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Thread: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

  1. #106
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    I actually think I have an answer to my question.

    Religious people, I guess, see being gay as a mistake.
    I am sure you don't mean to cast such a wide net.

    Some of the most religious people I know are gay or gay allies.
    Skip

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  2. #107
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by SKIP KILPATRICK View Post
    I am sure you don't mean to cast such a wide net.

    Some of the most religious people I know are gay or gay allies.
    John might have had trouble spelling the word "bigots" Predictive text can be a pain in the but.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  3. #108
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    You misunderstand the word natural. Murder is natural. So is theft, rape, infanticide, jealousy, selfishness, adultery, and hate itself. Alcoholism and drug addiction are natural, covid-19 is natural, and the wasps that inject their larvae into living spiders, to be slowly devoured from the inside out, are natural. If an asteroid wipes us out it will be natural.

    Just because something is natural doesn't mean we can't suppress it.
    of course.

    your natural state is to be indifferent to same gender sex. just like every other animal in the kingdom. you have been taught to suppress that indifference, replacing it with a "disgust reaction", which you continue to insist is "instinct", as demonstrated by "basic science". science which doesn't exist and never will.

    as a branch of science your notion is the provence of evolutionary psych, which, as a field, is itself problematic at best. poke around a bit and you find a kind of a seedy underbelly of marginal "scientists" trying to do science by common sense and reason, in the service of prejudices.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    I don't get why people say gay sex is gross. The acts they engage in are the same ones hetro couples engage in, though there are some hetro acts unavailable to them.

    So why do people react the way they do?


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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    we all grew up in a culture in transition.

    as paul says "i used to be a homophobe".

    exactly.

    and the easy part is the words. the part of your brain most easily dominated, forming sentences. "i don't hate gays".

    easy peasy.

    the harder part is dealing with the visceral emotion you have been trained in. if you find yourself on the internet telling people how you are grossed out by gay sex, if you find yoirself signalling to your peers, over and over, "i'm straight, not that there's anything wrong with gays", you are not dealing with it. you are just propagating it.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Is it a moral failing that I don't like kimchi, or aged shark, or even pickled herring? And that in other cultures, these things are delicacies? Am I propagating something odious by saying that, while also maintaining that folks who love them are fine people, as entitled to their own preferences as I?
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    My mother, a very tolerant being, but a bit traditional, said ' I don't have a problem with people liking same sex friends, just I can't get over the practices in bed. Obviously anal sex, though it is apparently not unusual in hetero relationships. She, born in 1919, may have been a bit behind the times, even when she made the comment in about 1970.

  8. #113
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    Your natural state is to be indifferent to same gender sex. just like every other animal in the kingdom. you have been taught to suppress that indifference, replacing it with a "disgust reaction", which you continue to insist is "instinct", as demonstrated by "basic science". science which doesn't exist and never will.
    And you know this how?
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  9. #114
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew2 View Post
    My mother, a very tolerant being, but a bit traditional, said ' I don't have a problem with people liking same sex friends, just I can't get over the practices in bed. Obviously anal sex, though it is apparently not unusual in hetero relationships. She, born in 1919, may have been a bit behind the times, even when she made the comment in about 1970.
    You have just reminded me of a no longer acceptable ethnic joke.

    A young innocent lass was being courted by a lad from a different culture.
    Her friends/or family members took her aside for some delicate sex ed. She was told to be aware that men from the boyfriends culture enjoy sex a "different" way.
    After they had settled into a joy filled marriage, she coyly said to him" I know that there is another way, would you like to try it?"

    " What? And fill the house with kids?"
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  10. #115
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Is it a moral failing that I don't like kimchi, or aged shark, or even pickled herring? And that in other cultures, these things are delicacies? Am I propagating something odious by saying that, while also maintaining that folks who love them are fine people, as entitled to their own preferences as I?
    having a preference, learned or otherwise, is not the same as saying that your disgust for someone else's preference or behavior is an adaptive biological trait. which last bit is the position promoted by george. and keith, not you.

  11. #116
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    So what difference does it make if straight guys thinking gay sex is yucky is hard-wired by evolution, or learned because it's one of societies' truisms? Does it change what kind of behavior is right and wrong in the slightest?

    A hypothetical: What if I could demonstrate conclusively that my dislike of beets is hereditary, and evolved because the only varieties of beets occurring naturally in some place my distant ancestors lived were poisonous? Does that mean we should ban beets? Shun those who like them? Teach our children that they're evil because God cursed them?
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    And you know this how?
    i look for evidence in nature that a "disgust reaction" for non-reproductive sexual activity is a common trait, and therefore likely adaptive and selected for biologically.

    what i see instead is no evidence. even in the history of human culture, i find examples that run counter to the notion.

    at this point, that a "disgust reaction" is "hard wired" or "instinct" is an extraordinary claim, requiring extraordinary evidence. but, rather than any evidence, all i get from you fellas is an insistence that you are right, that i don't understand nature, blah blah blah.

    oh, and one blog post from a would be evolutionary psychologist. that was a classic.

  13. #118
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    So what difference does it make if straight guys thinking gay sex is yucky is hard-wired by evolution, or learned because it's one of societies' truisms? Does it change what kind of behavior is right and wrong in the slightest?
    do you think that how we talk about stuff has any consequence?

  14. #119
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    we all grew up in a culture in transition.

    as paul says "i used to be a homophobe".

    exactly.

    and the easy part is the words. the part of your brain most easily dominated, forming sentences. "i don't hate gays".

    easy peasy.

    the harder part is dealing with the visceral emotion you have been trained in. if you find yourself on the internet telling people how you are grossed out by gay sex, if you find yoirself signalling to your peers, over and over, "i'm straight, not that there's anything wrong with gays", you are not dealing with it. you are just propagating it.
    I was working on a project with a gay woman partner, and after a while she confided that she was gay. I could see that she was a bit apprehensive about my possible reaction, but when I said that we had a common interest in that we both liked girls the tension disappeared completely.
    We used to now and again get out of the office for a lunch break at a sidewalk cafe, and would compare notes on the girls walking past. That was fun.

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  15. #120
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    do you think that how we talk about stuff has any consequence?
    Sometimes. But you didn't answer the question.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    So what difference does it make if straight guys thinking gay sex is yucky is hard-wired by evolution, or learned because it's one of societies' truisms? Does it change what kind of behavior is right and wrong in the slightest?

    A hypothetical: What if I could demonstrate conclusively that my dislike of beets is hereditary, and evolved because the only varieties of beets occurring naturally in some place my distant ancestors lived were poisonous? Does that mean we should ban beets? Shun those who like them? Teach our children that they're evil because God cursed them?
    Not helped by religion wanting more members, so not tolerent of non child producing efforts. Ditto birth control in the RC.

    While I follow Christian ethics (or even ancient chinese ones) The ones thought up by assorted churches are just self promoting control methods.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    having a preference, learned or otherwise, is not the same as saying that your disgust for someone else's preference or behavior is an adaptive biological trait. which last bit is the position promoted by george. and keith, not you.
    On the question of nature/nurture in terms of the origin of the disgust reaction, I'm agnostic eh? I really don't know how the disgust reaction to this or that prompt originates, only that it does.

    That said, I have a niggling suspicion that, not unlike how epigenetics work, there may be some remnant trigger for "disgust" as for any number of motive reactions, which can be amplified or nullified through the inevitable cultural conditioning.

    I think that's likely so whether we're talking about attitudes towards various sexual behaviours, or xenophobia and racism, and probably a whole lot of such knee-jerk reactions which occur prompting visceral responses through neurological wiring faster than conscious thought or logic.

    Complicating things, I suspect that in some cases, the neurological wiring basis for disgust reactions (e.g. to the smell of rotting shellfish) might have its origins in social conditioning. See enough people die in convulsions from seafood poisoning, and one's small band of hunter-gatherers probably developed some social learning about it, and associated an aversion to grisly death with the smell. Over a few dozen generations, it's not inconceivable that what began as social learning becomes encoded in neurology. After all, we understand that there are epigenetic elements now to intergenerational trauma, where generations at 2-3 removes exhibit characteristics associated with their grandparents' trauma.

    I think there's probably going to turn out to be less distinction on a multi-generational scale between culture and some aspects of neurology than it appears. That on a long enough time scale and with enough repetition, nurture influences nature, just as nature influences nurture.
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  18. #123
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    I think it's the other way around. Disgust is instinctive, but kids learned by exposure that homosexual couples are no more disgusting than anyone else.

    We have a lot of basic instincts that have to be disciplined through learning, or they express themselves in unpleasant ways.
    I'm of the opinion that we grow up in a culture that predicates certain norms, and disgust or dislike is societies way of keeping us within those norms. There are, even today with our increasingly interlinked world, practices within some societies that are totally anathema in some others. If you travel a lot, you'll trip over some of those, and it pays to mentally take a step back and re think the feelings that these practices generate.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Is it a moral failing that I don't like kimchi, or aged shark, or even pickled herring? And that in other cultures, these things are delicacies? Am I propagating something odious by saying that, while also maintaining that folks who love them are fine people, as entitled to their own preferences as I?
    one other thing, tom.

    i don't make it a practice to signal disgust about someone else's food. i bet you are similar.

    first time i met my inlaws, there was a skinned calf head in a bucket in the hallway, on 100f day. that was dinner. i didn't blink. for the sake of my american gut biome, i expressed enthusiasm and offered to get the cooking process started, like, right away.

    my wife for the first years of our marriage had hankerings for tripe. tacos and menudo. through detective work, she eventually figured out that i was not a big fan. eventually, she lost the taste for it, too. but we can both fake it when we need to. that's just common courtesy.

    no, you don't have to fake enjoying gay sex to be polite. but we don't have to talk here about how yucky it is, either. that's just common courtesy.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Sometimes. But you didn't answer the question.
    how we talk about stuff matters. that's the answer to your question.

    if you are going to say some obnoxious ****, you'd better be right. and you are not.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    I'm of the opinion that we grow up in a culture that predicates certain norms, and disgust or dislike is societies way of keeping us within those norms. There are, even today with our increasingly interlinked world, practices within some societies that are totally anathema in some others. If you travel a lot, you'll trip over some of those, and it pays to mentally take a step back and re think the feelings that these practices generate.

    John Welsford
    True.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Why do people hate other people who arenít harming anyone?

    Because people are judgmental garbage bags who never look in mirrors at their own ****.

    Pretty much.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Why do people hate other people who aren’t harming anyone?

    Because people are judgmental garbage bags who never look in mirrors at their own ****.

    Pretty much.
    word.
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    If you are going to say some obnoxious ****, you'd better be right. and you are not.
    And you know this how?

    But I really think you're objecting to a caricature of what I said, or possibly how it could be distorted to justify bigotry.

    And no, I don't rattle on about how I find gay sex yucky around gay friends, unless perhaps we were having a serious discussion something like the one on this thread. That would be seriously tacky.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    ...

    no, you don't have to fake enjoying gay sex to be polite. but we don't have to talk here about how yucky it is, either. that's just common courtesy.
    Fair point.

    There's more to say, but I'll try not to say it.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    And you know this how?

    But I really think you're objecting to a caricature of what I said, or possibly how it could be distorted to justify bigotry.

    And no, I don't rattle on about how I find gay sex yucky around gay friends, unless perhaps we were having a serious discussion something like the one on this thread. That would be seriously tacky.
    right, zero responsibility for your own typing. the problem is with me, and my failed comprehension of your deep thoughts.

    go gaslight somebody who cares.

  27. #132
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    I actually think I have an answer to my question.

    Religious people, I guess, see being gay as a mistake. If they accept one is born gay, then they must accept God made a mistake, and that may be something they cannot get their head around, so they cannot accept people being born gay. Therefore it must a choice, and they don't approve of that choice.

    Of course, many see the foreskin as a mistake, and the religious folk apparently came to accept people are born left-handed.

    What I can't get my head around is why they care to the extent they do.
    Truthfully, John, what I can't get my head around is why you always seem to complain about religion. I am waiting for the day that you blame religion for a summer rain shower.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

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  28. #133
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Truthfully, John, what I can't get my head around is why you always seem to complain about religion. I am waiting for the day that you blame religion for a summer rain shower.
    It is not religion per se.
    But now and through history, a lot of aerosols use/d religion as a justification for being aerosols.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  29. #134
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    one other thing, tom.

    my wife for the first years of our marriage had hankerings for tripe. tacos and menudo. through detective work, she eventually figured out that i was not a big fan. eventually, she lost the taste for it, too. but we can both fake it when we need to. that's just common courtesy.
    When we first settled here in Barrow, there was a shop that sold nothing but tripe, cow heels and elder. I do regret not trying tripe when it was available, although my impression is that it is a bland protein source that is a vehicle for other flavors like mustard or onions.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    It is not religion per se.
    But now and through history, a lot of aerosols use/d religion as a justification for being aerosols.
    That is a true statement.

    But you know, there are a lot of other groups that aren't all that tolerant, either.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

    "Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." - Will Rogers

    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - Groucho Marx

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    When we first settled here in Barrow, there was a shop that sold nothing but tripe, cow heels and elder. I do regret not trying tripe when it was available, although my impression is that it is a bland protein source that is a vehicle for other flavors like mustard or onions.
    Local Portuguese stew, Cozida Portuguesa, a bean dish with pork, also has a variant with tripe. Very good, but as you say, not a lot of flavour on it's own.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    L.W. hates the science of evolutionary psychology because it conflicts with some of his dogmas. At the extremes, the left mirrors the right, which also can't accept evolution.

    This is how I think it goes: children find all sex to be disgusting. This is good, because you can catch stuff from rubbing against other monkeys and exchanging bodily fluids. L.W. might not have found sex icky as a child, but I guarantee everyone else here did, without being taught.

    Then puberty kicks in and the sexual urge overcomes the disgust reaction - but only towards those you find sexually attractive.

    Try this. Picture someone of the gender that you normally find sexually attractive, whichever that may be. Now picture them to be grossly obese, ugly-faced, ill-tempered. Now picture them naked on a bed. Is your gut instinct to join them or run?

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    Default

    Ask yourself whether you would inform a couple ( of any sexual orientation) that the thought of their being intimate disgusts you.

    Then ask yourself whether that would be right or wrong.

    Then ask why or why not.

    Kevin


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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    I wouldn't tell them that, but sex is not a spectator sport. It's a thought I'd sooner forget.

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    Ask yourself whether you would inform a couple ( of any sexual orientation) that the thought of their being intimate disgusts you.

    Then ask yourself whether that would be right or wrong.

    Then ask why or why not.

    Kevin


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

    "Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." - Will Rogers

    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - Groucho Marx

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the hatred of gays?

    While we're on the subject, I have a friend who years ago had two teenage sons.

    He told me in no uncertain terms that if a male teacher made a pass at either of them, he'd go after the guy. If a female teacher made a pass, he'd consider them lucky.

    I can agree with exactly half of that statement.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

    "Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." - Will Rogers

    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - Groucho Marx

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