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Thread: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

  1. #1
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    Default Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

    I'm building a 14' Whitehall designed by Richard Kohlin. As a amateur I have sure made a lot of mistakes. Here is my latest issue. There are 9 planks. All the planks at mold 2 and 6 were to be screwed thru the laps to the molds from the outside.These molds will remain when I turn the boat over, (The boat is built upside down) the screws will be removed later. I am in process of preparing for the frames once I turn the boat over. The screws that go thru the planks to molds 2 and 6 do not look like I set them in a very good line. My problem is going to be when I back the screws out of the molds and the frames take the place of the mold, I will have a hard time having the screws hit the center of the frames.The frames are white oak and will be 3/4 by 5/8. But I can see already the width of the frame will not cover where the screws are because I did not do a good job making my screws go in a nice line. Some of the screws are going to end up to the edge of the frame or actually off from the frame about a quarter.

    What to do,
    I am wondering if I should plan on taking out the screws that will miss the frame and filling them with a piece of wood. Then I would redrill a new hole that will fall more to the center of the frame. Or could I make a wider frame just for those two areas ( mold area 2 and 6 ) that would cover the area needed for the screw to contact the frame. I am guessing the width of those two frames would need to be about 7/8 or 1'' wide to do the trick.I am not sure if that will be a big issue when I go to steam them and put them in. I am not a big chap so adding a little weight to the boat doesn't concern me.

    AS always I appreciate any help. Thank you, Mac

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

    Personally I would fill and move the holes.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

    ^ This, glue in hard wood plugs, then redrill. Try to keep the countersink for the heads centered on the plugs.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

    What Ned and Nick said...

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    Default Re: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

    As Nick said, use plugs and not dowels for the plugging. The grain in a dowel runs the wrong way, and dowels are not made from rot resistant wood.
    If you need plugs smaller than a plug cutter will make you can use the collars off of Fuller countersinking bits. You can make tiny little plugs with these.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Default Re: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

    A new trick!! Thanks Ned!

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    Default Re: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

    Those small frames make me think the screws are rather tiny, maybe #8?
    If the boat is to be painted, I'd be inclined to just fill the hole entirely with epoxy and skip the wood plug altogether.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

    Quote Originally Posted by nedL View Post
    As Nick said, use plugs and not dowels for the plugging. The grain in a dowel runs the wrong way, and dowels are not made from rot resistant wood.
    If you need plugs smaller than a plug cutter will make you can use the collars off of Fuller countersinking bits. You can make tiny little plugs with these.
    Useful to know, but overkill for this application. It is easy-peasy to carve dowels to be epoxied into place out of scraps of hardwood. As the screw shank goes through the plank, not the threads, the grain orientation does not matter.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

    Thanks everyone. I think the option now is to fill the holes and not make larger frames to cover my pathetic job.
    It all really helps.Thx. again Mac

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    Default Re: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

    Another Question.
    Is there any technique or trick to getting screws lined up straight up or down the side of a boat that has curves going in multiple directions ?
    And yes I am using #8x1/4" screws
    Thx. Mac

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

    Use a piece of broken tape measure blade as a flexible straight edge. Or a long wood batten, or a window blind blade, or a long piece of plastic trim, or...

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    Default Re: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

    Ok. That is what I have done now. I used a batten and stood back far enough to see if I could eye it good enough to make a line plumb on the side of the boat. I also thought if I could find some way to measure off of a wall or my garage door that might work. If I could find something that I could make plumb and then find a way to transpose that plumb onto the side of the boat by measuring from the wall to the top and bottom of the boat, and then draw my line. My hope was if I measure from plumb I could get a line plumb on the boat. So far it hasn't worked out well. It seems I just need to use a batten or what has been suggested and get as close as I can to what looks straight by my eye.
    Thx. again, Mac
    Thx. Mac

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    Default Re: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey View Post
    Ok. That is what I have done now. I used a batten and stood back far enough to see if I could eye it good enough to make a line plumb on the side of the boat. I also thought if I could find some way to measure off of a wall or my garage door that might work. If I could find something that I could make plumb and then find a way to transpose that plumb onto the side of the boat by measuring from the wall to the top and bottom of the boat, and then draw my line. My hope was if I measure from plumb I could get a line plumb on the boat. So far it hasn't worked out well. It seems I just need to use a batten or what has been suggested and get as close as I can to what looks straight by my eye.
    Thx. again, Mac
    Thx. Mac


    Obviously the frames in your case have to be plumb and they all have be parallel?

    There is of course an easier way with a laser.
    Last edited by Chippie; 07-05-2022 at 05:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

    Rea
    Last edited by Chippie; 07-05-2022 at 04:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey View Post
    Another Question.
    Is there any technique or trick to getting screws lined up straight up or down the side of a boat that has curves going in multiple directions ?
    And yes I am using #8x1/4" screws
    Thx. Mac
    Forgive me I am confused what would that be holding?
    Last edited by Chippie; 07-05-2022 at 05:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

    Yes, the screws are holding up the interior frames.

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    Default Re: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

    Through the plank from outside and into the frame @ 1/4" of an inch long is how I interpret that or am I wrong?

    How thick is the planking and how much of the screwi is protruding through and engaging with the Frame.
    Last edited by Chippie; 07-06-2022 at 06:22 AM.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

    Why is there no reply forthcoming??

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

    Hi Chippie, I had sent you a reply. The screw length is 1 1/4 ". It will go through a total of 5/8 " cedar planking. Approximately 5/8" of the screw will be protruding into the interior of the boat and go into the oak frame.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

    I used to use flat washers under the screw-heads if the screws were going to be removed, or - if some "training" of the hood ends was required. A couple/three weeks like that and you could remove the washer and fasten the plank normally and avoid splitting...

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    Default Re: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

    HI, Thank you for the response. I am not familiar with what you mean by ' training. ' Could you please explain a little more to me. I am a amateur builder.
    Thx

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

    A plank can be "trained" to take a bend.
    After a few weeks (or longer) it wants to stay in that shape and may not pull the fasteners through it.
    The hood ends can present a problem, clamps and other clever methods are often used to pull the plank into place. But it will often split at the fastener because it is so close to the end, hence the washers and the waiting. There is always more work to do on the boat and these can wait for quite a while before the final fastening and bungs.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

    Was your reply by Private Message as I am having problems with those?


    So I take it that you intend fitting the frames, and you are asking us how do you plumb them with the surface being a complex shape.


    https://www.instructables.com/Framing-a-Wooden-Boat/
    Last edited by Chippie; 07-09-2022 at 02:29 AM.

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    Default Re: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

    Chippie's response back in post #13 mentioned a laser level. That's probably the easiest solution. They can be had in all sorts of styles nowadays and can be quite inexpensive.
    Just be sure to get the laser co-planar with the mold you are trying to target.

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    Default Re: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition


  26. #26
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    Default Re: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

    Thank you for the video. It was great. Everything that people mention I try to put into the mix in my brain and come out with a solution. I continue to move forward. I do know lazers have come down in price.
    Thx. Mac

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    Default Re: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

    OK, Now I understand what you are saying. Thank you, Mac

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    Default Re: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

    Which brings me to ask why are you screwing into the timbers ?

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

    That is what Rich Kohlin the designer said to do.

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    Default Re: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey View Post
    That is what Rich Kohlin the designer said to do.
    have we got a picture of these inside frames?

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

    Thank you for referring the u tube info for . Mac

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Problen with frames lining up. Built in Whitehall tradition

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey View Post
    Ok. That is what I have done now. I used a batten and stood back far enough to see if I could eye it good enough to make a line plumb on the side of the boat. I also thought if I could find some way to measure off of a wall or my garage door that might work. If I could find something that I could make plumb and then find a way to transpose that plumb onto the side of the boat by measuring from the wall to the top and bottom of the boat, and then draw my line. My hope was if I measure from plumb I could get a line plumb on the boat. So far it hasn't worked out well. It seems I just need to use a batten or what has been suggested and get as close as I can to what looks straight by my eye.
    Thx. again, Mac
    Thx. Mac
    Try a laser level. Works a trick. You can't one at your local building supply store. Usually under $100. Useful for other tasks as well.
    Now is a good time!


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