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Thread: The left's circular firing squad.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    You are much too polite; I think far cruder terms are warranted. But what do I know? I'm just an engineer, and I need to design things that actually work.
    Works/doesn't work, who's to say? The oppressor? So very binary; you are a dupe upholding white supremacy.
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Deconstructivists are particularly eager to immunize themselves against criticism. I knew a guy in grad school who was into deconstruction, so I asked what it is. He said that was an improper question. Derrida insisted that it was not a system, or a method, or anything else that could be critiqued.
    They have the authority to immunize themselves against my criticism, i.e. to govern me, only if I grant that authority to them. I refuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    In fact, critical theory is so distrustful of the structure of language, they sometimes use strange phrasing to try to communicate things they think language is constrained from saying. Don't ask for examples, if I could explain what they are saying They would insist that my bourgeois use of language was making it impossible for me to understand them, and in fact I would say they resist being understood, because then it would be possible for others to critique them.
    Yep. The power play. Key concept: bourgeois. Substitute "systemic oppressor" and you have CRT and wokeness in general, Marxism with a new terminology. Because, after all, "THe point is not to interpret reality, but to change it."

    Like the Inquisition, they purport to speak from a purportedly unquestionable moral position. Like the Inquisition, they can FO.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    The roots of this go back to literature. Samuel Beckett said that he was trying to get beyond language. That's a bit like a woodworker saying he wants to get beyond wood and tools.

    I find it extremely tiresome.
    The roots go back to Hegel and Marx, who buffaloed the writers. Overthrow of the existing order was too much to ask of mere class consciousness, so, they've switched to linguistics. The goal remains the same. The residue of Marxism remains. Overthrow the structures! If you can't get a revolution on through labor organizing, try literature. Try it all. Music theory. White girl, take off your hoops. Newton's Principia is a rape manual. E = mc2 is a sexed equation. So many ways the oppressor oppresses. Structures everywhere.

    Would you board an aircraft in an airport designed and run by this rabble of grifters and sycophants? Power-seeking anti-rationalists? Mr. Woke Bro in the control tower, at the CAD station?
    Last edited by Osborne Russell; 07-12-2022 at 10:55 PM.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    They have the authority to immunize themselves against my criticism, i.e. to govern me, only if I grant that authority to them. I refuse.



    Yep. The power play. Key concept: bourgeois. Substitute "systemic oppressor" and you have CRT and wokeness in general, Marxism with a new terminology. Because, after all, "THe point is not to interpret reality, but to change it."

    Like the Inquisition, they purport to speak from a purportedly unquestionable moral position. Like the Inquisition, they can FO.



    The roots go back to Hegel and Marx, who buffaloed the writers. Overthrow of the existing order was too much to ask of mere class consciousness, so, they've switched to linguistics. The goal remains the same. The residue of Marxism remains. Overthrow the structures! If you can't get a revolution on through labor organizing, try literature. Try it all. Music theory. White girl, take off your hoops. Newton's Principia is a rape manual. E = mc2 is a sexed equation. So many ways the oppressor oppresses. Structures everywhere.

    Would you board an aircraft in an airport designed and run by this rabble of grifters and sycophants? Power-seeking anti-rationalists? Mr. Woke Bro in the control tower, at the CAD station?
    Nobody is going to ask Derrida to design an aircraft.

    Hegel was a liberal, Marx was a Marxist, both preceded structuralism and critical theory. I really don't like it when people blame the sins of modern theorists on the people they claimed to be influenced by. None of America's founding fathers would have called themselves capitalists, but they get blamed for capitalism. Neither Marx nor Hegel was a critical theorist, but you blame them for critical theory. How is that fair?

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Those are all part of the Democratic platform, so they come under the moderate label.
    I enjoy many of your posts, but disagree here . . .

    You seem to be insisting that all Dems, both those in favor and opposed to M4A, are all part of the Dem platform . . .

    and that makes no sense at all.

    THIS is the Dem platform https://democrats.org/where-we-stand/party-platform/

    So-called "moderates" who oppose M4A and Women's choice ARE NOT IN LINE WITH THE PLATFORM.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    I'm just an engineer, and I need to design things that actually work.
    You know, the best way to fix machines that don't work is to change the names of the parts. But it only works if you force everyone to use the new name.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Nobody is going to ask Derrida to design an aircraft.

    Hegel was a liberal, Marx was a Marxist, both preceded structuralism and critical theory. I really don't like it when people blame the sins of modern theorists on the people they claimed to be influenced by. None of America's founding fathers would have called themselves capitalists, but they get blamed for capitalism. Neither Marx nor Hegel was a critical theorist, but you blame them for critical theory. How is that fair?
    It's fair because it's accurate. Modern theorists claim the influence. Marx and Hegel aren't around to argue the point, but they intended to have influence, and they did. Someone had to develop the thoughts, from the source, and they have. Those developments in turn have their influence. Whether M&H foresaw all or any of it is beside the point. It happens and it keeps on happening. The influence lives on.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    You know, the best way to fix machines that don't work is to change the names of the parts. But it only works if you force everyone to use the new name.


    And cancel the old white guy that designed them to carry out oppression.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    I enjoy many of your posts, but disagree here . . .

    You seem to be insisting that all Dems, both those in favor and opposed to M4A, are all part of the Dem platform . . .

    and that makes no sense at all.

    THIS is the Dem platform https://democrats.org/where-we-stand/party-platform/

    So-called "moderates" who oppose M4A and Women's choice ARE NOT IN LINE WITH THE PLATFORM.
    Vanishingly few Democrats oppose choice, and those that do I would call conservative. There is nothing moderate about opposing choice. Medicare for all is only one way to achieve 'universal, affordable, quality healthcare,' which is what is actually in the platform. Following the link you provided, the platform seems to emphasize adding a public option to the affordable care act instead.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Vanishingly few Democrats oppose choice, and those that do I would call conservative.
    They are a sub-species of Democrats - a few also oppose letting Medicare negotiate prescription drug prices.

    My point is that they anything but "moderate".

    Call them what you want, but "corporatists" works for me.

    One of them got knocked off in a Oregon primary a few weeks ago - good !!

    https://www.politico.com/news/2022/0...imary-00035728

    Politico also calls Schrader "centrist" and "moderate" for opposing his own party's platform

    Grrrrrr

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    You know, the best way to fix machines that don't work is to change the names of the parts. But it only works if you force everyone to use the new name.
    funny, but of course it actually reflects no truth about the role of language in consciousness, and therefore in culture.

    i was raised in an english-speaking culture that, shortly before my birth, relegated the term "negro" to the dustbin of history. i knew of the term, and understood why it was no longer used. and it mattered to the way that i and my cohort (even in the lily white rural north of my youth) thought about people of black african ancestry.

    it does matter how we talk about things. by talking, we share concepts and ideas, and develop a collective, social consciousness. often, a word will become so laden by prejudices that it is a shorter route to a more enlightened social consciousness to force a change in nomenclature.

    or maybe you think it makes no difference? maybe you'd like to demonstrate by using the word "negro" in casual conversation. use it to address african americans instead of the "new name". let me know how it goes.

    obviously, i am speaking of the u.s.a. and other english speaking countries. in latin america, the rules on that particular term are different.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    funny, but of course it actually reflects no truth about the role of language in consciousness, and therefore in culture.

    it does matter how we talk about things. .
    It sure does. Take "de-fund the police" vs "de-militarize the police" for example.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post

    i was raised in an english-speaking culture that, shortly before my birth, relegated the term "negro" to the dustbin of history.
    Did that end racism?

    Did it stop blacks from being offended and called names by white racists?



    use it to address african americans


    Another dust-binned term. More progress?

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    oh, those silly black people, demanding to be called something other than what they were called while enslaved. welp, they failed to end racism, wasn't that a lot of wasted effort.

    thankfully you are here, george, to explain how society actually progresses against prejudices: by the philosophical ponderings of a few contemplatives--deep thinkers like yourself, we assume--who then tell the rest of us, "hey, you shouldn't be prejudiced", and voila. bam, enlightenment!

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    oh, those silly black people, demanding to be called something other than what they were called while enslaved.
    Eh? Not all that long ago 'negro' was the enlightened and polite term, generally preferred by the folks to whom it referred over the then-current alternatives. It was certainly not common in the 1850s, nor the early 20th century. Then it was replaced by 'black' (which used to be an insult, but was reclaimed) and then 'African-American'. 'Afro-American' never really caught on. No problem; I'm fine with calling folks whatever they prefer, and avoiding racial insults is certainly a very good thing. But after several changes of terminology, one might justifiably be skeptical of whether it has much effect.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 07-13-2022 at 05:58 PM.
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    it's great being an old white dude. immune to prejudiced insult. free to think that everyone lives in our world, where words have no power.

    you guys are silly.

    give me your theory on how the collective consciousness changes.

    how do we go from nearly everyone in a population thinking that people of a particular race are akin to draft animals, subject to enslavement and any manner of indignity, to a population a few generations later which elevates one of that same race to the most powerful leadership position on the planet?

    tell me all about that process, how we managed it without crushing the expression of prejudice in public discourse.

    as i have noted, the reactionaries are pushing hard to undue that crushing of their right to say whatever foul **** occurs to them. the elevation of the pussy grabber was no coincidence. "he's saying what i'm thinking! it's not racist/misogynist/homophobic if it's true!"
    Last edited by L.W. Baxter; 07-13-2022 at 06:30 PM.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Eh? Not all that long ago 'negro' was the enlightened and polite term, generally preferred by the folks to whom it referred over the then-current alternatives. It was certainly not common in the 1850s, nor the early 20th century. Then it was replaced by 'black' (which used to be an insult, but was reclaimed) and then 'African-American'. 'Afro-American' never really caught on. No problem; I'm fine with calling folks whatever they prefer, and avoiding racial insults is certainly a very good thing. But after several changes of terminology, one might justifiably be skeptical of whether it has much effect.
    this is a good object lesson in the dynamics of language and power.

    who decided it was the "polite term", and who rejected it. why was it rejected. what did it mean when they rejected it.

    i think you are wrong about how common the word "negro" was in 1850, and the early 20th century. i have a primary source sitting in front of me, copyright 1878...

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    it's great being an old white dude. immune to prejudiced insult, free to think that everyone lives in our world, where words have no power.
    Too ironic. Mr Baxter says 'old white dudes' are 'immune to prejudiced insult', then insults them for sins supposedly characteristic of 'old white dudes'; i.e. a prejudiced insult, if a minor one.

    But really, you seem to be trying altogether too hard to start an argument. Language does indeed matter, and I never said it didn't, although it may have less effect than some would imagine or like. My crack about 'making things that work' was about the likes of Derrida, nothing at all to do with what you were talking about.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    They are a sub-species of Democrats - a few also oppose letting Medicare negotiate prescription drug prices.

    My point is that they anything but "moderate".

    Call them what you want, but "corporatists" works for me.

    One of them got knocked off in a Oregon primary a few weeks ago - good !!

    https://www.politico.com/news/2022/0...imary-00035728

    Politico also calls Schrader "centrist" and "moderate" for opposing his own party's platform

    Grrrrrr
    I have no idea why the sort of people who used to be called conservative Democrats are now called 'centrists' or 'moderates,' when they are nowhere near the center of the spectrum of Democratic candidates. Perhaps it has something to do with branding.

    I went to Schrader's website to see where he stood on the issues, only to find out that there's nothing about issues on his site. It's all about constituent service. Not a good sign when a candidate doesn't want to talk about the issues.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Too ironic. Mr Baxter says 'old white dudes' are 'immune to prejudiced insult', then insults them for sins supposedly characteristic of 'old white dudes'; i.e. a prejudiced insult, if a minor one.
    not ironic at all. just proves the point. did the insult hurt? did it make you feel like you don't belong, or suspect that others wonder if you earned your position, etc.?

    you are immune, and so am i, to class insults. like water off a duck's back. that is our privilege, and our power. there's nothing you can say to hurt me, based on my identity. a personal insult, sure. but you want to take a swipe at the fact that i'm a straight white male? don't make me laugh.

    even when we don't belong in some foreign place, we still expect deference. and we are mostly granted it. and when we are not, well, that's how wars start.

    so when an old white dude super generously says "I'm fine with calling folks whatever they prefer, and avoiding racial insults is certainly a very good thing. But..." whatever comes after the but is some condescending bullsquat.

    i didn't start an argument with you, derrida nothing. you strayed from that right away. my post that you quoted was aimed at george. and you started off with "Eh?", so here comes an earful.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    funny, but of course it actually reflects no truth about the role of language in consciousness, and therefore in culture.

    i was raised in an english-speaking culture that, shortly before my birth, relegated the term "negro" to the dustbin of history . . . obviously, i am speaking of the u.s.a. and other english speaking countries. in latin america, the rules on that particular term are different.
    I heard it only yesterday. What other languages still use "negro" to describe humans? What about negro people that aren't American? Afro-Dutchmen?

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    it does matter how we talk about things. by talking, we share concepts and ideas, and develop a collective, social consciousness. often, a word will become so laden by prejudices that it is a shorter route to a more enlightened social consciousness to force a change in nomenclature.
    Yes but, careful with the force. In government it runs immediately into the right to free speech -- which means as a legitimate political issue, it's DOA. Privately, maybe immediately, maybe more slowly. Careful.
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    And, ladies and gentlemen, here we go again; the circular firing squad reloads and blasts away one more time.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Too ironic. Mr Baxter says 'old white dudes' are 'immune to prejudiced insult', then insults them for sins supposedly characteristic of 'old white dudes'; i.e. a prejudiced insult, if a minor one.

    But really, you seem to be trying altogether too hard to start an argument. Language does indeed matter, and I never said it didn't, although it may have less effect than some would imagine or like. My crack about 'making things that work' was about the likes of Derrida, nothing at all to do with what you were talking about.
    Such are the "dynamics" in the parlance of our times. How are people supposed to get through life without some accepted form of bigotry? And hey, old white males deserve it. CRT, the only remedy, puttin' the world to rights.

    The only remedy to racist discrimination is antiracist discrimination. The only remedy to past discrimination is present discrimination.

    -- Ibram X. Kendi
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    And, ladies and gentlemen, here we go again; the circular firing squad reloads and blasts away one more time.
    One might think that the liberal left and the anti-liberal left are in some sense antagonistic to each other.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    One might think that the liberal left and the anti-liberal left are in some sense antagonistic to each other.
    One might. But I doubt that Mr Baxter, or George., or me, or you, are members of the anti-liberal left.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    I have no idea why the sort of people who used to be called conservative Democrats are now called 'centrists' or 'moderates,' when they are nowhere near the center of the spectrum of Democratic candidates. Perhaps it has something to do with branding.

    I went to Schrader's website to see where he stood on the issues, only to find out that there's nothing about issues on his site. It's all about constituent service. Not a good sign when a candidate doesn't want to talk about the issues.
    Schrader has always been a smidgeon more liberal than his constituency. And a bit too prone to attempting compromise when it isn't really called for. My sense is that he got worn down over the years, lazier, and simply succumbed to the ever-present blandishments of corporate lobbyists and donors. Tired of swimming upstream. Not sure he is heartbroken to be pushed out.
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    anybody who thinks i represent in any way the anti-liberal left in this conversation needs a liberal enema.

    old hippies can turn cultural reactionary. happens all the time.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Such are the "dynamics" in the parlance of our times. How are people supposed to get through life without some accepted form of bigotry? And hey, old white males deserve it. CRT, the only remedy, puttin' the world to rights.
    The only remedy to racist discrimination is antiracist discrimination. The only remedy to past discrimination is present discrimination.

    -- Ibram X. Kendi
    If you think Kendi is wrong about that, please explain how to undo multiple generations of opportunities lost due to racist policies without some kind of aid, policy, or opportunity targeted at those who are behind, to help them catch up. Let's make it easy--keep it to wealth accumulation.

    In 2019 the median white household held $188,200 in wealth—7.8 times that of the typical Black household ($24,100; figure 1).
    Brookings

    If you don't "discriminate" by providing a boost to those who need it, and not to those who have already had their boost, how will that gap be closed? Most families use home ownership as their primary means of wealth accumulation. But Black families were excluded from that opportunity--excluded for multiple generations--by redlining, etc. That's a huge part of why the disparity in wealth between white and Black families exists. Stopping redlining and similar racist policies will never help anyone catch up. Given the current tax system that rewards non-wage income earners, and those who inherit large sums, stopping racist policies won't even prevent the wealth gap from continuing to grow.

    Baby bonds have been proposed as one way to address the race wealth gap--targeted by income, not race, but effectively providing more aid to non-whites because more non-whites are poor.

    If you bothered to understand Kendi's arguments before critiquing them, you'll recognize that this is exactly what he means by "anti-racist policy." Kendi argues that it is the effect of the policy, and not the intention, that makes it racist or anti-racist. And since an income-limited financial benefit would help more non-whites than whites, it falls into the anti-racist category. It tends to increase equality by race; racist policies (whatever their intent) are those that increase inequality by race.

    In short, you either don't seem to understand Kendi, or you are not interested in engaging with his actual claims and arguments because it doesn't match the simplistic "critical race theory is anti-liberal" narrative you are so fond of.

    But to argue credibly against Kendi and other anti-racist thinkers, you're going to have to argue against what they actually say and mean, and not your reductive misrepresentations of their arguments.

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    Last edited by WI-Tom; 07-13-2022 at 10:10 PM.
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    If you think Kendi is wrong about that, please explain how to undo multiple generations of opportunities lost due to racist policies without some kind of aid, policy, or opportunity targeted at those who are behind, to help them catch up. Let's make it easy--keep it to wealth accumulation.
    That is a really silly argument, akin to saying that paying taxes for schools is discrimination.

    Does our sail club discriminate by having scholarships for low income and minority kids learning to sail ??

    Libertard dumbness sez I

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    give me your theory on how the collective consciousness changes.
    One individual consciousness at a time. There is no such thing as "collective consciousness".


    how we managed it without crushing the expression of prejudice in public discourse.
    You have crushed the expression of prejudice in public discourse? Funny, nobody noticed. If anything there seems to be a backlash of even more prejudice in public discourse lately.

    But who am I to tell Dom Quixote that he didn't actually slay any giants?

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    One individual consciousness at a time. There is no such thing as "collective consciousness".
    i will admit that my use of the term is loose. and in the more academic uses it tends to the theoretical, akin to and overlapping with notions like "evolutionary psychology" in the potential for abuse.

    but by collective consciousness i mean nothing mystical. i mean it to serve as a catch-all term for perfectly self-evident phenomena.

    for instance, the ability to communicate with language requires a shared understanding of the meaning of words. we are born with the capacity for language, but not the words. we don't individually invent or decide what a word means; we learn from the usage of others, and develop a similar concept of meaning.

    if there is a different word for such phenomena that you are more comfortable with, let me know.

    anyway, here is wikipedia definition.

    collective consciousness is "the set of shared beliefs, ideas, and moral attitudes which operate as a unifying force within society"..."a shared understanding of social norms."

    our ability to share concepts, beyond being simply basic and indispensible for human social arrangement, is at the root of culture.

    for example: in one culture, dogs are food, in another, dogs are practically on a moral par with human children. one might say that the concept of dog varies in the collective consciousness of various groups, no?

    what word or phrase can we use to describe and explain such cultural differences, if collective consciousness (loosely defined) doesn't exist? honest question.

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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    i don't know how the left makes it through the day anymore with the non-stop language/culture shifts. birthing people, men that menstruate, LBGTQJLKHASDCOIYSD, TERFS, all the genders, pronouns...... you've really jumped the shark fellas.

  32. #242
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    yes. too much, too fast, too intentional.

    the process of changing shared concepts normally occurs more organically, through complex feedback, over time. although a top down imperative, like an "emancipation proclamation", can speed the process.

    the current culturally polarized atmosphere means public discourse is being ruled by extremes. on the left, the extreme manifests itself as the paralysis described in the o.p.

  33. #243
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    . . . you've really jumped the shark fellas.
    Oh, don't be silly. The vast majority of people still fit into one of the standard categories. While the left certainly has its share of dumbassery, almost all the gender stuff can be summarized by the old truth that we should treat people as we'd want to be treated, or at least not treat other people in ways we wouldn't them to treat us.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  34. #244
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Oh, don't be silly. The vast majority of people still fit into one of the standard categories. While the left certainly has its share of dumbassery, almost all the gender stuff can be summarized by the old truth that we should treat people as we'd want to be treated, or at least not treat other people in ways we wouldn't them to treat us.

    so if the vast majority fits into the 2 categories, why does everyone have to declare their obvious pronouns? it's just silly.

  35. #245
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    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    so if the vast majority fits into the 2 categories, why does everyone have to declare their obvious pronouns? it's just silly.
    Maybe. What harm? If that's the worst thing you have to complain about, you're doing very well indeed. Again, the principle is to treat everybody with dignity and respect, whether they fall into one of the standard categories or not.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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