View Poll Results: What's the best plan for fixing the deck?

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  • Something else

    0 0%
  • Re deck it

    10 71.43%
  • 'Glass it

    4 28.57%
  • Spot fair it

    1 7.14%
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Thread: Stop me before I do something irreversible

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Stop me before I do something irreversible

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandlapper View Post
    You are wrong about the weave of Xynole and Dynel. Dynel has tighter weave than Xynole. Xynole has a loose very open fuzzy weave and looks nothing like glass cloth. I have published the results of destructive testing and have no desire to get into an argument so you can make your own tests and determination.
    Tom, I went looking for that test data on your Bluejacket site and find that the site isn't working. I got a error page reporting that. Just letting you know.

    Jeff

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Stop me before I do something irreversible

    Quote Originally Posted by jpatrick View Post
    Tom, I went looking for that test data on your Bluejacket site and find that the site isn't working. I got a error page reporting that. Just letting you know.

    Jeff
    Yes, I do know. Got messed up by Spectrum who pretty much ruined all my contact information. Since I've lost the old password list, I'm thinking about retiring from any of them as old age makes keeping up with this stuff too hard. I quit selling plans some months ago. Spectrum even changed my phone line number which they said would not happen and which has been the same for 40 years so I'm a non person. I may not care about any of it.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Stop me before I do something irreversible

    Quote Originally Posted by slacktidemike View Post
    I've used 6oz cloth on DF ply and never had checking. I've heard some say that 4oz cloth will do the trick, but I've always stayed with 6oz. I don't have any experience with Dynel. There is a good build thread - Building the Luzier 16' - and Dynel was put on the deck of a new, DF ply build. You might want to check it out. If the deck is structurally sound, I'd forget about tearing it off and replacing it simply because of some checking. When I first saw the pic of your boat, my first thought was how good it looked for an old ply boat, and, as long as the deck was sound, I'd try to take a low-intensity approach and use a light touch that might not use any cloth at all. But, if you want to nix the checking issue for good, the cloth should do it. I wouldn't try to leave any cloth weave for anti-skid. Rather, I'd fill it with fairing compound and then use a paint scraper to smooth it out.
    Thanks for your comments. Iíve decided not to put a layer of any cloth on it. I may add another coat of epoxy before fairing with epoxy filler. Iím definitely trying to use a light touch. I feel more like custodian than owner. The boat is not historically significant, but it has a lot of history and I have a lot of documentation that was passed to me by the prior owner, now passed, who was the son of the designer, so I know a lot of details. I know the name of the builder who constructed it in a long gone Quonset hut on the shore of ďThe Salt PondĒ in Wakefield, Rhode Island all those years ago.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Stop me before I do something irreversible

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Leaving the dynel cloth weave to mimic canvas is a theatrical thing.
    It sort of looks like canvas for awhile, depending on how rough you are with it, but like canvas, any dings , scratches, hard to remove gunk that gets on it..patching will leave it ...well....patched. The repair will not look like canvas any longer and will be either slippery or need non skid.
    Plus, leaving the weave showing is asking for leaks.The weave is NOT SUPPOSED to show.It is an idea whose time never really came.
    You GOTTA put some kind of cloth on that fir ply.
    Thanks for the advice. Iím going to take an incremental approach, even if I means more work later. If the penetrating epoxy doesnít work on its own, Iíll scrape the paint off, glass and repaint at a later date. Itís a wooden boat so I expect to be scraping and painting it forever, anyway. This, by the way was an argument i heard from someone who painted his lapstrake rowboat with $10 a gallon latex house paint. I still wouldnít do it, but he made his point and his boat looked nice if not very glossy.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Stop me before I do something irreversible

    Your boat with its provenance sound great. If it's not already historically significant, it's getting closer to the designation with each passing year. Sounds like your going the Ian McColgin route without the glass. If you're thinking about putting on a coat of straight epoxy, I'd pay attention to what Todd Bradshaw says above. Also, give some thought to how straight epoxy doesn't flow out like paint (in my experience) and it can be a little lumpy. Sanding, or otherwise getting it flat, can be very hard and no fun. I've always tried to get a good chemical bond for epoxy vs. mechanical, if possible. I'd follow the manufacturer's instructions to the letter. Perhaps your thinking multiple coats of epoxy primer and then a two-part polyurethane topcoat.
    Last edited by slacktidemike; 07-05-2022 at 04:10 PM.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Stop me before I do something irreversible

    Quote Originally Posted by slacktidemike View Post
    Your boat with its provenance sound great. If it's not already historically significant, it's getting closer to the designation with each passing year. Sounds like your going the Ian McColgin route without the glass. If you're thinking about putting on a coat of straight epoxy, I'd pay attention to what Todd Bradshaw says above. Also, give some thought to how straight epoxy doesn't flow out like paint (in my experience) and it can be a little lumpy. Sanding, or otherwise getting it flat, can be very hard and no fun. I've always tried to get a good chemical bond for epoxy vs. mechanical, if possible. I'd follow the manufacturer's instructions to the letter. Perhaps your thinking multiple coats of epoxy primer and then a two-part polyurethane topcoat.
    Iím actually planning to use a couple of coats of one part primer to tie the epoxy to a two or three coat topcoat of traditional one part yacht paint. Should I be considering two part paints? Again, I expect to be painting her more or less forever.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Stop me before I do something irreversible

    if you do not sheath that fir ply, you WILL be scraping,sanding and painting forever.
    If you sheath the fir ply and use epoxy barrier coat and an LP top coat, you can fugetabboutit for 15 to 30 years.
    using epoxy resin or a two part coating without sheathing is a fools errand
    if the deck were a different flavor of ply...not rotary sawn fir...sure it would be fine without sheathing.
    but it ain't

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Stop me before I do something irreversible

    My experience backs what Wizbang has been trying to get across. That fir ply has a mind if its own and a thin layer if goop won't tame it.
    -Dave

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Stop me before I do something irreversible

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ15Num1 View Post
    Iím actually planning to use a couple of coats of one part primer to tie the epoxy to a two or three coat topcoat of traditional one part yacht paint. Should I be considering two part paints? Again, I expect to be painting her more or less forever.
    I've used Interlux products and if you go to their website, you can read about the two types of products, one coat vs. two coat. Choose the type you like best. Two coat products cost more. One thing to remember about these products, at least with Interlux, is that you can put a one-part coating over a two-part coating, but you can't (or shouldn't) put a two-part over a one-coat. If you do, the one-part coating may dissolve due to the chemicals in the two-part. If you use a one-part topcoat, for Interlux I've used Brightside and have been happy with it. I'm sure the other major manufacturers make equally good topcoats.

    About the fiberglass debate. It is true that if you really want to put the brakes on future checking, you'll need to glass the ply. If you go the no-glass route, the checks will most likely reappear eventually. When? I don't know. It will depend on a lot of factors like how well you stabilized the DF with the CPES and possibly straight epoxy, how and where you store the boat, the quality of the primer and topcoat you apply. If you change your mind and decide to glass the deck, to do a proper job, you'll need to remove all of the coaming, and also the rub rails, and any hardware mounted to the deck. I believe you said you're hesitant to do these things. I would be, too. Not because it would be so hard to do, but because I'd want to keep the boat in its original condition as much as possible. It's been like it is for 76 years, and I'd want to give a try at keeping it that way. The title of your post shows that you worry about doing something irreversible. Putting epoxy glass on your boat is not irreversible, but removing it, should you want to for some reason, is not something I'd want to do. Think 60 grit grinders or heat guns and toxic fumes. Not much fun in my opinion. If you go the no glass route, you can always strip the paint and primer and glass the deck in the future if you determine it best. I wouldn't mind maintaining the deck on your boat, because I would like the boat's originality being maintained, and would enjoy working on the boat -- especially a boat like yours with a small deck area. We're all different. It's your choice. A caveat though... All of this work assumes the deck is sound and doesn't have any trouble with rot. I'd check every inch on the topside and underside. If the deck has trouble, it will have to be repaired and could easily need replacement.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Stop me before I do something irreversible

    IMHO you are way over-thinking this.

    Is the boat more valuable as original? if so then refinish the original decks. You say they are structurally sound. If they will be painted, just fill the checks, sand, and paint with enough coats to get a smooth clean finish (i.e not "patchy").

    If the answer to the above question is no, and you want a good long term fix, then replace the decks. Remember, this is a BIG job, and you may introduce other problems. In the end you will need to glass the new deck, is this hardly seems like an efficient solution if the existing decks are strong.

    If you want a long lasting hybrid, then sand the existing decks, fill and fair them (I'd disregard the post that said to do it afterwards), glass them and then smooth the glass with a hard filer. That deck hardly seems large enough to be walking or standing on, and anti skid will just be a dirt collector.
    Now is a good time!


    Steward of MAKOTO [WB Magazine #232], and Honored Member of the LPBC

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Stop me before I do something irreversible

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    if you do not sheath that fir ply, you WILL be scraping,sanding and painting forever.
    If you sheath the fir ply and use epoxy barrier coat and an LP top coat, you can fugetabboutit for 15 to 30 years.
    using epoxy resin or a two part coating without sheathing is a fools errand
    if the deck were a different flavor of ply...not rotary sawn fir...sure it would be fine without sheathing.
    but it ain't
    Thank you for your advice. Makes sense. Sheathing or re decking will be a future project. I just want to be careful to do nothing that will preclude future projects. Since I don't know what I'm doing, I want to be sure that everything I do gives me flexibility to do something else in the future.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Stop me before I do something irreversible

    Quote Originally Posted by slacktidemike View Post
    I've used Interlux products and if you go to their website, you can read about the two types of products, one coat vs. two coat. Choose the type you like best. Two coat products cost more. One thing to remember about these products, at least with Interlux, is that you can put a one-part coating over a two-part coating, but you can't (or shouldn't) put a two-part over a one-coat. If you do, the one-part coating may dissolve due to the chemicals in the two-part. If you use a one-part topcoat, for Interlux I've used Brightside and have been happy with it. I'm sure the other major manufacturers make equally good topcoats.

    About the fiberglass debate. It is true that if you really want to put the brakes on future checking, you'll need to glass the ply. If you go the no-glass route, the checks will most likely reappear eventually. When? I don't know. It will depend on a lot of factors like how well you stabilized the DF with the CPES and possibly straight epoxy, how and where you store the boat, the quality of the primer and topcoat you apply. If you change your mind and decide to glass the deck, to do a proper job, you'll need to remove all of the coaming, and also the rub rails, and any hardware mounted to the deck. I believe you said you're hesitant to do these things. I would be, too. Not because it would be so hard to do, but because I'd want to keep the boat in its original condition as much as possible. It's been like it is for 76 years, and I'd want to give a try at keeping it that way. The title of your post shows that you worry about doing something irreversible. Putting epoxy glass on your boat is not irreversible, but removing it, should you want to for some reason, is not something I'd want to do. Think 60 grit grinders or heat guns and toxic fumes. Not much fun in my opinion. If you go the no glass route, you can always strip the paint and primer and glass the deck in the future if you determine it best. I wouldn't mind maintaining the deck on your boat, because I would like the boat's originality being maintained, and would enjoy working on the boat -- especially a boat like yours with a small deck area. We're all different. It's your choice. A caveat though... All of this work assumes the deck is sound and doesn't have any trouble with rot. I'd check every inch on the topside and underside. If the deck has trouble, it will have to be repaired and could easily need replacement.
    Thanks, Slaktidemike. You expressed better than I could EXACTLY my thinking. The deck has absolutely ZERO rot. Very hard. Checking is the only issue. I'll actually ENJOY maintaining the deck. As you note, it's small and a scrape, light sand and paint coat is an afternoon job. I have not found the coverage of Interlux yacht paint to be very good. About 5 coats on bare wood is necessary to hide, in my experience. I ordered up some Epifanes and will let you know...

    I really don't want to take it apart too much. It's an old boat and it is what it is. The poll results heavily lean towards deck replacement. I find in these situations, be it "repairing" a boat or a house, there's a large contingent in favor of full demolition and rebuild. In the end, you have a new whatever it is and you haven't repaired anything. Nothing is permanent. Stephen King's Langoliers are at work 24/7, so if you can shore things up for a while, you delay the inevitable day the boat goes off to the dump after 10 years slowly rotting uncovered on a rusting trailer in the back yard, which WILL be the ultimate end for this boat - I hope not until another 76 years have passed.
    Last edited by PJ15Num1; 07-10-2022 at 09:22 AM.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Stop me before I do something irreversible

    Quote Originally Posted by Cogeniac View Post
    IMHO you are way over-thinking this.

    Is the boat more valuable as original? if so then refinish the original decks. You say they are structurally sound. If they will be painted, just fill the checks, sand, and paint with enough coats to get a smooth clean finish (i.e not "patchy").

    If the answer to the above question is no, and you want a good long term fix, then replace the decks. Remember, this is a BIG job, and you may introduce other problems. In the end you will need to glass the new deck, is this hardly seems like an efficient solution if the existing decks are strong.

    If you want a long lasting hybrid, then sand the existing decks, fill and fair them (I'd disregard the post that said to do it afterwards), glass them and then smooth the glass with a hard filer. That deck hardly seems large enough to be walking or standing on, and anti skid will just be a dirt collector.
    I agree and appreciate your comments. I've taken the deck fittings off, mainly to make sanding easier and to polish them up a bit, but I'm leaving the coamings on. Taking them off would involve cracking off some nice mahogany bungs and their attachment up by the centerboard trunk would be complex to take apart without risk of splitting them leading to replacement, etc., etc. I'm a fan of not breaking something in the process of fixing something else.

    As to overthinking this, isn't that what this forum is for?

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Stop me before I do something irreversible

    Is it really 76 year old plywood? Not doubting, just curious.

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Stop me before I do something irreversible

    Same thread, different topic. I had a boat turning party on Friday because I'd noticed some of the interior painting I'd done showed up on the bottom. Further inspection lead me to several discrepancies that I want to address.

    The bottom panels were replaced in 1998 according to the previous owner. The yard that did the work appears to have re cut the keel rabbit since some the centerboard trunk carriage bolt countersinks have no edge margin remaining. The replacement panels apparently were cut to the original pattern and this leaves a rather large gap (~ 1/8-inch) that was filled with what appears to be BoatLife or some kind of polysulfide sealant I've been digging it out and it's coming out relatively easily. The ply edge shows no rot or delamination. Although badly checked, the oak keel is hard as a rock.

    My plan to address this is to dig out the chines as well, since they appear to be a similar story, clean the caulking lines thoroughly with acetone using stiff brushes and rags, apply penetrating epoxy to the caulking lines, keel and chines and re caulk with Sikaflex 291. Should I use a pliable sealant if I plan to overcoat with some fiberglass tape? If not, how should I fill the caulk lines?

    I noted that the original centerboard slot in the keel is of variable width, although the box above it does not appear to be. In other words the keel overhangs (underhangs?) the box above it. I recall some discussion with the previous owner of the centerboard being finicky to avoid jamming in the slot and I suspect this is the reason. He also noted it leaked in the area of the centerboard trunk but had not been able to find the leak. The lower portion of the box was smeared with what looked to be roofing cement, which I've peeled off. My plan to address all this is to make a router guide, temporarily screw it - lightly - to the keel (yikes!) and run a 2-1/2 long straight cutting bit along the sides of the box to skim-cut the surface and true-up the keel and the box. I will stop short of the headledges and hand sand them only. This will prepare the surface for some 6 oz. glass and epoxy which will cover, seal and reinforce the keel-to-trunk joint which was the possible source of the leak. I actually think the bottom panel to keel joint was the problem since I witnessed paint leaking out from the inside, but the centerboard box's inside joint is a high-probability leaker as well.

    I want to run some 8 oz. glass tape that I have over the chines and keel-to-bottom panel joints. Further, I want to overcoat the keel and keel-to-bottom panel joints with a 12" wide strip of 6 oz. glass to stop the checking and positively seal everything up. This boat will be moored and can't have a nuisance leak. I don't want to fiberglass the entire bottom and sides, just the areas of concern. I did this before on a rowboat and was able to fair it in nicely. The taped joints were perfectly intact when the rowboat was sold 20 years later, so I think this is a reasonable approach.

    Thoughts on all of the above?

    IMG_5610.jpgIMG_5611.jpgIMG_5612.jpgIMG_5613.jpg
    You can see that the centerboard slot necks down in the middle.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Stop me before I do something irreversible

    Quote Originally Posted by ron ll View Post
    Is it really 76 year old plywood? Not doubting, just curious.
    The previous owner said so and it sure looks to be. The only panels he said were replaced were the bottom panels in 1998. The sides and decks are supposedly original to the boat. Based on some marine grade Douglas Fir ply that I just bought, they sure as heck weren't milled recently! The quality of the plywood on the deck is superb. Only a few "boat" patches on the surface ply. Probably cut from an old-growth trunk.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Stop me before I do something irreversible

    I would run a skilsaw/paneling saw ,freehand , set to the depth of the ply or a bit more ,down those funky seams and fill them with 403 thickened WEST . Then faired with 407 thickened WEST.
    Not a router, that will be slow, expensive, messy and un nessesary. The router gonna smoke, jump and gunk up. It is a house carpenters tool.
    No penetrating epoxy, it won't hurt, but it ain't needed.
    No sika goo.No devil sperm .
    No fiberglass tape. Same deal, just not nessessary.
    The kerf need not be pretty, it would be to your benefit if it cut away too much than too little.
    bruce
    Last edited by wizbang 13; 07-10-2022 at 09:28 AM.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Stop me before I do something irreversible

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    I would run a skilsaw/paneling saw ,freehand , set to the depth of the ply or a bit more ,down those funky seams and fill them with 403 thickened WEST . Then faired with 407 thickened WEST.
    Not a router, that will be slow, expensive, messy and un nessesary. The router gonna smoke, jump and gunk up. It is a house carpenters tool.
    No penetrating epoxy, it won't hurt, but it ain't needed.
    No sika goo.No devil sperm .
    No fiberglass tape. Same deal, just not nessessary.
    The kerf need not be pretty, it would be to your benefit if it cut away too much than too little.
    bruce
    Thanks, Bruce. I’m leaning your way. Only question I have is, if I fill the rabbet with West System epoxy and 403, will I (or the next custodian) ever be able to get the bottom panels off should they ever need replacement? The originals only lasted 52 years and these won’t last that long and have been on for 24 years already. I’m 58 so probably gonna die before these need replacement, but the boat may live on.

    I think I wasn’t clear about the router. The router would not be used in the seams. The goo in there has come out quite readily and cleanly, so no need for a pass with a skill saw. The router would be used to dress the inside of the centerboard slot to true-up the slot to the box and eliminate the neck near the middle of the slot as you move fore/aft. It’s obviously always been like that, but it’s probably why the centerboard binds. Also, I’m afraid I’ll HAVE to glass the bottom of the centerboard trunk to seal the joint between the keel and the box.
    Last edited by PJ15Num1; 07-10-2022 at 03:03 PM. Reason: Error

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Stop me before I do something irreversible

    Sure , just run the saw down again in 50 years.
    Also, epoxy breaks down quickly with heat.(heat gun).
    Taking epoxied stuff apart is not as impossible as some think.
    When you say the goo is coming out cleanly, one might think it's clean, but not as clean as a fresh cut into fresh wood. This is what I meant by a bigger gap than original being your friend.

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