    or does each individual teach itself, by application of reason, a personal language, and develop free-willed behavior, and an entire system of beliefs?

    i am entirely in the camp of the first option. i don't see much agency, or original, independent thought anywhere. what i see is a complex feedback between social animals, each in turn being influenced by, and influencing others. i see throughout human history a constant overturning of conceptual forms and social mores, analogous to the evolution of language, evidenced in every sort of cultural change,

    according to this worldview, making conscious, collective effort to alter the language, symbology, and acceptable social behavior is obviously functional, and plainly has an effect on society, for good or ill. and i would note that such conscious efforts are nothing new. it is the primary function of organized religion, just for starters.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    I appreciate that an adult conversation keeps trying to break out here.
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    one might fruitfully compare the progressive-minded organizations and agencies referenced in the o.p., paralyzed with conversation over language, to early meetings of the bishops, hammering out between them which of the many, often self-contradictory, "words of god" would become canon, and how they would be interpreted, how they would be presented to the masses for their edification. it was a conversation that went on for centuries, and in fact, continues today.

    would you say that the consensus developed by those bishops has been of no consequence? or would you say that it has played a significant role in the course of western civilization? that it plays a formative role in the conceptual framework in which we all labor today?

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    It's entirely possible to have a policy that is both legally non-discriminatory under our current system, and yet is anti-racist by Kendi's definition.
    No, because anti-racism requires discrimination.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    If you can quote Kendi advocating an illegally discriminatory policy, please do.
    Already have:

    The only remedy to racist discrimination is antiracist discrimination. The only remedy to past discrimination is present discrimination. The only remedy to present discrimination is future discrimination . . . If discrimination is creating equity, then it is antiracist.

    -- Ibram X. Kendi, How To Be An Anti-racist

    https://www.penguin.co.uk/articles/2...ntiracist.html
    But that's as nothing compared to this:

    Pass an Anti-Racist Constitutional Amendment
    Ibram X. Kendi
    Ibram X. Kendi is a professor of history, director of the Antiracist Research & Policy Center at American University, and author of How to Be an Antiracist.

    To fix the original sin of racism, Americans should pass an anti-racist amendment to the U.S. Constitution that enshrines two guiding anti-racist principals: Racial inequity is evidence of racist policy and the different racial groups are equals. The amendment would make unconstitutional racial inequity over a certain threshold, as well as racist ideas by public officials (with “racist ideas” and “public official” clearly defined). It would establish and permanently fund the Department of Anti-racism (DOA) comprised of formally trained experts on racism and no political appointees. The DOA would be responsible for preclearing all local, state and federal public policies to ensure they won’t yield racial inequity, monitor those policies, investigate private racist policies when racial inequity surfaces, and monitor public officials for expressions of racist ideas. The DOA would be empowered with disciplinary tools to wield over and against policymakers and public officials who do not voluntarily change their racist policy and ideas.

    https://www.politico.com/interactive...nal-amendment/
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    one might fruitfully compare the progressive-minded organizations and agencies referenced in the o.p., paralyzed with conversation over language, to early meetings of the bishops, hammering out between them which of the many, often self-contradictory, "words of god" would become canon, and how they would be interpreted, how they would be presented to the masses for their edification. it was a conversation that went on for centuries, and in fact, continues today.

    would you say that the consensus developed by those bishops has been of no consequence? or would you say that it has played a significant role in the course of western civilization? that it plays a formative role in the conceptual framework in which we all labor today?
    Those guys, plus the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, the Reformation, and English common law.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Those guys, plus the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, the Reformation, and English common law.
    sure. ideation from many quarters. and most especially positive and progressive in these past few centuries.

    i would argue that, what some are bemoaning as "wokeness"--preferred gender pronouns as an example--is a continuation of the significant progress of the enlightenment in western civilization. as practical applications, such may be dead ends, as they may not show utility, but they are not trivial. they serve their purpose of ideation, as the above example in the evolution of the concept of gender, that makes room for everyone.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    So a few lefties are not too polite, and somewhat intolerant to boot . .

    Compare that to the thousands of death threats issued to Tony Gonzalez, Amy Acton and other half-way honest republicans.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    i don't see much agency, or original, independent thought anywhere. what i see is a complex feedback between social animals, each in turn being influenced by, and influencing others.
    And yet original thoughts do turn up, and they usually start with individuals and small groups.

    "Slavery is bad" was an original idea. Before that, the best you ever got was "slavery is bad for me." It started with a very few early abolitionists, who went on to persuade others, one by one, mainly through reason. Only when it reached a critical mass of individuals adhering to it did it become a viable idea.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    And yet original thoughts do turn up, and they usually start with individuals and small groups.

    "Slavery is bad" was an original idea. Before that, the best you ever got was "slavery is bad for me." It started with a very few early abolitionists, who went on to persuade others, one by one, mainly through reason. Only when it reached a critical mass of individuals adhering to it did it become a viable idea.
    boom baby. collective consciousness. an idea promoted and exchanged and developed and passed down to the next generation until it became "viable". those abolitionists were super woke.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    gotta tell you though, george, i'm not sure of your ad hoc history of human thought.

    quite possibly the first time somebody thought "slavery is wrong" was the first time someone was enslaved.

    but i don't know, i wasn't there.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    at any rate, george, the existence of "original thought" has little to do with the way in which society progresses.

    by your model, it would seem that each individual has to think his way to every idea held to be right or true.

    any kindergartner in the u.s. can tell you "slavery is wrong" and "because people are equal". did every five year old reason their way to this idea? or were they taught.

    if they were taught, then surely, it matters what they are taught.

    what they are taught becomes what they believe. what they believe consists of concepts, expressed in words. names.

    i reckon the vast majority of people alive today believe that "slavery is wrong", and have never thought or reasoned about it, period. they just "know" it. that's how we progress--or regress--as human societies. not one individual at a time. by collective consciousness.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    at any rate, george, the existence of "original thought" has little to do with the way in which society progresses.

    by your model, it would seem that each individual has to think his way to every idea held to be right or true.

    any kindergartner in the u.s. can tell you "slavery is wrong" and "because people are equal". did every five year old reason their way to this idea? or were they taught.

    if they were taught, then surely, it matters what they are taught.

    what they are taught becomes what they believe. what they believe consists of concepts, expressed in words. names.

    i reckon the vast majority of people alive today believe that "slavery is wrong", and have never thought or reasoned about it, period. they just "know" it. that's how we progress--or regress--as human societies. not one individual at a time. by collective consciousness.
    It's an interesting question. Cultures do change, and there are original thoughts. But once an idea becomes widely adopted, people don't think much about it. One of Locke's original ideas was that we are all born owning ourselves, and can never trade that away. Intuitively, it makes sense, because it's always going to be me looking out of my eyes, no matter what contract gets signed, and I can never stop caring how I'm used. But once that thought becomes embedded in the culture, it can take us places the original thinker would not have thought of.

    If we are all born owning ourselves and cannot alienate that property, treating people as property becomes odious. It's true for slaves, it's true for women and for children. Institutions that are millennia old start to seem illegitimate. First slavery, then patriarchy. That's a huge threat to the traditional structures of society, which is why conservatives hate liberalism.

    We have a society at war with itself because age-old beliefs are being supplanted. Of course language will be one of the battlegrounds; languages gives us the categories we use to think. When we want to change how people think, we sometimes resort of what I call the flight of the euphemism. Black people should not be insulted for their race, so instead of the n-word we substitute colored. That word gradually takes on the meanings of the word it replaces, so we go with negro. That word becomes contaminated by the old meanings, so we go with black, then African-American. I think we make a little progress each time, because when people really want to be insulting they go back to the n-word.

    Meanings are constantly being contested, played with, and changed. Morals, thought, and language are all contested terrain. Sometimes those contesting the terrain seem like unlikely messengers. Locke was secretary to the governor of South Carolina when he set down his boss's thoughts in that state's constitution, which included chattel slavery. In addition, as a young man, he owned stock in the Royal African Company, which was in the business of buying slaves in Africa and shipping them to the new world. Later in life, in the Second Treatise of Government, he wrote about the conditions where slavery could be justified, and they were not the conditions he had been complicit in as a younger man. Only if someone committed a crime such that his life was forfeit could the punishment of slavery substitute for the death penalty. His views had changed so much that he had begun to argue that one should never be born into slavery. He seems to have been one of those rare people who become more radical as they get older.

    This is rare. Most of us become set in our ways, and sometimes it seems like society progresses one death at a time, as new generations try to fit themselves into the structure of society, and try to define themselves, changing the structures of language, morals, and society as they do.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    gotta tell you though, george, i'm not sure of your ad hoc history of human thought.

    quite possibly the first time somebody thought "slavery is wrong" was the first time someone was enslaved.

    but i don't know, i wasn't there.
    Pretty sure there have been slave revolts as long as there have been slaves.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    quite possibly the first time somebody thought "slavery is wrong" was the first time someone was enslaved.
    No, that was the first time someone thought "enslaving me is wrong".

    Pretty sure there have been slave revolts as long as there have been slaves.
    And when successful, one of the first things the ex-slaves did was acquire slaves of their own.

    The idea that enslaving anyone at all is wrong appeared around the Enlightenment, and not among ex-slaves. Among individuals who, though surrounded by slavery and told by the "collective consciousness" that it has always been thus, thought about it and decided it was wrong. Even though they themselves were at no risk of enslavement.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    No, that was the first time someone thought "enslaving me is wrong".



    And when successful, one of the first things the ex-slaves did was acquire slaves of their own.

    The idea that enslaving anyone at all is wrong appeared around the Enlightenment, and not among ex-slaves. Among individuals who, though surrounded by slavery and told by the "collective consciousness" that it has always been thus, thought about it and decided it was wrong. Even though they themselves were at no risk of enslavement.
    you are doing that thing where you make an assumption about how other people feel, and even have always felt. it's an extraordinary claim you make, that all down through human history, the first person to think "enslaving anyone at all is wrong" was not a slave him/herself. lol.

    and there were ancient greeks who, as recorded by aristotle, thought slavery was "contrary to god". lmgtfy.

    but, arguing over when or how any particular "original thought" is born, is a trivial deflection.

    how does a thought, like 'slavery is wrong', spread throughout a group. you never did answer, how a child "knows" things that, according to you, nobody in the history of human civilization even thought of until very recently.

    that is the relevant question. how do language, concepts, customs, mores, etc, change over time, to the point where even a child knows that slavery is wrong, or dogs are not for eating...or that gender pronouns are not based on sex organs?

    it is the relevant question, because the o.p. is about people reasoning (more or less) about oppressive language and customs. and your literal main point is that they are wasting their time trying to change that language and those customs among themselves, in the hope that new ideas will catch on, eventually replacing the old, in collective consciousness.

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