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Thread: More Pushback

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    Default More Pushback


    Pelosi says Democrats are seeking abortion rights law, calls for end of filibuster

    WASHINGTON — House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said on Monday that Democrats want to pass legislation that would guarantee access to abortions, protect women’s health care data and enshrine other federal protections, after the Supreme Court struck down federal abortion rights in its ruling last week.'

    House Democrats are exploring pushing measures that would protect women’s health data collected in period tracker apps and ensure that women can travel for abortions to states where the procedure remains legal, Pelosi wrote in a letter to other House members Monday.

    She also urged Senate Democrats to strike down the filibuster to get the measures passed.

    “While this extremist Supreme Court works to punish and control the American people, Democrats must continue our fight to expand freedom in America,” Pelosi wrote. “Doing so is foundational to our oath of office and our fidelity to the Constitution.”

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/pelosi-sa...212902804.html
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    Default Re: More Pushback

    David G
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    Default Re: More Pushback

    David G
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    Default Re: More Pushback

    You really need to think long and hard about changing the rules. Whatever is expedient for you today will work against you tomorrow.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

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    Default Re: More Pushback

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    You really need to think long and hard about changing the rules. Whatever is expedient for you today will work against you tomorrow.
    Is true.

    But the point of the thread isn't the efficacy/advisability of any given bit of pushback, it's the fact that the resistance has been stirred up.
    David G
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    Pelosi doens't have a chance. She can't move Manchin and until someone can, it's just noise signifying nothing.
    A society predicated on the assumption that everyone in it should want to get rich is not well situated to become either ethical or imaginative.

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    Default Re: More Pushback

    David G
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    Default Re: More Pushback

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    You really need to think long and hard about changing the rules. Whatever is expedient for you today will work against you tomorrow.
    Very true.

    But then, Republicans have already demonstrated repeatedly that they'll change the rules to use them against their opponents, absent any excuse whatsoever. How do you think the Senate can approve Supreme Court justices with a simple majority now?

    So, yes, Republicans will use rule changes against the Democrats. But that is a fact irrespective of anything the Democrats do.

    If they refrain from using similar tactics, what does it gain them?

    The moral/ethical high ground, maybe. But packing the court and ending the filibuster are perfectly valid, legal options--not unethical at all. And I haven't seen much evidence that the moral/ethical high ground has done them much good on its own.

    Seems like the choice is between (possibly temporary) victories based on changed rules that will certainly be used against them later, and no victories at all, with the certainty that changed rules will be used against them later.

    Which choice will inspire more voters? And who will those voters be voting for? Maybe that's the only real question at this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Very true.

    How do you think the Senate can approve Supreme Court justices with a simple majority now?
    Am I mistaken, or wasn't it Harry Reid who opened that floodgate? He changed the filibuster rule for lesser nominees and then when the GOP got in power they repaid the favor by expanding it to the Supreme Court as well. Both parties can be pretty vindictive. Whatever the Democrats do, you can rest assured that the GOP will pay it forward if they get in power after the mid-terms. It is the political version of mutually assured destruction. And a terrible way to run a country

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Am I mistaken, or wasn't it Harry Reid who opened that floodgate? He changed the filibuster rule for lesser nominees and then when the GOP got in power they repaid the favor by expanding it to the Supreme Court as well. Both parties can be pretty vindictive. Whatever the Democrats do, you can rest assured that the GOP will pay it forward if they get in power after the mid-terms. It is the political version of mutually assured destruction. And a terrible way to run a country
    Ah, thanks! I didn't know that. You're right.

    As for me, I think the filibuster/cloture vote rule is stupid and anti-democratic, and shouldn't exist. As long as the rules are the same for both parties, that would be fine. The problem is, I don't think you're even remotely right that "both parties can be pretty vindictive." Republicans stole a Supreme Court seat by applying different rules for Democrats than they did for themselves. Democrats have done nothing as egregiously unfair as that. I doubt I'll ever forget or forgive that move.

    The idea of a filibuster rule is not to give the minority party a veto power, but rather to ensure that the majority party doesn't rush things through without the minority party having the opportunity to present its arguments in opposition.

    The talking filibuster did that. The majority can't close debate while the opposition is still able to provide relevant debate (I don't mean silly things like reading from books and just talking about irrelevant things to take up time).

    Today's version of the filibuster is tyranny of the minority, and lends itself to pure obstructionism, which is basically all we've seen from Republicans during Democratic presidencies since Obama was elected. They've been quite open--blatantly so--about their intentions that way.

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    Default Re: More Pushback

    Instead of changing the rules, use their rules against them. In spite of abortion being outlawed, you know there will be Congressmen who have the money and power to get an abortion for their mistress and can buy silence. Find them, root them out of their pigsty very publicly and send them to jail.

    And in spite of their movements against gays, you know some of the most vocal are keeping a secret. Find them, root them out of their pigsty very publicly and send them to jail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ron ll View Post
    Instead of changing the rules, use their rules against them. In spite of abortion being outlawed, you know there will be Congressmen who have the money and power to get an abortion for their mistress and can buy silence. Find them, root them out of their pigsty very publicly and send them to jail.

    And in spite of their movements against gays, you know some of the most vocal are keeping a secret. Find them, root them out of their pigsty very publicly and send them to jail.
    Yes please.
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    Default Re: More Pushback

    Quote Originally Posted by ron ll View Post
    Instead of changing the rules, use their rules against them. In spite of abortion being outlawed, you know there will be Congressmen who have the money and power to get an abortion for their mistress and can buy silence. Find them, root them out of their pigsty very publicly and send them to jail.

    And in spite of their movements against gays, you know some of the most vocal are keeping a secret. Find them, root them out of their pigsty very publicly and send them to jail.
    Eh. The filibuster has to go--reverting back to an honest talking filibuster. As it is now, it's set up to create an obstructionist government where the minority party has veto power. That's not good if functional government is the goal, no matter what party you belong to.

    Going after individuals to punish them by their own rules smacks of politically motivated revenge, and will escalate things even further.

    A more promising, less vindictive approach is the religious freedom challenge to the Florida anti-abortion law--in Jewish law, life specifically begins at birth, and women are required to get abortions in certain circumstances.

    Religious freedom, baby!

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    A more promising, less vindictive approach is the religious freedom challenge to the Florida anti-abortion law--in Jewish law, life specifically begins at birth, and women are required to get abortions in certain circumstances.

    Religious freedom, baby!
    I like that too. Back in the ‘60s Washington State had a bunch of outdated laws that most ignored, labeled Blue Laws. Stores couldn’t open on Sundays, no alcohol good be sold or consumed within a large radius of a church, things like that. My hometown had an activist character lawyer who decided to go after these laws (Alva Long in case any locals remember). He started filing suits to close stores on Sundays among other things until the State finally cried uncle and removed the Blue Laws.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ron ll View Post
    Instead of changing the rules, use their rules against them. In spite of abortion being outlawed, you know there will be Congressmen who have the money and power to get an abortion for their mistress and can buy silence. Find them, root them out of their pigsty very publicly and send them to jail.

    And in spite of their movements against gays, you know some of the most vocal are keeping a secret. Find them, root them out of their pigsty very publicly and send them to jail.

    So you don't think that a congressman would think to drive/fly to a neighboring state where abortion is legal? Certainly California and all of New England have quite liberal abortion laws. What laws would they have broken?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    So you don't think that a congressman would think to drive/fly to a neighboring state where abortion is legal? Certainly California and all of New England have quite liberal abortion laws. What laws would they have broken?
    Transporting a minor across state lines?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ron ll View Post
    I like that too. Back in the ‘60s Washington State had a bunch of outdated laws that most ignored, labeled Blue Laws. Stores couldn’t open on Sundays, no alcohol good be sold or consumed within a large radius of a church, things like that. My hometown had an activist character lawyer who decided to go after these laws (Alva Long in case any locals remember). He started filing suits to close stores on Sundays among other things until the State finally cried uncle and removed the Blue Laws.
    I really appreciate this sort of 'guerilla activism'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    So, yes, Republicans will use rule changes against the Democrats. But that is a fact irrespective of anything the Democrats do.
    There is a difficult question lurking below the surface here. It is, "To what extent do we take the high road, and at what point are we being suckers?"

    I honestly don't know the answer. Obama was very good at taking the high road, but look how it limited his success!
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    There is a difficult question lurking below the surface here. It is, "To what extent do we take the high road, and at what point are we being suckers?"

    I honestly don't know the answer. Obama was very good at taking the high road, but look how it limited his success!
    Yes, that is indeed the dilemma. Exacerbated by the fact that those we need to persuade have shown absolutely no tendency to be persuaded by the moral or ethical authority inherent from taking the high road.

    Good luck to us all. We're going to need it.

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    Why would anyone think the filibuster is sacrosanct, or even a good idea? It was never intended to exist, and the rule that made it possible was written by Aaron Burr shortly after he murdered Hamilton. It was never much used until Dixiecrats discovered they could block civil rights laws with it.

    Does no one study history?

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Why would anyone think the filibuster is sacrosanct, or even a good idea? It was never intended to exist, and the rule that made it possible was written by Aaron Burr shortly after he murdered Hamilton. It was never much used until Dixiecrats discovered they could block civil rights laws with it.

    Does no one study history?

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    Default Re: More Pushback

    David G
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    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Ah, thanks! I didn't know that. You're right.

    As for me, I think the filibuster/cloture vote rule is stupid and anti-democratic, and shouldn't exist. As long as the rules are the same for both parties, that would be fine. The problem is, I don't think you're even remotely right that "both parties can be pretty vindictive." Republicans stole a Supreme Court seat by applying different rules for Democrats than they did for themselves. Democrats have done nothing as egregiously unfair as that. I doubt I'll ever forget or forgive that move.

    The idea of a filibuster rule is not to give the minority party a veto power, but rather to ensure that the majority party doesn't rush things through without the minority party having the opportunity to present its arguments in opposition.

    The talking filibuster did that. The majority can't close debate while the opposition is still able to provide relevant debate (I don't mean silly things like reading from books and just talking about irrelevant things to take up time).

    Today's version of the filibuster is tyranny of the minority, and lends itself to pure obstructionism, which is basically all we've seen from Republicans during Democratic presidencies since Obama was elected. They've been quite open--blatantly so--about their intentions that way.

    Tom
    Though not a fan of Garland, I do think it was sleazy to withhold and up/down vote - he would probably been confirmed pretty easily. And I completely agree that the filibuster should revert back to a talking filibuster. They are so lazy now that all they have to do is say they are going to filibuster - what a lame concept.

    As for Democrats not doing anything egregious, I think using cloture to revamp our healthcare system with the ACA was pretty nasty. They knew they did not have the votes from the conventional method so they slipped it in.

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    Default Re: More Pushback

    Well, dang it. How can you keep up your role as a right-wing villain here if you keep agreeing to reasonable stuff like that?

    Though I'd go farther: the Senate has a duty to provide and consent to presidential nominations. Refusing to fulfill that duty was a violation of the oath of office. In a just world, an objective non-partisan world where the rule of law meant what it is supposed to mean, McConnell would have been impeached and removed from the Senate for that.

    I'd say the same if a Democrat withheld a vote on a nominee.

    Make no mistake, Republicans will never be rid of the baggage of that decision. It painted them all as traitors to their oaths, deniers of the rule of law, and bad faith actors whose only goal is obstructionism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Well, dang it. How can you keep up your role as a right-wing villain here if you keep agreeing to reasonable stuff like that?
    I'm a conservative, but there is some reasoning behind my positions. I don't blindly follow anyone, and I have no problem calling out someone who is "my guy" for being wrong about something. If someone is reasonable with me, then I am happy to be reasonable back at them. You may sit on the other end of the political spectrum, but our discussions have always been pretty reasonable and fact-based vs name calling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    I'm a conservative, but there is some reasoning behind my positions. I don't blindly follow anyone, and I have no problem calling out someone who is "my guy" for being wrong about something. If someone is reasonable with me, then I am happy to be reasonable back at them. You may sit on the other end of the political spectrum, but our discussions have always been pretty reasonable and fact-based vs name calling.
    I agree. My comment about your reasonableness was aimed at other Forumites, not you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    I agree. My comment about your reasonableness was aimed at other Forumites, not you.

    Tom
    You could pay closer attention. He's perfectly capable of being reasonable, as I've said. And it's nice to see that he can.

    Until... you notice an error, and question him about it. Then comes the re-assertion without evidence, logical fallacies, name-calling, sloppy rhetoric, etc. Knowing he can - unlike some B'Rat Boobs - be both informed and logical... just makes it worse when he isn't.
    Last edited by David G; 06-30-2022 at 10:25 PM.
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    More pushback... even from some RWW sources --

    Trump proven unfit for power again

    Former White House aide Cassidy Hutchinson’s Tuesday testimony ought to ring the death knell for former President Donald Trump’s political career. Trump is unfit to be anywhere near power ever again.

    Hutchinson’s resume alone should establish her credibility. The 25-year-old had already worked at the highest levels of conservative Republican politics, including in the offices of Sen. Ted Cruz (TX) and House Minority Whip Steve Scalise (LA), before becoming a top aide for former Trump chief of staff Mark Meadows.

    In short, Hutchinson was a conservative Trumpist true believer and a tremendously credible one at that. She did not overstate things, did not seem to be seeking attention, and was very precise about how and why she knew what she related and about which testimony was firsthand and which was secondhand but able to be corroborated.

    What Hutchinson relayed was disturbing. She gave believable accounts of White House awareness that the planned Jan. 6 rally could turn violent. She repeated testimony that Trump not only knew that then-Vice President Mike Pence’s life had been credibly threatened that day but also that he was somewhere between uncaring and actually approving of Pence’s danger.

    She also told, in detail, that Trump repeatedly insisted that he himself should join his supporters at the Capitol — even after being informed the crowd contained armed elements and that it was breaching the perimeter against an undermanned U.S. Capitol Police force.

    Also distressing to hear were Hutchinson’s accounts of Trump’s repeated fits of rage, including dining table contents overturned and ketchup dishes thrown violently across the room. The worst by far, though, was that people immediately returning from being with Trump in the presidential vehicle told of the president trying to grab the wheel of the car to force it to be driven to the Capitol and then violently reaching for the neck of Secret Service agent Bobby Engel, who headed the president’s protective detail.

    Hutchinson’s testimony confirmed a damning portrayal of Trump as unstable, unmoored, and absolutely heedless of his sworn duty to effectuate a peaceful transition of presidential power. Considering the entirety of her testimony, it is unsurprising that Hutchinson said she heard serious discussions of Cabinet members invoking the 25th Amendment that would have at least temporarily evicted Trump from office.

    Trump is a disgrace. Republicans have far better options to lead the party in 2024. No one should think otherwise, much less support him, ever again.

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/o...or-power-again
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    Default Re: More Pushback

    Trump is a disgrace.

    I mean, "ketchup dishes"?

    He's too good for a plain old plastic squeeze bottle?

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    Default Re: More Pushback

    Yes, there's more support than ever now for abortion availability and women's rights in general. More pushback against the egregious SCOTUS malfeasance.

    Yes, there's the danger that those whose votes can make it happen will be too discouraged by recent trends & events to vote.

    SOOOOOOO.... Bilge Rats.... I once again urge you to get off your asses and DO something. Get involved with any organization that is working on voter registration and voter turnout efforts. Doesn't matter which one you pick as much as you getting involved --


    Abortion, women's rights grow as priorities: AP-NORC poll


    https://apnews.com/article/abortion-...e779b2fb226de5



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    Quote Originally Posted by elf View Post
    Pelosi doens't have a chance. She can't move Manchin and until someone can, it's just noise signifying nothing.
    Isn't Manchin a Senator and Ms Pelosi Speaker of the House?

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    Default Re: More Pushback

    Interesting approach --

    AZCentral | The Arizona Republic
    Democratic governor candidate Marco López’s brilliant 'pardons for abortions' idea

    https://www.azcentral.com/story/opin...ea/7787770001/
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    You really need to think long and hard about changing the rules. Whatever is expedient for you today will work against you tomorrow.
    It's long been my opinion that legislation should require a simple majority, but something more should be needed to put a judge on a bench.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Very true.

    But then, Republicans have already demonstrated repeatedly that they'll change the rules to use them against their opponents, absent any excuse whatsoever. How do you think the Senate can approve Supreme Court justices with a simple majority now?

    So, yes, Republicans will use rule changes against the Democrats. But that is a fact irrespective of anything the Democrats do.

    If they refrain from using similar tactics, what does it gain them?

    The moral/ethical high ground, maybe. But packing the court and ending the filibuster are perfectly valid, legal options--not unethical at all. And I haven't seen much evidence that the moral/ethical high ground has done them much good on its own.

    Seems like the choice is between (possibly temporary) victories based on changed rules that will certainly be used against them later, and no victories at all, with the certainty that changed rules will be used against them later.

    Which choice will inspire more voters? And who will those voters be voting for? Maybe that's the only real question at this point.

    Tom
    The democrats only have 48 senators they can count on. IF THE PUBLIC REALIZES THIS, perhaps they'll vote for more democrats.

    November's election actually is the most important of my lifetime. Dems either win enough seats to get things done, or the USA as we've known it is history.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: More Pushback

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    There is a difficult question lurking below the surface here. It is, "To what extent do we take the high road, and at what point are we being suckers?"

    I honestly don't know the answer. Obama was very good at taking the high road, but look how it limited his success!
    Obama was the victim of lies; like him not being born in the USA.

    Republicans in the senate LIED about the ACA, and the dem who followed had to correct the lies of the republican who just spoke: This was typical https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRUL...nnel=GuyGuyguy
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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