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Thread: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

  1. #1
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    Default Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Some years back, Barney Frank was in one of those after hours sessions with a number of fellow congressmen.

    One by one he asked republican members how it would impact their marriage if he and his boyfriend were allowed to marry.

    Every one of them said their marriage would not be impacted in any way, to which he responded by asking how, then, do they come to believe it would impact other heterosexual marriages.

    I had a conversation with a wonderful young woman friend who was adamantly against it, but was unable to explain how anyone was harmed by it.

    Marriage is a state thing. The state issues the license and the certificate. The state grants the divorce if the marriage doesn't work out. It is the state that empowers the priest, rabbi, etc. to perform the ceremony.

    There was a time when it was commonly believed people chose to be left-handed, and they were forced to write with their right hand. At some point, it seems everyone acknowledged they were born left-handed.

    Why is it so difficult to believe people are born gay, or grow to feel they are in the wrong body?
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    To the best of my recollection, there have only been two homophobic and proud members of this forum. Both are banned for life.
    So who do you expect to give an informed answer?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    The gay men I know have great dress sense, are artistic, talented and intelligent. It's so annoying. What people do with like minded people doesn't bother me and is none of my business. I just really dislike attention seeking and exhibitionism. JayInOz

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    I suspect hatred for gays is much like racism, not rational, more like some emotional impulse that people chose not to control.
    Ragnar B.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayInOz View Post
    The gay men I know have great dress sense, are artistic, talented and intelligent. It's so annoying. What people do with like minded people doesn't bother me and is none of my business. I just really dislike attention seeking and exhibitionism. JayInOz
    So you don't like hetero lads and lassies on the pull either?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    I don't know how to say it in ways which don't sound pejorative. Some psychological models talk about the key motivating emotions people have, like fear, love, anger, etc. One of those emotions is disgust. Jonathan Haidt wrote about differences in political affiliations which seemed to hinge on the different ways that people are affected by those emotions - he drew on a bunch of empirical, survey data to show that the liberal/conservative divide reflects genuine differences in the weight those emotions have in people's knee-jerk approaches to the world.

    Haidt noted that among conservatives, disgust was a more motivating emotion than it was among liberals. I think that's behind the visceral reaction to LGBTQ stuff - a reaction of what they experience as disgust, to something their neural wiring identifies as unnatural, or in some sense opposed to the natural order. Haidt's point was that the neurological reaction is prior to conscious thought; that the brain searches after the fact for logic or other conscious arguments to explain or justify the neurological reaction they have already experienced.

    I'm not saying that homosexuality is unnatural, because it isn't. Not in our species, or others. Nor am I saying that how it's expressed is disgusting- it isn't my attraction, but big deal.

    What I am saying is that i think the hate reaction is a response to people feeling the emotion of disgust, which in other contexts (like feeling disgust at discovering rotting meat) was adaptive, kept our species alive. Michael Pollan talks about our fascination with fermented food - like stinky cheese, or kimchi, or etc, as "an erotics of disgust" as we're both attracted and repulsed by this thing which arouses disgust in the case of fermented foods, the odors of decay and death. Pollan talks about how people have very visceral reactions to this - some really are captivated by stinky cheeses, and others,want nothing to do with it at all.

    I think the erotics of disgust have a lot to do with how violence against people who somehow get identified as "disgusting" is fantasized. Smashing the "disgusting" thing is an interaction with the emotion of disgust, is in some sense, a way of savoring that emotion. And it's also related, I think, to the tendency of some such violent people to be exposed as having themselves some same sex attractions themselves, which they've denied, or suppressed, or only permitted themselves to experience in closeted ways.
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    That's seems a valid explanation. Doesn't make a lot of sense, but then emotions tend not to.

    My religious people seem to think anything sexual is disgusting.

    I guess it's their right to find something disgusting, but that seems not, to me, a valid reason to make it illegal, or deny people their rights.

    A lot of speech can be seen as disgusting, but it's protected, IMO, as long as it's an opinion.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    I am reminded of the Greek creation myths, one version of which has humanity originally formed with two heads, four arms two sets of damgly bits and for legs. Some were both male, some both female and some androgynous.
    For some reason the gods thought that these creatures ware too powerful, there was an argument about whether they should be destroyed, until Zeus split them in two, making two modern humans out of each doublet. We were condemned to be continually searching for out other hlf, our soul mate.
    Now, as there were double males split and double females split, homosexuality is an inevitable outcome as the halves search for their original soulmate.
    https://www.greecehighdefinition.com...h-of-soulmates
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Due to both mine and my wife’s professions I’ve both known, socialized and worked with many homosexuals. We’ve no problem with the individuals all of which have been friendly, kind and fun people.
    I think the issues stem from the extremists on both sides of the issue. A large Pride rally is seen seen by some as a threat by others. If that Rally includes same sex activities that would be in bad taste in public for heterosexual couples as well then it comes down to an “in your face” confrontational situation.
    Even most of the far right folks that I know and work with don’t have a problem with individuals being gay. They really don’t care either way. It’s when it’s shoved upon them, when they are told they MUST accept it that friction starts.
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    There was a time when it was commonly believed people chose to be left-handed, and they were forced to write with their right hand
    That would be me, and there appears to be a strong connection between that "retraining" and stuttering (which I also suffered from, and still do, to some extent).

    Despite robust statistical and clinical evidence, the connection between forced hand switching and stuttering has largely been forgotten. Recent imaging studies of stutterers, however, have suggested that stuttering is tied to disturbed signal transmission between the hemispheres. Similar to the Iowa researchers of the 1930s, current investigators have found connections between stuttering and weak laterality
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22332811/
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    The psychoanalytical explanation; perpetrators are usually insecure macho's who are in denial about they own latent homosexuality.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    To the best of my recollection, there have only been two homophobic and proud members of this forum. Both are banned for life.
    So who do you expect to give an informed answer?
    I can't remember who you might have in mind, the two banned ex-members, but Skip Kilpatrick is openly gay, and posts about his partner Ken, though I don't recall his ever being more open about his private life than any of the rest of us.

    At the same time, I suppose Skip has a unique, among us, POV concerning the subject, I have no idea what kind of life he's had coming out and etc, but OTOH, all of the rest of us have just as much insight to the subject of hate of homosexuals as any homosexual, since it is the non's who are the ones with the hate and not gay people, After all, you don't suppose any gay-bashers have bothered to inform any gay person they hate about the true nature of the hatred with penetrating honesty. And I'm also sure we've all pretty much heard all the usual rationale that gets any public discourse, mostly from the god-botherers who have to march and protest and bother the government over equal rights for gay people.
    Last edited by Jim Mahan; 06-15-2022 at 08:48 AM.
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    [QUOTE=Reynard38;6678187}A large Pride rally is seen seen by some as a threat by others. If that Rally includes same sex activities that would be in bad taste in public for heterosexual couples as well then it comes down to an “in your face” confrontational situation.
    Even most of the far right folks that I know and work with don’t have a problem with individuals being gay. They really don’t care either way. It’s when it’s shoved upon them, when they are told they MUST accept it that friction starts.[/QUOTE]

    If homophobia had not been deeply embedded in the establishment, there would have been any need for Gay Pride marches, Just as there should not be any need for Black Lives Matter marches.

    That said, although homophobia still exists in the UK Pride marches are now just an excuse for Carnival, alongside Diwali, Chinese New Year and Notting Hill.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by dutchpp View Post
    The psychoanalytical explanation; perpetrators are usually insecure macho's who are in denial about they own latent homosexuality.
    Beat me to it. The religions of the book and their continuing reinterpretations have not been any help either.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Beat me to it. The religions of the book and their continuing reinterpretations have not been any help either.
    Yep, it all began with someone refusing to impregnate his brother's widow outside of wedlock. The total barsteward that he was.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    I know a fair number of gays, mostly younger men, and I certainly don't hate them. As mentioned above, a fair number of them seem to be gifted in one way or another and they mostly seem intelligent. A few are screwed up but that can be said about hetros as well.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    TomF's got it dead on. A stronger disgust reflex correlates very well with political conservatism and all sorts of attitudes normally associated with it, although exactly which ones varies a lot by culture and tradition. Don't get me wrong, I feel like gay sex is pretty yucky, but so are beets, and an aversion to either isn't justification for treating people badly.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    the hate reaction is a response to people feeling the emotion of disgust

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    religious people seem to think anything sexual is disgusting.
    There you have it.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    I think much of it is conditioning. It's what they have been taught since they were a small child. I also think that many are also either so closeted they themselves do not know they are gay or bi. All they know is some people of the same sex make them feel funny and it's wrong.

    We have one guy at work who thinks letting your wife or girlfriend take a strapon to you is "gay". I personally think it's kinky, but not at all gay.
    "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito"

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Ok I was going to take John to task for less than bright questions but that covers it.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    There you have it.
    I'm a religious person. And I think sex rocks. I'm hardly unique.

    Perhaps check how broad the brushes are, eh?
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    I didn't say all religious people, Tom, or even only religious people. But churches of various stripes do seem to be epicenters for homophobia and anti-sex agitation in general. The disgust factor just makes it easier for them in the case of homophobia.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    wtf am i doing with my life

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Absolutely. There are without question religious groups which have historically inflamed this hatred, and are also at the forefront of it today.

    I'd only answer that there are also religious groups which have historically been at the forefront of LGBTQ rights issues, and are also at the forefront of such today. I've been in such groups all my life.

    Since the trope about religious folks is virtually always the former, it's worth noting the latter.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    wtf am i doing with my life
    eating way too many eggs.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    On my first flight to San Francisco (boss used to reserve all the trips to California for himself, but we now had a new boss) I sat beside a woman who told me two things, try the calamari, and that the gay rights convention was in progress. The calamari was good, have had more since. The gay rights parade was just outside the convention hall, so I went out to see it on lunch break. It was certainly entertaining, but in no way persuaded me to switch teams. Have known a few gays and lesbians over the years (no, not the Biblical "know) and they just seemed pretty much like anyone else.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    reading too many conversations on the internet, tom.

    we don't need this to become an annual discussion.

    it's gross. a bunch of "straight" guys talking about how their "natural" disgust for gay sex is the origin for hatred.

    might as well call the "natural" disgust for miscegenation the origin of racial bigotry. "not that i condone racial bigotry, but interracial sex creeps me out".

    it's demoralizing to see how ****ing lame we are.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    it's demoralizing to see how ****ing lame we are.
    i feel a certain kinship with lesbians
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    i feel a certain kinship with lesbians
    Like Eddy Izzard, a lesbian trapped in a man's body?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    .
    So far as I know no one has ever been required to attend a pride parade. I have never viewed a pride parade. It's kind of difficult to be offended by behavior one cannot view. I could, of course, be offended nevertheless if I was convinced the purpose of a pride parade is recruitment. There are people who believe that to be so, God help them.
    "I'll tell you why [religion's] not a scam. In my opinion, all right? Tide goes in, tide goes out. Never a miscommunication. You can't explain that."Bill O'Reilly

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    I worked with log cabin republicans, at convention's no one hated them and they were welcomed..

    All very nice people..

    This thread is just another example of liberals projecting..

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    The Bible tells fundamentalist Judeo-Christians that homosexuality is an abomination.

    My ex-wife, who became ultra-Orthodox Jewish 15 years into our marriage, took this position, which was far from her pre-religious view. To her adopted community, this did not mean outright hostility, but homosexuals were treated with a mixture of pity and distain, like people who had lost their way. There was the belief that it was a choice, and they could be 'cured'. There were a few people within the community who were closeted homosexuals, which was widely suspected but never openly discussed, and they had to remain closeted or leave.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Hatred is hatred, L.W., and is unjustified. On that, I think, we agree. If I'm coming across as somehow justifying such hatred, then I've got to be clearer. There's no justification for it.

    What Haidt said in his book, FWIW, is that people are trapped by their neurological responses to the degree that they're unaware of them. Not least because the neurological wiring firing the emotional responses is way faster than the wiring we use to think and reason. We're wound up well before we have time to think - and we now have the tech to measure and confirm this, in terms of how swiftly different parts of the brain light up.

    Haidt used the analogy of the neurology being like an elephant, and the conscious part of the brain like the rider on top. Seems hugely descriptive to me, and especially descriptive of how the "elephant" reacts when it's encouraged to get wound up and go in a particular direction. And how a "rider" needs to anticipate, if there's any hope of not being taken where they don't want to go.

    Haidt's project had zip to do with issues of sexual orientation, but of recognizing what dynamics are going on which contribute to the chasm between liberals and conservatives. And how to not be controlled by them, by the respective "elephants" we ride.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    There is no justification for hatred, and yet we all hate. It is a human universal, and usually impulsive, arising from instinct. Therefore, it may not have a justification, but it has an explanation.

    Just because the explanation does not make our species look good doesn't mean it is not true.

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