Page 1 of 10 12 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 35 of 340

Thread: The left's circular firing squad.

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cantão - Brazil
    Posts
    16,652

    Default The left's circular firing squad.

    A good NYT article about the confusion on the left today. We ourselves observe some of this in our small niche. And I, of course, get plenty of "friendly fire" here in the bilge.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/29/o...lanthropy.html

    According to Grim (and these other reports), disputes over diversity, equity and inclusion — over doctrine, language and strategies — have paralyzed much of the left advocacy and nonprofit sector.
    The article cites lots of people, but Stephen Pinker nails it as usual:



    much of the recent escalation is due to three deeply rooted beliefs of today’s woke left: One is that progress comes from struggle — a good force defeating an evil force, rather than problem-solving — diagnosing the inevitable ills of something as complex as a modern society (including people and factions who disagree with you) and implementing remedies. The second is the belief that systems of oppression are implemented not in overt policies like Jim Crow laws but in subtle patterns in language and visual symbols that insidiously instill unconscious bias in everyone. To make things better, one has to root out and marginalize the perpetrators of this pervasive oppression, rather than just outarguing an opposing faction. A third, shared by their strange bedfellows on the populist right, is that democratic liberal society is unreformable — the system is so corrupt and decadent that it must be razed to the ground, because anything that rises out of the ashes will be better than what we have now.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Wrocław, Poland
    Posts
    12,800

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Pfft. His first 2 points (well, his second point, anyway) are arguably correct (although the tired "woke left" label is ridiculous), but just who does he think is advocating "razing" anything to the ground to rebuild from the ashes?

    What I see in what passes for "the left" in the U.S. (which is mainstream liberal anywhere else) is people working hard to reform the system, not destroy it. People trying to implement remedies for systemic problems, which is exactly what he says ought to be done. Maybe we're looking at different people.

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cantão - Brazil
    Posts
    16,652

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Tom, the article is about staff at progressive institutions arguing about language and stuff and going at each other instead of pursuing their institutional mission. Try reading it.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Wrocław, Poland
    Posts
    12,800

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Tom, the article is about staff at progressive institutions arguing about language and stuff and going at each other instead of pursuing their institutional mission. Try reading it.
    Pfft. Not interested. I'm with Baxter on this. Falling back on thoughtless condemnations like "woke left" pretty much removes all credibility. There are plenty of dysfunctional progressive institutions, believe me. I've worked for them at times.

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    38,897

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    I'm coming to believe that when people use memes like "woke" what it really says is, "I can't explain my thinking in adult language, so I'll use a meme and hope it carries me along."
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

    "Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." - Will Rogers

    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - Groucho Marx

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    9,906

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    How to amend the constitution.

    1. Form alliances with people who hold different beliefs.
    2. Amend constitution.

    Progress to date. None.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    4,577

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    I'm coming to believe that when people use memes like "woke" what it really says is, "I can't explain my thinking in adult language, so I'll use a meme and hope it carries me along."
    Mr Smith nails it one perfect expository sentence.
    "Unrepentant Reprobate"
    Lew Barrett



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    ottawa, canada
    Posts
    4,344

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    I'm not even sure you guys have a left wing. The DNC certainly isn't it.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    58,092

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    I do get the impression that a lot of people using "woke" as a pejorative do not really know the dictionary meaning of the word.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    seattle
    Posts
    21,614

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    I agree with most responses here. I’m a big Stephen Pinker fan, but at the term “woke left” the credibility of that blurb went out the window. I can only surmise that he wrote that a few years ago before the term had been so thoroughly abused. If not, I’m disappointed.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    61,543

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    And here, ladies and gentlemen, we have a perfect example. Tom and Mr. Baxter and George. and Peerie Maa and I agree about 95%, and probably 99% on all the really important things, yet posting an article about how the left is overly reactive to minor differences produces a nasty heated reaction about minor differences.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Farmington, Oregon
    Posts
    20,015

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    I do get the impression that a lot of people using "woke" as a pejorative do not really know the dictionary meaning of the word.
    the dictionary definition is just semantics. who cares.

    their failure is internal logic, an inability to create and keep their own definition, in their own minds and among themselves. to understand what their own pejorative is meant to ridicule.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Northwest Oregon coast
    Posts
    30,917

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    And here, ladies and gentlemen, we have a perfect example. Tom and Mr. Baxter and George. and Peerie Maa and I agree about 95%, and probably 99% on all the really important things, yet posting an article about how the left is overly reactive to minor differences produces a nasty heated reaction about minor differences.
    .

    With only me and a few other conservatives left here the only choice left is to turn on each other.. im stocked up on popcorn.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Kitty Hawk, NC
    Posts
    11,730

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    A good NYT article about the confusion on the left today.
    The left has a problem in that it is too inclusive. That leads to a wide range of opinions. That leads to discord.
    Life is complex.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Northwest Oregon coast
    Posts
    30,917

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    I do get the impression that a lot of people using "woke" as a pejorative do not really know the dictionary meaning of the word.
    .

    No lib here will admit to being woke..

    Every one here is a centrist..

    Never mind blowing up the constitution, throwing supremes out , kangaroo trials, etc.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Woodbridge, Suffolk, UK
    Posts
    27,559

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    I am annoyed at the ceaseless sniping at JK Rowling. Her children’s books have a multi/ethnic bunch of children and a gay head teacher but she suggested that women’s toilets should be for women and now she is demonised.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Farmington, Oregon
    Posts
    20,015

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbys View Post
    .

    No lib here will admit to being woke..

    Every one here is a centrist..

    Never mind blowing up the constitution, throwing supremes out , kangaroo trials, etc.
    there you go georgedot.

    your intellectual bedfellow.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Farmington, Oregon
    Posts
    20,015

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    I am annoyed at the ceaseless sniping at JK Rowling. Her children’s books have a multi/ethnic bunch of children and a gay head teacher but she suggested that women’s toilets should be for women and now she is demonised.
    i am sympathetic.

    and this is a problematic situation. how does feminism, after a century of struggle against patriarchal oppression, come to terms with males claiming womanhood. taking top billing, even.

    dave chapelle voices a similar quandry. how does a black man respond to being told that his racial struggle is equivalent to people requiring specific pronouns.

    it needs working out, and there will be casualties.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    58,092

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    And here, ladies and gentlemen, we have a perfect example. Tom and Mr. Baxter and George. and Peerie Maa and I agree about 95%, and probably 99% on all the really important things, yet posting an article about how the left is overly reactive to minor differences produces a nasty heated reaction about minor differences.
    You apparently do not know me that well.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    58,092

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    The left has a problem in that it is too inclusive. That leads to a wide range of opinions. That leads to discord.
    You should run that past your self, and think about what you wrote.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Wrocław, Poland
    Posts
    12,800

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Tom and Mr. Baxter and George. and Peerie Maa and I agree about 95%, and probably 99% on all the really important things...
    I disagree.

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,455

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    The left has a problem in that it is too inclusive. That leads to a wide range of opinions. That leads to discord.
    Funny, and my belief is that the left is neither as inclusive or as tolerant as they believe they are.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,121

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    anybody who uses the term "woke" to describe the moral position of the left is simply clinging to old forms of moralizing.
    The moral position of the woke part of the left -- both the part identifying itself as such, and its influence -- which is in conflict with the rest, which is what this is all about.[/QUOTE]
    I'm not leaving.

    -- Mike Pence

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    58,092

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    The moral position of the woke part of the left -- both the part identifying itself as such, and its influence -- which is in conflict with the rest, which is what this is all about.
    This post is why I have an issue with the way the word is now used.
    Woke (/ˈwoʊk/ WOHK) is an English adjective meaning "alert to racial prejudice and discrimination" that originated in African-American Vernacular English (AAVE).

    https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Woke
    How can that be used as a pejorative? Is being aware of prejudice a bad thing?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cantão - Brazil
    Posts
    16,652

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    anybody who uses the term "woke" to describe the moral position of the left is simply clinging to old forms of moralizing.
    Obsessed with disputes over language. QED for the article.

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Saint Helena Island, SC
    Posts
    12,459

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Save the bullets, they are dead anyway.

    https://apnews.com/article/b6d1751b2554555f7246f9e914b87c59
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Sep 1999
    Location
    Norwalk, Ohio
    Posts
    34,262

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa
    You should run that past your self, and think about what you wrote.
    The right loves having everyone in lockstep. They believe in purges to maintain their ideological solidarity.
    "I'll tell you why [religion's] not a scam. In my opinion, all right? Tide goes in, tide goes out. Never a miscommunication. You can't explain that."Bill O'Reilly

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    61,543

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    You apparently do not know me that well.
    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    I disagree.
    OK let's say 90% +/- 10%. We tend to focus more on the disagreements, obviously; a chorus of 'yep, yep, yep . . ' is pretty boring.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Wrocław, Poland
    Posts
    12,800

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Obsessed with disputes over language. QED for the article.
    I don't think "obsessed" is a fair characterization, George.

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,121

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    "wokeness" has nothing to do with the political divisions on the left.
    It's only one of the divisions, but it's definitely there.

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    our own osborne russel does a more honest job of describing the perils of "wokeness", focusing on the extreme academic positions and a fear of them somehow becoming political reality. i don't get too concerned about that myself. these extreme positions are nowhere near the political debate.
    If I criticize it without citing "authorities" I am accused of not citing the authorities, (which of course presumes that there are such). If I cite the authorities, I'm told the authorities aren't the authorities, though no others are cited in response; and soon we arrive at the good old "Hey, man, there are no, like, authorities." In any case the criticism goes unanswered.

    Is wokeness some kind of spontaneous generation? No. There have been seminal influences.
    I'm not leaving.

    -- Mike Pence

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,121

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Can one be woke and categorically oppose CRT?
    I'm not leaving.

    -- Mike Pence

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    58,092

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    OK let's say 90% +/- 10%. We tend to focus more on the disagreements, obviously; a chorus of 'yep, yep, yep . . ' is pretty boring.
    Well, when we are discussing science, something that in itself is important as a topic, a failure to understand, or even listen to scientific arguments is a bit fundamental.
    Refusing to accept that it is not genetic, but a meme is more than a 10% disagreement.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Farmington, Oregon
    Posts
    20,015

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    It's only one of the divisions, but it's definitely there.



    If I criticize it without citing "authorities" I am accused of not citing the authorities, (which of course presumes that there are such). If I cite the authorities, I'm told the authorities aren't the authorities, though no others are cited in response; and soon we arrive at the good old "Hey, man, there are no, like, authorities." In any case the criticism goes unanswered.

    Is wokeness some kind of spontaneous generation? No. There have been seminal influences.
    "woke" means whatever it means, in usage.

    my understanding is that the term did generate rather spontaneously, where so much of modern english invention occurs, as african american street slang. signifying someone who demonstrates awareness, and speaks the language of, social justice issues.

    applying "wokeness" specifically to the extremes of social justice scholarship and philosophy does not even begin to cover the popular range of the term.

    as for what came first--or who influenced who--the "woke" of a social-justice culture carrying forward the inheritance of the civil rights movement, or the "woke" of extreme academics and activists, well....was rosa parks a student of malcolm x?

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    38,897

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    The right loves having everyone in lockstep.
    They are amazing how locked they really are. As soon as an idea gets introduced, they are all talking the same points. Is it discipline, or the desire for approval? Either way, it is clear that independent thinking was tossed out a long time ago.

    Sadly, the left is far worse than disorganized and they really do turn on their own rather than build alliances with people who are just a half step away from them.

    The right show no restraint when dealing with the opposition, but the left is unrestrained when dealing with minor disagreements within their own ranks.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

    "Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." - Will Rogers

    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - Groucho Marx

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    58,092

    Default Re: The left's circular firing squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    "woke" means whatever it means, in usage.

    my understanding is that the term did generate rather spontaneously, where so much of modern english invention occurs, as african american street slang. signifying someone who demonstrates awareness, and speaks the language of, social justice issues.

    applying "wokeness" specifically to the extremes of social justice scholarship and philosophy does not even begin to cover the popular range of the term.

    as for what came first--or who influenced who--the "woke" of a social-justice culture carrying forward the inheritance of the civil rights movement, or the "woke" of extreme academics and activists, well....was rosa parks a student of malcolm x?
    Just so.
    Which indicates that those who use it as a pejorative term must approve of social injustices and racial/gender prejudices.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •