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Thread: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

  1. #141
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    L.W. hates the science of evolutionary psychology because it conflicts with some of his dogmas. At the extremes, the left mirrors the right, which also can't accept evolution.

    This is how I think it goes: children find all sex to be disgusting. This is good, because you can catch stuff from rubbing against other monkeys and exchanging bodily fluids. L.W. might not have found sex icky as a child, but I guarantee everyone else here did, without being taught.

    Then puberty kicks in and the sexual urge overcomes the disgust reaction - but only towards those you find sexually attractive.

    Try this. Picture someone of the gender that you normally find sexually attractive, whichever that may be. Now picture them to be grossly obese, ugly-faced, ill-tempered. Now picture them naked on a bed. Is your gut instinct to join them or run?
    what science george. link it here. name some eminent scientists who have done the actual work by method on this subject. or, just post that grad student's blog post again, if that's all you got.

    one of my dogmas is, "don't call your own half-baked musings science". no matter how smart you are.

    do you think your post is "scientific"?

    "this is how i think it goes claptrap claptrap claptrap".

  2. #142
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Dodging my question with insults as usual, Mr. Baxter. But you'll note that I allowed an exception for you. Find me another bilge rat that did not find sex icky as a child, and then you can claptrap me.

  3. #143
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Dodging my question with insults as usual, Mr. Baxter. But you'll note that I allowed an exception for you. Find me another bilge rat that did not find sex icky as a child, and then you can claptrap me.
    once again, doing science by polling an internet forum.

    i don't answer your questions because they are meaningless and prurient. i dodge nothing.

    where's the science supporting your original premise, george. where.

    quit trying to smear me. show the support for your assertion.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Sure. Good and bad are human concepts; that's the point. In nature, whatever works, works, and if we don't like it, tough.
    Too true, and based on desire.. good supports/enables desire, bad thwarts it. Nothing more, nothing less.



    Originally Posted by George.
    I think it's the other way around. Disgust is instinctive, but kids learned by exposure that homosexual couples are no more disgusting than anyone else.
    Babies will happily eat their own poop. They have to be/are taught "that's yucky, don't do it". There's nothing instinctive about disgust.




    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    That is a true statement.

    But you know, there are a lot of other groups that aren't all that tolerant, either.
    Ah, but (all) those others haven't gone around the world claiming absolute high ground and killing all who don't toe their line. I get (one particular) religion has members who actively fight the 'gays are bad' meme.. but they do so perhaps more in spite of, not because of the religion - meaning, they are not 'the religion'. Amazingly, they mostly don't understand that. When a super majority of a religion/leaders/followers posit a particular view, that is the religion.


    and elf nicely nailed what is a mostly unconscious 'knowing' of too many males reactions to homosexual advances.. a reaction women mostly don't have to the same. Interesting. I understand more dominant males wouldn't necessarily have that reaction, but most males only imagine themselves dominant. Que Tyson's comment re: '..until they get punched in the face'.

  5. #145
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    where's the science supporting your original premise, george. where.
    You can start your learning here:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgust

    Self-report and behavioural studies found that disgust elicitors include:



    ...

    Tybur, et al., outlines three domains of disgust: pathogen disgust, which "motivates the avoidance of infectious microorganisms"; sexual disgust, "which motivates the avoidance of [dangerous] sexual partners and behaviors"

    ...

    Women generally report greater disgust than men, especially regarding sexual disgust or general repulsiveness which have been argued to be consistent with women being more selective regarding sex for evolutionary reasons.[18]

  6. #146
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    You can start your learning here:...
    you have been arguing from authority from the start.

    i was skeptical of your original, unqualified assertion on the previous john smith thread on this same subject.

    in reply to my skepticism, you told me it was "basic science".

    i was still skeptical, and asked for a lead on this science, which did not seem basic, or even likely to me, but i didn't know.

    you went looking, and came back with nothing.

    and a year plus later, you are still arguing from an authority that doesn't exist, sending me to a wiki page to "start learning", not about the actual assertion you made, but a concept you mis-applied, without discipline or diligence, in your own prurient, self-referential, self-rationalizing, unscientific musings.

  7. #147
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    prurient

    damn
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  8. #148
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    For a group of people who mostly agree on how we should behave - i.e. there's nothing at all wrong with being gay; it's just one way some people are, and everybody, whatever their sexual orientation, should be treated with kindness and respect and human rights - we sure can argue bitterly.

    Some degree of aversion toward gay sex among hetorosexual men may be instictive, or it may not. I'd bet it is to some degree, but I could be wrong, and I'm not sure how we'd demonstrate it conclusively one way or another. It can certainly be either reinforced or diminished by culture and learning ('Sodomy is an abomination to the Lord!' or 'Of course Charlie is gay; so? Don't be a twit.') But one way or another, it makes not the slightest difference in how we should treat people.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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  9. #149
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    i read the wiki page on disgust.

    i note that george dot is comparing his "disgust reaction" to gay sex with the disgust for spoiled food, feces, vomit, disease and infection.

    i also note that nowhere on the page is a reference to disgust for non-reproductive sex. and why would there be.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Dodging my question with insults as usual, Mr. Baxter. But you'll note that I allowed an exception for you. Find me another bilge rat that did not find sex icky as a child, and then you can claptrap me.
    Here's one. I do not ever remember it sounding "icky" or the like - though I do remember not caring until I got older. I will say that some of the "knowledgeable" talk I heard about it on the school bus & in the locker room was entertaining...
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    you have been arguing from authority from the start.
    Rubbish, Mr. Baxter. I posted a link to a lengthy and well-referenced Wikipedia article, and quoted some relevant text. It shows you are wrong, so you pretend it doesn't exist and revert to your sophomoric insults.

  12. #152
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    how many times does the average male homo sapiens masterbate in his lifetime.

    "don't you know you are wasting your sperm???!!!"

    we should be disgusted with ourselves.

  13. #153
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Rubbish, Mr. Baxter. I posted a link to a lengthy and well-referenced Wikipedia article, and quoted some relevant text. It shows you are wrong, so you pretend it doesn't exist and revert to your sophomoric insults.
    no it doesn't "show that i am wrong."

    you say that out of authority you don't have. connect the dots for us, george dot, from the wikipedia article to your original assertion about the instinctive "disgust reaction" for gay sex. be specific.

  14. #154
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Rubbish, Mr. Baxter. I posted a link to a lengthy and well-referenced Wikipedia article, and quoted some relevant text. It shows you are wrong, so you pretend it doesn't exist and revert to your sophomoric insults.
    did you or did you not claim that your assertion was "basic science".

    and have you produced the title of the junior high textbook in which i can read all about it.

    and please reprint here my alleged sophomoric insults so that i may be properly ashamed.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by Durnik View Post
    Ah, but (all) those others haven't gone around the world claiming absolute high ground and killing all who don't toe their line.
    You must be older than I thought. I've never killed anyone and I don't think any of my friends have. It is true that hundreds of years ago there was some church-sanctioned conversion by the sword and there are always people who will use religion as an excuse for their own hatred, but that's on them.

    You know, there is so much nonsense on both sides of this thread that I think I'll just let you have yours. This has gotten too silly for words.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

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  16. #156
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    see the section on "morality" in the wiki page regarding disgust, kindly provided by george.

    Although disgust was first thought to be a motivation for humans to only physical contaminants, it has since been applied to moral and social moral contaminants as well. The similarities between these types of disgust can especially be seen in the way people react to the contaminants. For example, if someone stumbles upon a pool of vomit, they will do whatever possible to place as much distance between themselves and the vomit as possible, which can include pinching the nose, closing the eyes, or running away. Likewise, when a group experiences someone who cheats, rapes, or murders another member of the group, its reaction is to shun or expel that person from the group.[64]

    Arguably, there is a completely different construct of the emotion of disgust from the core disgust that can be seen in Ekman's basic emotions. Socio-moral disgust occurs when social or moral boundaries appear to be violated, the socio-moral aspect centers on human violations of the autonomy and dignity of others (e.g., racism, hypocrisy, disloyalty).[65] Socio-moral disgust is different from core disgust. In the 2006 study done by Simpson and colleagues, there was a divergence found in disgust responses between the core elicitors of disgust and the socio-moral elicitors of disgust, suggesting that the makeup of core and socio-moral disgust may be different emotional constructs.[65]

    Studies have found that disgust has been known to predict prejudice and discrimination.[66][67]

  17. #157
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    i read the wiki page on disgust.

    i note that george dot is comparing his "disgust reaction" to gay sex with the disgust for spoiled food, feces, vomit, disease and infection.

    i also note that nowhere on the page is a reference to disgust for non-reproductive sex. and why would there be.
    Why would there be? The reference is to sex, not "non-reproductive sex", whatever that means:

    sexual disgust, "which motivates the avoidance of [dangerous] sexual partners and behaviors"
    Instinctive disgust at sex is a thing, whether it fits your ideology or not.

    If I told you I had sex with a goat, wouldn't you find it disgusting?

  18. #158
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Why would there be? The reference is to sex, not "non-reproductive sex", whatever that means:



    Instinctive disgust at sex is a thing, whether it fits your ideology or not.

    If I told you I had sex with a goat, wouldn't you find it disgusting?
    your original claim was that disgust for gay sex was nature's way of helping male humans get their sperm in the right place.

    have you abandoned that, now in favor of the speculation above? that gay sex is especially dangerous?

    as long as it's consensual, i don't care where you find love.

  19. #159
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    please reprint here my alleged sophomoric insults so that i may be properly ashamed.
    Seriously?


    "don't call your own half-baked musings science"

    "this is how i think it goes claptrap claptrap claptrap"

    i don't answer your questions because they are meaningless and prurient.

    a concept you mis-applied, without discipline or diligence, in your own prurient, self-referential, self-rationalizing, unscientific musings

  20. #160
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    you just compared gay sex to sex with a goat.

    add that to your list of me insulting you, i guess

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    you just compared gay sex to sex with a goat.
    Eh? Read it again, please. 'Sex with a goat' was an example of something that many, even most, people would find disgusting. Isn't it?
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    you just compared gay sex to sex with a goat.
    A leisure center in a Welsh town?
    A ewe tied to a lamp post.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  23. #163
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    i think the, err, money shot is in the wiki "disgust" article george linked, under the subsection on moral disgust, which researchers have shown to be different cognitively from "core disgust".

    Studies have found that disgust has been known to predict prejudice and discrimination.
    which has been my point from the beginning. the "disgust reaction" does rationalize hatred. but it is not instinct. it is learned.

    we were trained in a moral structure that most of us now reject, intellectually at least. it is harder to overcome the emotional training. as we can observe all around us, on this thread and elsewhere, emotions of, for instance, certitude, can utterly overtake reason.

    if you are still looking for biological reasons for your complex emotional response to certain human behaviors, maybe it is time to do some actual work towards enlightenment. we can all easily say that we are enlightened. but for the most part, that easy kind of enlightenment has been spoon fed to us. the real thing is more difficult.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    . . . which has been my point from the beginning. the "disgust reaction" does rationalize hatred. but it is not instinct. it is learned.
    Or possibly it is indeed hard-wired but modified by culture and learning, some of us have it to a greater degree than others, more of it correlates with political conservatism and bigotry, but culture can make it better or worse. I think you may be indulging a little in the 'blank slate' fallacy. Just because something is hard-wired by evolution does not mean we have to encourage it. Some things in that category we have to learn to get over, or get around, or minimize as much as possible.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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  25. #165
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Or possibly it is indeed hard-wired but modified by culture and learning, some of us have it to a greater degree than others, more of it correlates with political conservatism and bigotry, but culture can make it better or worse. I think you may be indulging a little in the 'blank slate' fallacy. Just because something is hard-wired by evolution does not mean we have to encourage it. Some things in that category we have to learn to get over, or get around, or minimize as much as possible.
    That was the message of the Wiki.
    Rotting food and stagnant water is disgusting to those animals that have not evolved resistance to the pathogens created by rot. That is hard-wired.
    Another is evolved to stop us wasting our genes by breeding with a poor quality or diseased mate.
    Other disgust triggers are cultural, and learned at the mother's knee.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    you just compared gay sex to sex with a goat.
    No I didn't. I just tried to show you that there is such a thing as disgust for sex with the "other". For some it is triggered by homosexuality, for you it takes a goat.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    That was the message of the Wiki.

    Another is evolved to stop us wasting our genes by breeding with a poor quality or diseased mate.
    And breeding with a mate with whom reproduction is impossible is not "wasting our genes"?

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    these speculations strike me just like jimmy the greek speculating about the athletic prowess of african americans. doing "sciency" thinking in the service of bigotry.

    it cost him his career, and more importantly, his reputation.

    these continual, bigoted maunderings won't cost you any money, but i've certainly reduced my estimation of you.

    another insult for your list, george.

  29. #169
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    And breeding with a mate with whom reproduction is impossible is not "wasting our genes"?
    A non sequitur. But some one of your intelligence knows that.
    Did you never masturbate as a young person? What about the Catholic withdrawal method? Or condoms? I could go on.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  30. #170
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Does the idea of sex with goats disgust you, PM?

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    A non sequitur. But some one of your intelligence knows that.
    Did you never masturbate as a young person? What about the Catholic withdrawal method? Or condoms? I could go on.
    Perhaps the greatest 'go on' is even with pregnancy - generally 1, at most 5? 6? of how many millions succeed.. the gawd fantasy obviously has a low regard for sperm.



    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    You must be older than I thought. I've never killed anyone and I don't think any of my friends have. It is true that hundreds of years ago there was some church-sanctioned conversion by the sword and there are always people who will use religion as an excuse for their own hatred, but that's on them.

    You know, there is so much nonsense on both sides of this thread that I think I'll just let you have yours. This has gotten too silly for words.
    The only nonsense here is yours.. religion still drives the self proclaimed 'most christian nation'. see, esp, Dubya's invasion of Iraq.. 'god told me to..' and the people followed. Tho the message is now couched in 'more sophisticated terms', the meaning hasn't changed. I covered the rest, you - unsurprisingly - ignored. And yes, it would be silly of me to imagine you might ever see.. but others read, and perhaps some see.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Waste of time thread.

    I did have to look up the term "Log Cabin Republicans" though, after bobby's mentioned it. I'd never come across it before.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by Durnik View Post
    Perhaps the greatest 'go on' is even with pregnancy - generally 1, at most 5? 6? of how many millions succeed.. the gawd fantasy obviously has a low regard for sperm.
    And then about 20% are aborted before the woman knows that she was pregnant.
    So much for
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  34. #174
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Will someone please PM me when George posts something sensible?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Will someone please PM me when George posts something sensible?
    here? or on tom montgomery's thread?
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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