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Thread: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

  1. #141
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShorelineJohn View Post
    Page after page of weaponized science to support a particular political point of view.
    Yeah? Really? Please explain how I'm 'weaponizing science', and in support of what political point of view?
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  2. #142
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Rather than trying to explain a hatred of science, we should be trying to figure out why tiny minorities with extreme opinions on things get so much air time.

    John Welsford
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  3. #143
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    Rather than trying to explain a hatred of science, we should be trying to figure out why tiny minorities with extreme opinions on things get so much air time.

    John Welsford
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    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  4. #144
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    george and keith, all you are doing is wandering deeper into the woods.

    counting more sociological trees, as if by your own perception of “prevalence” you can derive the biological origins of complex human behaviors.

    it’s no different from your original premise, that you feel something, that it must be instinct, and that you know why it is adaptive and therefore biologically “evolved”.

    pure, self-referential, incomplete logic, avoidance of any and all counter evidence, and bollocks.

  5. #145
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Or if you prefer, everyone can't stop looking at a train wreck.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  6. #146
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    So Mr Baxter, if you could spare some time from posting insults, please enlighten us about how exactly we can determine whether a particular human behavior has a significant evolved genetic hard-wired component. Or how we can show that it doesn't.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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  7. #147
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    So Mr Baxter, if you could spare some time from posting insults, please enlighten us about how exactly we can determine whether a particular human behavior has a significant evolved genetic hard-wired component. Or how we can show that it doesn't.
    Did you read the Wiki that set out the three sorts of disgust reflex? That is a good place to start.
    Then consider what behaviors assist the selfish gene in its efforts to be propagated onward.
    Also think about the theory of memes and how they develop and propagate.

    Those might assist in sorting out the hard-wired and learned behaviors.

    E.G. I posted earlier that it is likely that 40 - 50% of us are hard-wired to need a religion of some sort, but it is most likely that the actual dogma that satisfies that need is an evolving meme, and not hard-wired but learned.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  8. #148
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    consider what behaviors assist the selfish gene in its efforts to be propagated onward.
    Still waiting for someone to explain how the selfish gene would not select for a preference for heterosexual sex with a fertile partner, and distaste for all other forms.

  9. #149
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    I'm rather a fan of Mr Dawkins, so I know about memes (in their original sense, not just pictures of cute cats on the internet).

    I would suggest that most complex and near-universal human behaviors have both hard-wired and learned components. For example, the desire to copulate in a way that can produce offspring is clearly innate and has obvious Darwinian advantages, but the learned taboos and rules and customs and associated folderol vary about as much as a thing can. Sorting out what's genetic and what's learned is difficult at best.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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  10. #150
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Still waiting for someone to explain how the selfish gene would not select for a preference for heterosexual sex with a fertile partner, and distaste for all other forms.
    Two reasons.
    We breed like rabbits given half a chance. The male sex drive is so strong that some males will shove their member into any available orifice. Vacuum cleaner hose, anyone?
    Transgender people are normal and have always been with us, and are no threat to the selfish gene being passed forward due to their lower proportion in the population, in the past they often married anyway, some of them are AC DC, and some want artificial insemination from a donor.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  11. #151
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    "Original sin" and "Shame" were damned powerful inventions by those shamans that thought up Genesis, and set the meme running.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  12. #152
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    A thought about the clothing question. An upright bipedal gait might have required some sort of garment to stop the family jewels banging about and bruising when running after prey.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  13. #153
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    we can't do the physical sciences here, just talking, but we can start from a first principle, some shared reality, and completed logic. Can we agree that human beings ain't nothing but mammals?
    Surely. And can we also agree that we're different from other mammals in some respects, not in others? And that some of these difference are genetic (hairless, bipedal, enormous brains, etc.), some learned (how to conjugate verbs, how to drive a car, how to build boats, etc.), and some have aspects of both (human reproductive behavior).

    Can we find another mammal that covers its sex organs with clothing?
    No. No other mammal wears clothing of any type, anywhere. So? Yet pretty much all humans do. But although it's just a guess, I would doubt that wearing clothing has much to do with 'instinct'.

    Can we find another mammal that hides sexual activity from the kids, and from other adults?
    No. Yet pretty much all humans do, irrespective of culture.

    Can we find another mammal that requires a "disgust reaction" to non-reproductive sexual behavior in order to reproduce effectively?
    Who knows? How can you tell whether chimps or antelopes or aardvarks or any other animal has a disgust reaction to anything? For that matter, do humans need a disgust reaction to reproduce effectively, or do those with it have a small selective advantage over the who don't? How would we know?

    I think after honest consideration of these simple questions, it becomes evident that the extraordinary claim would be that any of these human contrivances are "instinct".
    I disagree. Humans have some genetically-determined characteristics that are different from all other mammals. Some of our genetically-determined characteristics also vary quite a lot between individuals.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 06-20-2022 at 04:18 PM.
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  14. #154
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post


    Who knows? How can you tell whether chimps or antelopes or aardvarks or any other animal has a disgust reaction to anything? For that matter, do humans need a disgust reaction to reproduce effectively, or do those with it have a small selective advantage over the who don't? How would we know?
    Go read that wiki.
    it sets out that disgust at rotten food is necessary to keep us alive, so all organisms will have evolved to avoid what kills them. That is how natural selection works.
    Also, selection breeds in an aversion to mating with diseased or otherwise non-viable partners, that selfish gene again.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  15. #155
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Sure. And an aversion to sex with the same gender might also carry an adaptive advantage.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  16. #156
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Sure. And an aversion to sex with the same gender might also carry an adaptive advantage.
    Go back and read post #151 please.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  17. #157
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    I hate science because it is always right and knows it.
    If he ever drinks the brew of 10 tanna leaves, he will become a monster the likes of which the world has never seen



  18. #158
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    The indian sub continent is complicated , and not particularly to be relied on.

    Those Victorian Christian hang ups again.
    Transex people were known as Khadras (plural) or Hijras in the 50´s/60´s, back in the day when Karachi was Pakistan´s capital city.

    "Khawaja" is a term reserved for a person of distinction, so referring to transex people as "Khawajas" could well be a form of ridicule.

    https://cutacut.com/2018/08/29/urdu-...ly-stop-using/

    However, the main body of this thread is way too lofty for my limited facilities, so I´ll leave it at that.

  19. #159
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    When considering prejudice through the ages, it appears that we are born with an innate sense of "otherness," and a hardwired distrust of the "other." The Other could be the family next door, or people from the village down the road (can't be trusted/are lazy). I submit that race is just one aspect of "otherness."
    He was one of the most supremely stupid men I have ever met. He taught me a great deal.

  20. #160
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by webishop14 View Post
    When considering prejudice through the ages, it appears that we are born with an innate sense of "otherness," and a hardwired distrust of the "other." The Other could be the family next door, or people from the village down the road (can't be trusted/are lazy). I submit that race is just one aspect of "otherness."
    Exactly.

    Just about every primitive culture we know is prejudiced about the "other". They commonly call neighboring tribes by insult names.

  21. #161
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by webishop14 View Post
    When considering prejudice through the ages, it appears that we are born with an innate sense of "otherness," and a hardwired distrust of the "other." The Other could be the family next door, or people from the village down the road (can't be trusted/are lazy). I submit that race is just one aspect of "otherness."
    Just so, there are even "technical" terms for it: in-group and out-group.
    In sociology and social psychology, an in-group is a social group to which a person psychologically identifies as being a member. By contrast, an out-group is a social group with which an individual does not identify. People may for example identify with their peer group, family, community, sports team, political party, gender, race, religion, or nation. It has been found that the psychological membership of social groups and categories is associated with a wide variety of phenomena.
    The terminology was made popular by Henri Tajfel and colleagues beginning in the 1970s during his work in formulating social identity theory. The significance of in-group and out-group categorization was identified using a method called the minimal group paradigm. Tajfel and colleagues found that people can form self-preferencing in-groups within a matter of minutes and that such groups can form even on the basis of completely arbitrary and invented discriminatory characteristics, such as preferences for certain paintings.[1][2][3][4]
    In neurology, there is an established literature[5] about the innate propensity of the human brain to divide the world into us and them valence categories, where the exact membership of the in-group and out-group are socially contingent (hence vulnerable to the instruments of propaganda), and the intensity exists along a spectrum from mild to complete dehumanization of the "othered" group.
    Read more here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-gro...out-group_bias
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    the innate propensity of the human brain to divide the world into us and them valence categories
    Which is why we will never solve the problem of prejudice until we recognize it has an innate component.

  23. #163
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Which is why we will never solve the problem of prejudice until we recognize it has an innate component.
    You should read a source to the end.
    However, there is evidence that elements of favoritism are flexible in that they can be erased by changes in social categorization.[28] One study in the field of behavioural genetics suggests that biological mechanisms may exist which favor a coexistence of both flexible and essentialist systems.[29]
    So our ability to think can erase the downsides of the in-group property.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  24. #164
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    I did read to the end, PM. It seems we are finally in agreement. Prejudice has an innate component, but we can bring it under control through behavioral changes.

  25. #165
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    I did read to the end, PM. It seems we are finally in agreement. Prejudice has an innate component, but we can bring it under control through behavioral changes.
    On this we can agree.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    How can you tell whether chimps or antelopes or aardvarks or any other animal has a disgust reaction to anything?
    Hmm... You're not a pet owner, then. It's pretty obvious when there's a disgust reaction to food, for example.

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  27. #167
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    It seems we are finally in agreement. Prejudice has an innate component, but we can bring it under control through behavioral changes.
    I agree with that completely.

    What were we arguing about, again?

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Hmm... You're not a pet owner, then. It's pretty obvious when there's a disgust reaction to food, for example.
    Oh, sure; when one of the cats sniffs the stuff in the bowl and looks at you like you're the biggest fool that ever walked the earth, you can make a pretty good guess. I would bet quite a lot that it's a disgust reaction very much like ours - but how do we know do for sure? Functional MRI brain scans perhaps? It's not easy.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 06-21-2022 at 09:20 AM.
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  28. #168
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    this is like the end of a doctor phil episode. applause all around.

    i love science, so many things to be declared.

    that should do it, right, until next time john smith gets curious. may it be at least another year.

  29. #169
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    The bilge at its finest, 318 pages of acrimonious argument when we're more or less in agreement about the fundamental stuff. Nice work, guys.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  30. #170
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    I agree with that completely.

    What were we arguing about, again?
    Gay sex.
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  31. #171
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    I thought it was hatred. Or was it environment vs heredity? (A false dichotomy if there ever was one.) Hey, I know! We can argue about what we were arguing about!
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  32. #172
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    I thought it was homophobia, and what causes it.

    Some argued that it is all social conditioning, so it could be eradicated once and be gone forever, like slavery.

    Others - myself included - argued that it has an evolutionary basis so there will be some with homophobic tendencies in every generation. Controlling it is a permanent task, like rape.

  33. #173
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Well, one way or another, we agree hatred and prejudice against gay folks is a Very Bad Idea, and we should try to reduce it as much as possible. This is genuine progress, a lot better than the discussion would have gone not that many years ago.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 06-21-2022 at 11:05 AM.
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  34. #174
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    I thought it was homophobia, and what causes it.

    Some argued that it is all social conditioning, so it could be eradicated once and be gone forever, like slavery.

    Others - myself included - argued that it has an evolutionary basis so there will be some with homophobic tendencies in every generation. Controlling it is a permanent task, like rape.
    Hey, lookit, lookit, George agrees with me again.
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of science?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Oh, sure; when one of the cats sniffs the stuff in the bowl and looks at you like you're the biggest fool that ever walked the earth, you can make a pretty good guess. I would bet quite a lot that it's a disgust reaction very much like ours - but how do we know do for sure? Functional MRI brain scans perhaps? It's not easy.
    You may be overthinking this one, Keith...



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