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Thread: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

  1. #246
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    I read it. Like I said, sociology. Didn't investigate the question we are discussing at all. So...



    It is possible, but you provided no proof, nor any coherent argument for why it would not be innate.
    :Post#230
    Tybur, et al., outlines three domains of disgust: pathogen disgust, which "motivates the avoidance of infectious microorganisms"; sexual disgust, "which motivates the avoidance of [dangerous] sexual partners and behaviors"; and moral disgust, which motivates people to avoid breaking social norms. Disgust may have an important role in certain forms of morality.[14]
    Memetics, not genetics.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  2. #247
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Actually, it does. Sex works because it feels good, and it doesn't take much in the way of physical contact for it to feel good. An aversion to being intimate with the same sex means you are a lot more likely to do it only with the opposite sex - which despite PM not seeing it increases your reproductive fitness.
    How? Where is the evidence.
    I have provided evidence that it does not affect the Selfish Gene's ability to be passed forward, but you cannot or will not see it.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    there are many possible ways in which same-gender attraction and sexual behavior could be adaptive both for individuals and for groups. we see same gender sexual practices performing needed function where opposite gender individuals are unavailable, for instance.

    if "disgust" were all about assuring reproduction, then men would be disgusted by women who are not ovulating. not to mention, disgusted by their own hairy palms.

    your stuff is claptrap, george. your invention. not science.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbys View Post
    I love this thread, liberals trying to out woke each other, if one is not woke enough they are a bigot.

    Just wait until one has a daughter or grand daughter practicing for years in as sport only to lose a scholarship to a dick( no pun ) butkis clone.
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    I'm kind of surprised that bonobos haven't come up yet in this thread. Seems that same-sex behaviors confer significant advantages to female bonobos:

    We found that in competitive situations, females preferred to have sex with other females rather than with males. After sex, females often remained closer to each other than did mixed sex pairs, and females had measurable increases in urinary oxytocin following sex with females, but not following sex with males. Among same-sex and opposite-sex pairs, individuals who had more sex also supported each other more often in conflicts, but the majority of these coalitions were formed among females. "It may be that a greater motivation for cooperation among females, mediated physiologically by oxytocin, is the key to understanding how females attain high dominance ranks in bonobo society," explained co-lead author Martin Surbeck, a researcher at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology and Harvard University.
    Nothing proven, but possibly pointing in an interesting direction:

    "While it is important to not equate human homosexuality with same-sex sexual behavior in animals," cautions co-lead author Liza Moscovice, a researcher at the Leibniz Institute for Farm Animal Biology, "our study suggests that in both humans and a close phylogenetic relative, the evolution of same-sex sexual behavior may have provided new pathways to promote high levels of cooperation."
    Source

    And not just female bonobos:

    All bonobos frequently have homosexual sex—the males being quite fond of hanging upside down, face to face, from a tree and engaging in what the gay community calls frottage (some primatologists call it “penis fencing”; to most teenagers it’s better known as dry humping).
    Source

    Seems like sexual behaviors that promote and enable increased levels of cooperation could plausibly offer significant adaptive advantages, eh?

    Tom
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  6. #251
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    :Post#230
    Tybur, et al., outlines three domains of disgust: pathogen disgust, which "motivates the avoidance of infectious microorganisms"; sexual disgust, "which motivates the avoidance of [dangerous] sexual partners and behaviors"; and moral disgust, which motivates people to avoid breaking social norms. Disgust may have an important role in certain forms of morality.[14]
    I think you misunderstand that quote.

    What the authors are saying is that there are three different kinds of disgust. Sexual disgust is one kind, moral disgust is a different kind.

    In other words, sexual disgust is not a moral hangup. It is a specific instinct, like pathogen disgust.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbys View Post
    I love this thread, liberals trying to out woke each other, if one is not woke enough they are a bigot.
    Good summary.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Seems like sexual behaviors that promote and enable increased levels of cooperation could plausibly offer significant adaptive advantages, eh?
    Actually, it seems like they do, in bonobos.

    Pity we are a different kind of ape.

  9. #254
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    I think you misunderstand that quote.

    What the authors are saying is that there are three different kinds of disgust. Sexual disgust is one kind, moral disgust is a different kind.

    In other words, sexual disgust is not a moral hangup. It is a specific instinct, like pathogen disgust.
    No. You are reading stuff into the text that contradicts all the evidence provided that different societies have different attitudes to gay sex. As the disgust reaction is NOT universal across all humanity, it cannot be hard-wired, it has to be a meme, imposing a moral standard on only some societies.

    Let us consider this from a different view point, that of members of the gay community.

    The jury is still out about why homosexuality.
    Abstract

    One of the most enduring and controversial questions in the neuroscience of sexual behaviour surrounds the mechanisms which produce sexual attraction to either males or females. Here, evidence is reviewed which supports the proposal that sexual orientation in humans may be laid down in neural circuitry during early foetal development. Behaviour genetic investigations provide strong evidence for a heritable component to male and female sexual orientation. Linkage studies are partly suggestive of X-linked loci although candidate gene studies have produced null findings. Further evidence demonstrates a role for prenatal sex hormones which may influence the development of a putative network of sexual-orientation-related neural substrates. However, hormonal effects are often inconsistent and investigations rely heavily on 'proxy markers'. A consistent fraternal birth order effect in male sexual orientation also provides support for a model of maternal immunization processes affecting prenatal sexual differentiation. The notion that non-heterosexual preferences may reflect generalized neurodevelopmental perturbations is not supported by available data. These current theories have left little room for learning models of sexual orientation. Future investigations, across the neurosciences, should focus to elucidate the fundamental neural architecture underlying the target-specific direction of human sexual orientation, and their antecedents in developmental neurobiology.
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16143171/

    Abstract

    This article provides a comprehensive review and critique of biological research on sexual orientation published over the last decade. We cover research investigating (a) the neurohormonal theory of sexual orientation (psychoneuroendocrinology, prenatal stress, cerebral asymmetry, neuroanatomy, otoacoustic emissions, anthropometrics), (b) genetic influences, (c) fraternal birth-order effects, and (d) a putative role for developmental instability. Despite inconsistent results across both studies and traits, some support for the neurohormonal theory is garnered, but mostly in men. Genetic research using family and twin methodologies has produced consistent evidence that genes influence sexual orientation, but molecular research has not yet produced compelling evidence for specific genes. Although it has been well established that older brothers increase the odds of homosexuality in men, the route by which this occurs has not been resolved. We conclude with an examination of the limitations of biological research on sexual orientation, including measurement issues (paper and pencil, cognitive, and psychophysiological), and lack of research on women.
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12836730/

    Now, if the aversion is hard-wired, it will be in the genome of all fetuses as soon as the ova is fertilized.
    What mechanism is there that removed the hard-wired disgust reflex from the genome of fetuses that later become gay?
    If it exists, we need a link to a technical paper to establish it as real.
    So, if all fetuses start out with the disgust reflex, and there is no mechanism to override it, why does gay sex even exist.
    All the evidence, backed up by logical arguments, tells us that it is not hard-wired, but a moral imperative.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  10. #255
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    I don't get it, PM.

    You post sources that indicate that being gay is inherited. I agree, though that might not be the whole explanation.

    Then you argue that not being gay is not inherited. What sense does that make?

    And lets not get lost in the weeds with "if it's innate then where is the gene?" We haven't found "the gene" for fear of falling, or loving your children, but few would say that those aren't innate.

  11. #256
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Still debating whether science proves gay sex is disgusting? Wow.

  12. #257
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    I don't get it, PM.

    You post sources that indicate that being gay is inherited. I agree, though that might not be the whole explanation.

    Then you argue that not being gay is not inherited. What sense does that make?

    And lets not get lost in the weeds with "if it's innate then where is the gene?" We haven't found "the gene" for fear of falling, or loving your children, but few would say that those aren't innate.
    The two sources that I sited suggested that male homosexuality might have a genetic component, and that it probably does not for lesbians, and might not for males. What sense does that make? It indicated that the science is as yet incomplete, and there is a lot of doubt on the topic.

    The issue of if it is genetic = hard-wired, why are gays not averse to gay sex. That is not ''lost in the weeds'' it is fundamental.

    P.S. we learn that falling hurts and is risky, that is why we are careful. Studies of the brain's development posit that becoming risk averse is one of the last things hard-wired just before the sutures fuse, and stop brain growth. It is last to be hard-wired, because we need to take risks in order to learn what is harmful.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Seems like sexual behaviors that promote and enable increased levels of cooperation could plausibly offer significant adaptive advantages, eh?
    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Actually, it seems like they do, in bonobos.

    Pity we are a different kind of ape.
    Are we really?

    Bonobos look like smallish chimpanzees, with whom they share 99.6% of their DNA. And both of these great apes share 98.7% of their DNA with humans, making them our closest living relatives.
    Source

    Here's a quote from your OP:

    I tell a LWW that humans, having evolved from monkeys, display many of the same basic instincts, and they hate me for it and claim it is unproven.
    I tell George that the sexual behaviors of bonobos, who share 98.7% of their DNA with humans (just as chimpanzees do), suggest that same-sex attraction might offer significant adaptive advantages, and he hates me for it and claims that bonobos are "a different kind of ape."

    Why is it again, George, that you hate science?

    Tom
    Last edited by WI-Tom; 06-24-2022 at 07:49 AM.
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    I knew it ^^ !

    When I hang upside down from trees and fiddle with my mates bits it's completely normal!

    Phew..!

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    ^You should give the scrumpy a rest.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    The issue of if it is genetic = hard-wired, why are gays not averse to gay sex. That is not ''lost in the weeds'' it is fundamental.
    Pretty much every genetic trait varies among individuals. Different people will exhibit a trait to a greater or lesser degree, some may not have it at all. Most people have no problem with cilantro; it tastes awful to me. This is obvious, and not at all complicated.

    Tom, that's a good point about bonobos. I'd say that a subset of human beings are attracted to the same gender in pretty much every culture and time; it's perfectly normal, just like being straight is for most of us. Nor is it binary; there are plenty of people who don't fall into either category For our species, being something other than purely heterosexual is about as 'unnatural' as the Rocky Mountains. But that has no bearing on whether, for the majority, an aversion to gay sex is hard-wired or learned or some of both.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 06-24-2022 at 10:39 AM.
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post

    The issue of if it is genetic = hard-wired, why are gays not averse to gay sex.
    You may have noticed that gay sex does not pass on your genes.

    Here is your fallacy: genetic=hard-wired=100% of the population will display the trait. Not so.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Most people have no problem with cilantro; it tastes awful to me.
    My problem with cilantro is that I call it coriander. (And I love it.)

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    You may have noticed that gay sex does not pass on your genes.

    Here is your fallacy: genetic=hard-wired=100% of the population will display the trait. Not so.
    No, your fallacy is that eating rotten food can kill you, so you do not pass on genes that do not code for avoiding pathogens. Similarly, incest creates so many genetic problems that it hinders the successful passing on of genes.
    Not so with Gays. Engaging in gay sex does not prevent gays from producing their own children.
    Your argument fails.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    I wish westerners were still disgusted by sushi.
    I'm not leaving.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Pretty much every genetic trait varies among individuals. Different people will exhibit a trait to a greater or lesser degree, some may not have it at all. Most people have no problem with cilantro; it tastes awful to me. This is obvious, and not at all complicated.
    .
    Keith, the debate is not about whether the aversion exists or by how much, it is about whether it is genetic, or learned. George is locked into it being one of the two genetic forms of aversion.
    I am arguing that it is a learned aversion, a meme rather than a gene.
    I maintain that the anthropological evidence, and the logic of how the selfish gene operates, tells us that it is a meme.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    I wish westerners were still disgusted by sushi.
    Do you eat steal tartar, oysters off the half shell, and your steal cooked rare?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Engaging in gay sex does not prevent gays from producing their own children.
    Obviously.

    What it does is reduce your chances of passing on your genes.

    You are being absolutist, when evolution is probability.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyG View Post
    My problem with cilantro is that I call it coriander. (And I love it.)

    Andy
    I love both the seeds and the leaves.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Obviously.

    What it does is reduce your chances of passing on your genes.

    You are being absolutist, when evolution is probability.
    So does contraception.
    So what?

    Where is your evidence that the disgust reflex is universal through all humanity through the ages?
    After all, if it were genetic, it would have appeared everywhere, no?
    So where is your evidence?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    if it were genetic, it would have appeared everywhere, no?
    Sure, just like cystic fibrosis and albinism. They are genetic, so everyone has them, no?

  27. #272
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Sure, just like cystic fibrosis and albinism. They are genetic, so everyone has them, no?
    Cystic fibrosis is due to a faulty gene, Albinism is a rare recessive mutation, So are you saying that the disgust reflex is a faulty gene or a mutation

    Surely you can do better?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  28. #273
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    George, it is not the frequency, as with faulty genes, that happen anywhere at any time in small numbers.
    It is the distribution. Prevalent in some societies over a period of time. Seemingly totally absent in other societies.
    Distribution not frequency. A meme.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  29. #274
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    This really ought to be obvious, but genetic characteristics, physical or behavioral, vary between individuals. The fact that some trait doesn't appear in every individual is not evidence one way or another for it being hard-wired. For example, black hair is common (to a first approximation pretty much all humans have black hair), but it's not at all universal. It's entirely possible that an aversion to gay sex is like black hair; common but not ubiquitous.
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  30. #275
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    This really ought to be obvious, but genetic characteristics, physical or behavioral, vary between individuals. The fact that some trait doesn't appear in every individual is not evidence one way or another for it being hard-wired. For example, black hair is common (to a first approximation pretty much all humans have black hair), but it's not at all universal. It's entirely possible that an aversion to gay sex is like black hair; common but not ubiquitous.
    See post #273.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Hehehe.... I suspect gdot is extremely bored (maybe all of ya are.... I dunno), and simply having a go at you boys, and vice/versa. Lots of noise, not much science, lots of bloviating.

    Learned.

    UR a funny bunch.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  32. #277
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    I'll try a different tack.

    What are your feelings on incest?

    Are you disgusted by the thought of having sex with one of your parents, or your child, or a sibling? I bet you are.

    Yet incest happens. Most people find it disgusting, but some don't. If both partners are adults, it is perfectly legal, and really, none of anyone's business.

    So what is this mechanism by which most people avoid incest, while a few are willing to practice it?

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    george and keith, you guys may be the worst scientists ever.

    keith equating a complex emotional reaction to the gene for black hair.

    george equating same gender sexual activity to incest, and polling the membership for their feelings.

    here's another tack, learn a little bit about evolutionary psychology, the field of study that you are leaning on, insofar as you may be leaning on anything other than your own feelings.

    the question that needs answering first: is it even science at all?

    the wiki summary:

    Evolutionary psychology is a theoretical approach in the social and natural sciences that examines psychological structure from a modern evolutionary perspective.[1] It seeks to identify which human psychological traits are evolved adaptations – that is, the functional products of natural selection or sexual selection in human evolution. Adaptationist thinking about physiological mechanisms, such as the heart, lungs, and immune system, is common in evolutionary biology. Some evolutionary psychologists apply the same thinking to psychology, arguing that the modularity of mind is similar to that of the body and with different modular adaptations serving different functions. These evolutionary psychologists argue that much of human behavior is the output of psychological adaptations that evolved to solve recurrent problems in human ancestral environments.[2]

    Evolutionary psychology is not simply a subdiscipline of psychology—its evolutionary theory can provide a foundational, metatheoretical framework that integrates the entire field of psychology in the same way evolutionary biology has for biology.[3][4][5]

    Evolutionary psychologists hold that behaviors or traits that occur universally in all cultures are good candidates for evolutionary adaptations[6] including the abilities to infer others' emotions, discern kin from non-kin, identify and prefer healthier mates, and cooperate with others. Findings have been made regarding human social behaviour related to infanticide, intelligence, marriage patterns, promiscuity, perception of beauty, bride price, and parental investment. The theories and findings of evolutionary psychology have applications in many fields, including economics, environment, health, law, management, psychiatry, politics, and literature.[7][8]

    Criticism of evolutionary psychology involves questions of testability, cognitive and evolutionary assumptions (such as modular functioning of the brain, and large uncertainty about the ancestral environment), importance of non-genetic and non-adaptive explanations, as well as political and ethical issues due to interpretations of research results.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Like I said in the OP, the LWW hate evolutionary psychology because it punctures their fantasies about reeducating society into a social paradise.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    people can learn to be revolted by their own sexual inclinations.

    people can be taught to loathe their own desires. to loathe themselves.

    a time-honored way to carry out this instruction is to tell them how disgusting their desires and behaviors are.

    and you two think you are exempt, both from being taught yourselves, and from perpetuating a ****ed up scheme of morals. that your "disgust reaction" for a particular sexual act or acts are "innate". "evolved". "hard wired".

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