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Thread: The left's circular firing squad.

  1. #246
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    so if the vast majority fits into the 2 categories, why does everyone have to declare their obvious pronouns? it's just silly.
    I wasn't aware that "everyone" has to. Perhaps the leftist fascists everyone seems so afraid of have been more successful in Alabama, leaving you hiding behind drawn curtains, fearful of the consequences of breaking some progressive social norm you don't understand.

    Around here, we don't live in fear, and don't harbor resentment of simple things that others ask us to do because it might make their lives better at no cost to us. We have houses with no guns in them, we don't carry guns, and we aren't afraid that someone else is going to come along and force us to carry guns, either.

    Give up the fear, man. Your life will be better. My wife and I live at the edge of downtown in our small town, and haven't locked the doors in the 21 years we've owned our house. And putting "he/his" in an email signature at work would not make my life a living hell if it came to that--but it just might give someone else a small boost to see me taking their concerns about identity seriously.

    If you had personal connections to someone who doesn't fit neatly into a binary gender system, I suspect (hope!) you might become more empathetic.

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  2. #247
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    I wasn't aware that "everyone" has to. Perhaps the leftist fascists everyone seems so afraid of have been more successful in Alabama, leaving you hiding behind drawn curtains, fearful of the consequences of breaking some progressive social norm you don't understand.

    Around here, we don't live in fear, and don't harbor resentment of simple things that others ask us to do because it might make their lives better at no cost to us. We have houses with no guns in them, we don't carry guns, and we aren't afraid that someone else is going to come along and force us to carry guns, either.

    Give up the fear, man. Your life will be better. My wife and I live at the edge of downtown in our small town, and haven't locked the doors in the 21 years we've owned our house. And putting "he/his" in an email signature at work would not make my life a living hell if it came to that--but it just might give someone else a small boost to see me taking their concerns about identity seriously.

    If you had personal connections to someone who doesn't fit neatly into a binary gender system, I suspect (hope!) you might become more empathetic.

    Tom

    if i had a friend that declared they wanted me to use weird pronouns i would treat them like any of my friends and tell them they're an idiot.

  3. #248
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    if i had a friend that declared they wanted me to use weird pronouns i would treat them like any of my friends and tell them they're an idiot.
    You obviously haven't had a friend who didn't fall into one of the standard categories. I have. That's not an easy road, and if there's something I can do to make it a little easier, why not? Again, the golden rule, right?
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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  4. #249
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    To righties, the Golden Rule is "I got gold and want more."

  5. #250
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    I don't think that describes AlanMc.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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  6. #251
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    if i had a friend that declared they wanted me to use weird pronouns i would treat them like any of my friends and tell them they're an idiot.
    I guess my hope that experience might help you become more empathetic is baseless, then.

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  7. #252
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    in one culture, dogs are food, in another, dogs are practically on a moral par with human children. one might say that the concept of dog varies in the collective consciousness of various groups, no?
    But I can be part of Culture 1 and run a non-profit to protect dogs, and I can be in Culture 2 and viciously abuse my dog. I would then very much resent being lumped into the "collective consciousness" of my culture relating to dogs.

    Collective consciousness is just the sum of all the individual consciousnesses. If you want to change it you need to do it one at a time.

    OTOH,

    too much, too fast, too intentional.

    the process of changing shared concepts normally occurs more organically, through complex feedback, over time. although a top down imperative, like an "emancipation proclamation", can speed the process.

    the current culturally polarized atmosphere means public discourse is being ruled by extremes. on the left, the extreme manifests itself as the paralysis described in the o.p.
    I think we are in agreement!

  8. #253
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    AlanMc is a pretty weird name. Who knows how it is pronounced? We should call you something else, and if you don't like it you are an idiot.

    No offense, just being friendly.

  9. #254
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    if i had a friend that declared they wanted me to use weird pronouns i would treat them like any of my friends and tell them they're an idiot.
    I can only deduce from this that you think my “adopted” (his folks called him an abomination and kicked him out) trans son is an idiot.

    Sigh… I remember the good old days, when we could pick on fat people, too…

  10. #255
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    But I can be part of Culture 1 and run a non-profit to protect dogs, and I can be in Culture 2 and viciously abuse my dog. I would then very much resent being lumped into the "collective consciousness" of my culture relating to dogs.

    Collective consciousness is just the sum of all the individual consciousnesses. If you want to change it you need to do it one at a time.
    i will accept your limited definition of "collective consciousness".

    i never said that the collective consciousness is homogenous or static. it is neither.

    the examples you cite as diverse individuals can be seen as either signals of change to, or remnants of past, collective consciousness.

    an individual in culture #2 who changes his consciousness and decides to eat a dog would likely be considered mentally ill. but the entirety of culture #1 is not mentally ill, right?

    the notion that the collective consciousness changes "one at a time" is not intelligible. at what age do you posit that this agency starts? do you expect a toddler to develop his own concept of "dog", independently of social experience and instruction?

  11. #256
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    I can only deduce from this that you think my “adopted” (his folks called him an abomination and kicked him out) trans son is an idiot.

    Sigh… I remember the good old days, when we could pick on fat people, too…
    Interesting side note: I was having a discussion with a relative who is a strict evangelical Christian, and raising their kids that way. She was explaining that she does not "hate" gay or trans people, but that she can't approve or accept them because she has to judge them by God's standards, not her own. So she sends her kids to Christian schools to avoid the apparently rampant "indoctrination" that gay people and transgender people are, like, acceptable people.

    Not choosing to address other aspects of these issues at the moment, I simply said "If we grant your starting premises, you logic is unassailable. The Bible [at least the parts that evangelicals like to pay attention to--not so much the "Let he who is without sin throw the first stone" parts] does say that homosexuality is a sin.

    "But where does the Bible say that trans people are sinful for changing genders? And why do you lump the trans community with the gay community?"

    She had to think, and then admit that the Bible did not insist that trans people, or gender reassignment treatments, etc., were sinful. It had never occurred to her.

    I've been around enough people to realize that we are all, like, people and stuff. With rights. And deserving of respect and empathy, and kindness. Even (the horror!) people whose biological sex does not match their gender. None of them are any threat to anyone, any way.

    Tom
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  12. #257
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    I can only deduce from this that you think my “adopted” (his folks called him an abomination and kicked him out) trans son is an idiot.

    Sigh… I remember the good old days, when we could pick on fat people, too…
    there's a difference between "picking on fat people" and telling fat people they're unhealthy instead of "fat is beautiful, you do you!"

    i'm not kicking anyone out of my house for any of this stuff. if you want to "identify" as something else, that's fine. but you'll still be a man in women's clothes or vice versa, again... that's fine by me it's your life. but i don't have to participate in the delusion, and that's where the left has gone off the rails. it's not enough to "be nice" anymore, you have to agree with all of it or you're a bad person.

  13. #258
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Ah. So admitting that not everybody falls into the standard categories, that trans human beings actually exist, is "participating in the delusion". Go back to the 18th century where you came from, please.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Ah. So admitting that not everybody falls into the standard categories, that trans human beings actually exist, is "participating in the delusion". Go back to the 18th century where you came from, please.

    not denying trans people exist. not at all. i just don't' buy into the delusion that a transwoman IS a woman. you are a man that identifies as a woman. cool by me, i'll hang out with you and call you whatever you like to be called. we can be friends without me having to buy into the premise that since you feel like a woman, you ARE ONE. and 18th century? try 5 years ago.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    not denying trans people exist. not at all. i just don't' buy into the delusion that a transwoman IS a woman. you are a man that identifies as a woman. cool by me, i'll hang out with you and call you whatever you like to be called. we can be friends without me having to buy into the premise that since you feel like a woman, you ARE ONE. and 18th century? try 5 years ago.
    You've changed your tune. Which is it: you'll call people what they want to be called, or you'll call people idiots? Can't have it both ways.

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  16. #261
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Maybe. What harm? If that's the worst thing you have to complain about, you're doing very well indeed. Again, the principle is to treat everybody with dignity and respect, whether they fall into one of the standard categories or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    I wasn't aware that "everyone" has to. Perhaps the leftist fascists everyone seems so afraid of have been more successful in Alabama, leaving you hiding behind drawn curtains, fearful of the consequences of breaking some progressive social norm you don't understand.

    Around here, we don't live in fear, and don't harbor resentment of simple things that others ask us to do because it might make their lives better at no cost to us. We have houses with no guns in them, we don't carry guns, and we aren't afraid that someone else is going to come along and force us to carry guns, either.

    Give up the fear, man. Your life will be better. My wife and I live at the edge of downtown in our small town, and haven't locked the doors in the 21 years we've owned our house. And putting "he/his" in an email signature at work would not make my life a living hell if it came to that--but it just might give someone else a small boost to see me taking their concerns about identity seriously.

    If you had personal connections to someone who doesn't fit neatly into a binary gender system, I suspect (hope!) you might become more empathetic.

    Tom
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    You've changed your tune. Which is it: you'll call people what they want to be called, or you'll call people idiots? Can't have it both ways.

    Tom
    i can't do both?

    that's really just for the absurd pronoun additions. zer/xe crap. get outta here with that garbage

  18. #263
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    i can't do both?

    that's really just for the absurd pronoun additions. zer/xe crap. get outta here with that garbage
    Ah, ok. So you won't call people what they want to be called. You were lying in post #260, then?

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    there's a difference between "picking on fat people" and telling fat people they're unhealthy instead of "fat is beautiful, you do you!"

    i'm not kicking anyone out of my house for any of this stuff. if you want to "identify" as something else, that's fine. but you'll still be a man in women's clothes or vice versa, again... that's fine by me it's your life. but i don't have to participate in the delusion, and that's where the left has gone off the rails. it's not enough to "be nice" anymore, you have to agree with all of it or you're a bad person.
    It comes down to the use of social force, which has been known to go to extremes.
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Ah, ok. So you won't call people what they want to be called. You were lying in post #260, then?

    Tom


    ha!

    let's play that game then.

    hi, my name is Princess Cleotharniarabblemeister of Gobbldygookenheim. my preferred pronouns are fartahamstershire and theregustenwooten. call me anything else and YOU SIR are a bigot and overall bad person. now step in line and start remembering all that.

  21. #266
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    ha!

    let's play that game then.

    hi, my name is Princess Cleotharniarabblemeister of Gobbldygookenheim. my preferred pronouns are fartahamstershire and theregustenwooten. call me anything else and YOU SIR are a bigot and overall bad person. now step in line and start remembering all that.

    oh, and today i'm identifying as a blind alpaca. check in later this afternoon or tomorrow and see what mood i'm in. and don't forget, you're a BIGOT if you don't

  22. #267
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    If you think Kendi is wrong about that, please explain how to undo multiple generations of opportunities lost due to racist policies without some kind of aid, policy, or opportunity targeted at those who are behind, to help them catch up.
    "Discrimination" in the realm of law and policy has a very sharply limited meaning, as it must to fulfill its function, i.e. to make a binary distinction between what is legal and what isn't.

    Professor Kendi, being a professor in the realm of law and policy, knows this. He must have simply overlooked putting it in his books about law and policy.

    Adding to the examples given by Sandtown, here's another: tax brackets. Bracket A pays more, B pays less. It's discriminatory -- in a sense so broad as to make the usage useless. In any case it's not discriminatory based on race, religion, etc.

    Following Kendi's logic, it could be argued that tax brackets are anti-racist because they relieve, at least partially, the racially disproportionate burden of government. Similar to your baby bonds proposal, except that for some reason you admit that such a law must have no intentionally racial basis. But racially disparate impact (without racist intent) can also violate the law, as the law has long recognized. Ironically, CRT comes along and says, we have to remedy the unintentional racism -- which is our main complaint -- under a cloak of unintentional racism.

    But in order to be anti-racist discrimination -- Kendi's term, what he advocates -- there would have to be tax brackets, or baby bonds, based on race. And that would violate the Constitution.

    Otherwise, what you have is liberal democracy providing for the general welfare, without racial discrimination. We already have that. What does CRT add?

    As for the argument, "But without anti-racist racial discrimination, what remedy can we employ?", the answer is, whatever you can think of that wouldn't be illegal. We live under limited government. Not being able to think up something better is not an exception to the limits. "We couldn't think of a way to do it without violating your right of free speech. So sorry."
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  23. #268
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    It's entirely possible to have a policy that is both legally non-discriminatory under our current system, and yet is anti-racist by Kendi's definition.

    If you can quote Kendi advocating an illegally discriminatory policy, please do. I'm not aware that he has done so. His focus is generally on the outcome of a policy, and not on the intention. So I doubt he's calling for illegal policies. Maybe I missed it.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    ha!

    let's play that game then.

    hi, my name is Princess Cleotharniarabblemeister of Gobbldygookenheim. my preferred pronouns are fartahamstershire and theregustenwooten. call me anything else and YOU SIR are a bigot and overall bad person. now step in line and start remembering all that.
    Got it. You were lying. Thanks for the clarification.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Got it. You were lying. Thanks for the clarification.

    Tom


    if that's your take, fine by me. doesn't change the delusions you're living in.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Come gather 'round people
    Wherever you roam
    And admit that the waters
    Around you have grown
    And accept it that soon
    You'll be drenched to the bone
    If your time to you is worth savin'
    And you better start swimmin'
    Or you'll sink like a stone
    For the times they are a-changin'

    Come writers and critics
    Who prophesize with your pen
    And keep your eyes wide
    The chance won't come again
    And don't speak too soon
    For the wheel's still in spin
    And there's no tellin' who
    That it's namin'
    For the loser now
    Will be later to win
    For the times they are a-changin'

    Come senators, congressmen
    Please heed the call
    Don't stand in the doorway
    Don't block up the hall
    For he that gets hurt
    Will be he who has stalled
    The battle outside ragin'
    Will soon shake your windows
    And rattle your walls
    For the times they are a-changin'

    Come mothers and fathers
    Throughout the land
    And don't criticize
    What you can't understand

    Your sons and your daughters
    Are beyond your command
    Your old road is rapidly agin'
    Please get out of the new one
    If you can't lend your hand
    For the times they are a-changin'

    The line it is drawn
    The curse it is cast
    The slow one now
    Will later be fast
    As the present now
    Will later be past
    The order is rapidly fadin'
    And the first one now
    Will later be last
    For the times they are a-changin'

    ~bob dylan

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    hey, this stanza called to my mind the very careful testimony of ketanji brown jackson, when it was demanded of her that she define "woman".

    And don't speak too soon
    For the wheel's still in spin
    And there's no tellin' who
    That it's namin'


    it's not that justice jackson doesn't have thoughts on it, i'm sure. but she is slow to answer, because collectively, we are experimenting with the notion of "woman". it's not an individual decision, what a word means. it's collective, and always in flux.

    it's not trivial, it's not nonsense. it only appears that way if you are the proverbial stick in the mud.

    the concept of "woman" has changed dramatically several times in the last hundred years, you just don't comprehend it. because it was brought to you through the collective consciousness. you didn't build it, and you've never thought about it, so you can't see it.

  28. #273
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    ah, women... they're just a concept.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Look, Alan, it's really not that complicated. Most people really can be divided into two classes, one with two X chromosomes, ovaries, and a uterus, one with XY chromosomes and testicles. Not all , however; there are all sorts of ways to categorize people, and some people don't fit into those categories. Also the social categories 'men' and women' are not the same thing as the biological ones, although they sort of correlate. Not that long ago, 'men' would mean 'can vote and hold office and serve in the military'. Social ideas about men and women and their roles are not the same thing as biology, not laws of nature. Our language happens to have two words for people, but that's also not a law of nature; it's something we made up. Nature doesn't care what we think or what words we use.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Look, Alan, it's really not that complicated. Most people really can be divided into two classes, one with two X chromosomes, ovaries, and a uterus, one with XY chromosomes and testicles. Not all , however; there are all sorts of ways to categorize people, and some people don't fit into those categories. Also the social categories 'men' and women' are not the same thing as the biological ones, although they sort of correlate. Not that long ago, 'men' would mean 'can vote and hold office and serve in the military'. Social ideas about men and women and their roles are not the same thing as biology, not laws of nature. Our language happens to have two words for people, but that's also not a law of nature; it's something we made up. Nature doesn't care what we think or what words we use.

    so, what IS a woman?

  31. #276
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    A word in the English language.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    ah, women... they're just a concept.
    what's funny is the loudest squawking coming from politically far right women, those captives of the traditional, christian, patriarchy.

    "woman means the same thing it always has!" as if the concept of "woman" hasn't changed dramatically in recent history. just a little over a century ago these same women would not have been allowed to vote.

    woman once meant 'servant of man'. there are cultures still extant where that concept of 'woman' still thrives. there are some in our western culture, even some women, who would still have it that way.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    A word in the English language.

    can you provide a definition for me?

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Some interesting posts here, but what I do not see is any real sort of leftie "circular firing squad".

    Mostly it is righties giving unhelpful advice.

    Why would anyone expect the left to agree on everything ?

    That is not how things work.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    CNBC host Joe Kernen grilled a congressman over the Democrats' excuses for increasing inflation and high gas prices.

    Democratic Rep. Hakeem Jeffries of New York appeared on Kernen's show on Tuesday just ahead of a new report that showed inflation worsening instead of improving. Jeffries tried to offer talking points as an excuse for inflation, but Kernen bulldozed through them and pressured him to take responsibility.

    “In this country, we’re still down front from peak production. You don’t you think there’s anything that you can do in Congress or to convince a Biden administration, you don’t think there’s any regulations that need to be eased? You don’t think there’s any offshore activity?” asked Kernen.
    “You don’t take any responsibility? It’s just all a ‘Putin price hike’?” he added.

    “Yeah, part of the challenge domestically in terms of production is that the oil and gas companies have refused to actually act on the permits to drill that they currently ...” Jeffries began to respond.

    Don't miss out on content from Dave Rubin free of big tech censorship. Listen to The Rubin Report now.
    Kernen blasted the talking point as a "red herring" and explained why he thought the excuse was unreasonable.

    “So there’s leases. There’s, you know, there’s also just the overall pressure from ESG and the green lobby about whether an oil company is going to make plans five or 10 years down the road when, you know, a large part of the population wants to put them out of business completely,” Kernen said.


    Jeffries went on to blame corporations for their high profit margins which didn't persuade Kernen much.

    On Wednesday, the Labor Department issued its latest consumer price index report that found inflation in June rising to 9.1% on an annual basis. The stock market dropped farther as a result of the report that many took as a sign that the economy was sinking into a recession.

    Many economists say that the high spending policies of the Democrats worsened inflation despite other causes like the pandemic and the invasion of Ukraine. A recent poll found that many Americans were unconvinced by the excuses the Biden administration was making for high inflation.

    Here's part of the video of Kernen debating Jeffries:

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