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Thread: Religion ins schools; taxpayer money

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Religion ins schools; taxpayer money

    If I've argued anything, it's that NO group of taxpayers should get benefits that are not offered to all
    Well, then we agree!
    Both public school parents and private school parents pay taxes. Benefits that accrue to one group should accrue to both.

    BTW, substituting indoctrination for education is just another bias tell.



    Kevin
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  2. #37
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    Default Re: Religion ins schools; taxpayer money

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    Now who is failing to read the posts? I posted ( or stated, not, "said," by the way; this is not a verbal format, FYI) that taxpayers should have access to equivalent benefit. Please indicate where I posted the statement that taxpayer funds should be used as parents see fit.
    On the first bolded bit: If you're going to quibble, be sure to be right. It does help avoid looking foolish. As in, "verbal" means "having to do with words" (and thus typing words is indeed a verbal format, FYI).

    But quibbles aside, how on earth did you manage to conclude that I am claiming that you "indicated" that "taxpayer funds should be used as parents see fit"?

    What I SAID (since this is a verbal format, I'll stick with "said") was:

    Unless you want to hand out taxpayer money to ALL parents to use as they see fit. Otherwise, only religious parents benefit,
    Meaning, if you give taxpayer funding only for religious indoctrination, that is a benefit that some parents get, and others do not. If, however, you decide to give every parent X amount of taxpayer dollars to use as they see fit, some might use it for religious indoctrination. I might use it to buy a new mainsail. You could argue that such a no-strings financial benefit, offered to all (rather than being offered only to religious parents) would be fair.

    I think it'd be dumb, but it would not be unjust in the way that paying tuition at religious schools is.

    Tom
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  3. #38
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    Default Re: Religion ins schools; taxpayer money

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    Well, then we agree!
    Both public school parents and private school parents pay taxes. Benefits that accrue to one group should accrue to both.
    What benefit is it that you think public school parents are receiving, and private school parents are not? Because, as far as the law is concerned, both groups receive the same benefit:

    Access to a free and appropriate public education. Period.

    This may be the heart of our disagreement. You seem to be seeing some imaginary benefit that is offered to public school parents but not private school parents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    BTW, substituting indoctrination for education is just another bias tell.
    I'd argue not. It's quite an intentional choice on my part. "Indoctrination" specifically refers to information being presented in such a way that does not allow for questioning, and is not open to revision based on evidence.

    I say this with the background of having spent my K-12 education in a fundamentalist Christian school system. Good schools, academically and musically. I got to take 4 years of Latin. My class had multiple National Merit Scholars.

    But it was very weak in the sciences (at least where they contradicted "Scripture"--math was fine), and definitely VERY conservative politically. And the daily religious classes (4 years, every day) were pure indoctrination.

    Tom
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  4. #39
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    Default Re: Religion ins schools; taxpayer money

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    What benefit is it that you think public school parents are receiving, and private school parents are not? Because, as far as the law is concerned, both groups receive the same benefit:

    Access to a free and appropriate public education. Period.
    You keep saying that, but in the court case we are discussing the state was not providing a public school. The choice was a private school or no school. Not the one you offered.


    watch the video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ah1j1L_xUzs
    Maine gives taxpayer money to families who live in areas that don’t have public high schools, but that public money is banned from being used in schools that offer religious instruction

    How can people trust you as a teacher when you cannot understand this simple situation?
    Life is complex.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Religion ins schools; taxpayer money

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    You keep saying that, but in the court case we are discussing the state was not providing a public school. The choice was a private school or no school. Not the one you offered.
    ...
    How can people trust you as a teacher when you cannot understand this simple situation?
    Because it's not the simple situation you seem to think it is. The decision handed down in the Maine case applies far more broadly, and basically overturns provisions in 37 separate state constitutions that ban the use of taxpayer funding for religious schools.

    The decision concludes that any state that offers funding for enrollment in non-religious private schools must also offer funding for enrollment in religious private schools. The fact that no public school was available in this particular Maine case is entirely beside the point, and has nothing to do with the ruling.

    So, I guess you can trust me as a teacher to do more than watch a brief video clip and leap to an incorrect conclusion!

    Tom
    Last edited by WI-Tom; 06-23-2022 at 02:37 PM.
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  6. #41
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    Default Re: Religion ins schools; taxpayer money

    There has been a concerted effort by the religious right to collect public funding for their agenda. I have been watching this effort in Maine for over 20 years now and this comes as no surprise.
    There will be many more shocking revelations from this court before there is any meaningful advance toward equality.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Religion ins schools; taxpayer money

    ^^^Yes. One line of thinking is that this decision may have opened the door to religious schools being permitted to function as charter schools (which are actually public schools). And thus, receive full funding from taxes just as public schools do.

    Tom
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  8. #43
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    Default Re: Religion ins schools; taxpayer money

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    ^^^Yes. One line of thinking is that this decision may have opened the door to religious schools being permitted to function as charter schools (which are actually public schools). And thus, receive full funding from taxes just as public schools do.

    Tom
    Exactly, charter schools have gained a strong foothold in provincial Maine and I assumed this is what the entire concern was really about.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Religion ins schools; taxpayer money

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Because it's not the simple situation you seem to think it is. The decision handed down in the Maine case applies far more broadly, and basically overturns provisions in 37 separate state constitutions that ban the use of taxpayer funding for religious schools.

    The decision concludes that any state that offers funding for enrollment in non-religious private schools must also offer funding for enrollment in religious private schools. The fact that no public school was available in this particular Maine case is entirely beside the point, and has nothing to do with the ruling.

    So, I guess you can trust me as a teacher to do more than watch a brief video clip and leap to an incorrect conclusion!

    Tom
    You offered up the obligation of a public education. There was not one. You made that false claim. And you thought it supported your position. I simply pointed out it was a false claim. What the Supreme Court considered is up to the Supreme Court and the arguments presented to it.

    I posted a link somewhere above - hss.gov..., that accurately reflects the law as it relates to the US Constitution. Your error is in equating funding for religious education with secular education at a school run by a religious institution. That appears to be the problem with 37 separate state constitutions.

    But perhaps you missed the HHS commentary or the Supreme Court decision that led to it.
    Last edited by Too Little Time; 06-23-2022 at 03:11 PM.
    Life is complex.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Religion ins schools; taxpayer money

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    You offered up the obligation of a public education. There was not one.
    Some here may not be surprised to hear that I know a bit about public education law in the U.S. ...

    Where a school cannot offer a "free and appropriate public education" through its own public schools, as seems to be the case in parts of Maine, then it must offer an alternate educational service. Options might include:

    1. Extended busing to a public school outside the immediate area.
    2. Tutoring in home or at another venue in lieu of classes.
    3. Online/remote class options.
    4. Reimbursement for tuition and other expenses for attendance at a private school, if (and only if) one of the other options has not been offered, or has been deemed inadequate by the reviewing officials, or by the courts.

    So, there may have been plenty of other options the parents were offered--the case or news reports I've seen don't give us any detail about whether they were offered something else. But whether they were, or not, nothing in past precedent or established law obligates a public school to pay expenses for attending a private religious school. The legal precedents, in fact, support the conclusion that states have NOT been required to fund religious schools, as Justice Breyer notes in his dissent:

    In the majority’s view, the fact that private individuals, not Maine itself, choose to spend the State’s money on religious education saves Maine’s program from Establishment Clause condemnation. But that fact, as I have said, simply permits Maine to route funds to religious schools. See, e.g., Zelman, 536 U. S., at 652. It does not require Maine to spend its money in that way.
    What the court has done here, as seems to be its recent MO, is to ignore precedent to promote a radical conservative/religious ideology. So much for stare decisis.

    This is a radical change, and a big step toward theocracy.

    Tom
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  11. #46
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    Default Re: Religion ins schools; taxpayer money

    There has been a long on-going campaign by the right wing to reduce funding to public education as a means of encouraging private schooling. The quality of public education is a separate issue and deserves its own thread.

    Having stated that, let me say that I paid to send my son to parochial school, all the way through high school. I considered this to be included in my discretionary spending budget. At no time did I believe that I should be compensated by the state because I chose to NOT avail myself of the quality public schooling which was present in my community. Yes, I pay taxes, and have no complaint that my tax dollars go to support public education.

    I try to live my life by the old Spanish proverb: "Take what you want, and pay for it."
    He was one of the most supremely stupid men I have ever met. He taught me a great deal.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Religion ins schools; taxpayer money

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    Do you have data to support this assertion?

    But that is thread drift.
    The thread is about govt money for private schools. Private school parents pay taxes just like public school parents do and so should be eligible for similar benefits that result from those payments.

    Kevin
    As to people with no kids.

    I'm of the fundamental opinion that giving private schools taxpayer money will simply allow those schools to raise their price.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Religion ins schools; taxpayer money

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Yes, sure do. For one thing, they have a significant effect on election results:



    And what do they do with their power to influence elections?



    Source



    No, the thread is about a recent Supreme Court decision that requires states to provide taxpayer money to religious schools--schools that routinely and intentionally include religious indoctrination as part of the curriculum.

    Parents who choose to send children to religious schools--or any private school, for that matter--generally do so because of their own personal choice. The "similar benefits" you are asking for them to receive? They already have them. All parents are entitled to a free and appropriate public education for their children, in a public school. Just because they are choosing not to use that benefit does not mean that the benefit does not exist.

    This is nothing less than taxpayer-funded religious indoctrination.

    Tom
    Well put.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Religion ins schools; taxpayer money

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    Your premise is that students at certain schools turn out a certain way: you have not shown evidence of that.

    Further, stating that private school students are, "part of the problem" is useless unless we know how they are part of the problem and how students at other schools are not part of the same problem. What is your control group or standard?



    Calling out one type of private school is a big tell. It shows your bias more clearly than any demonstrative statement.




    So, taxpayers who believe as you do should get benefits, but taxpayers with different views should not. Got it.



    Now who is failing to read the posts? I posted ( or stated, not, "said," by the way; this is not a verbal format, FYI) that taxpayers should have access to equivalent benefit. Please indicate where I posted the statement that taxpayer funds should be used as parents see fit.

    Kevin
    Again, the private school my mom taught at set in place a policy that no student gets less than a "C", under any circumstance.

    Ponder that. That private school is a business. It's goal is to make money. Parents are more likely to send their kids to a school that shows them their students do better; higher GPA.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Religion ins schools; taxpayer money

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    Well, then we agree!
    Both public school parents and private school parents pay taxes. Benefits that accrue to one group should accrue to both.

    BTW, substituting indoctrination for education is just another bias tell.



    Kevin
    Schools, I believe, should teach FACTS. They should teach accurate history, even when it's embarrassing.

    I do tend to think schools should be federally funded, so the quality of the education is more equal, and not dependent upon the income level of the community.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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