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Thread: isn't it ironic

  1. #1
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    Default isn't it ironic

    that the ultimate impetus for the benefit of the environment with regards to conservation and to climate change is likely gonna be provided to us through the free markets

    globally we will see a push by the public to buy cars that get better fuel mileage

    we will see a push by utilities to get off natural gas and other fossil fuels and move to alternate greener methods of energy production because the greener methods will be cheaper

    we will see a greater adoption of the use of mass transit where possible because driving cars will be cost prohibitive in our inflationary economy

    the republicans were right, the free market was the only way in the end
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    .
    Too late.
    "I'll tell you why [religion's] not a scam. In my opinion, all right? Tide goes in, tide goes out. Never a miscommunication. You can't explain that."Bill O'Reilly

  3. #3
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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    probably
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    The Free Market doesn’t care if we devolve into collapse and balkanization. But it will provide what people can afford.

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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    Not really a free market though, is it

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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    Whenever these sorts of fuel crises come up it inevitibly turns out that the big players make huge profits. Massive.
    Until now theres not really been any viable alternatives, Mobil / Exon et al are watching their customers vote with their feet... maybe thats why the profiteering now.
    But its just on to new masters in utility companies and car manufacturers who are looking on the prospects of a world replacement vehicle fleet with glee. Replacing the fleet at speed creates an environmental impact far above the lamented state we already are in.
    And then the golden age of the free ride electric car will be gone soon as road taxes arrive , start small and escalate as goverments wonder how to maintain their roads with no gas levy and taxes.
    Interesting times.

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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    Quote Originally Posted by John B View Post
    Whenever these sorts of fuel crises come up it inevitibly turns out that the big players make huge profits. Massive.
    Until now theres not really been any viable alternatives, Mobil / Exon et al are watching their customers vote with their feet... maybe thats why the profiteering now.
    But its just on to new masters in utility companies and car manufacturers who are looking on the prospects of a world replacement vehicle fleet with glee. Replacing the fleet at speed creates an environmental impact far above the lamented state we already are in.
    And then the golden age of the free ride electric car will be gone soon as road taxes arrive , start small and escalate as goverments wonder how to maintain their roads with no gas levy and taxes.
    Interesting times.
    oh there will be taxes, only problem is that the revenue that is taxed will be insufficient to support an infrastructure built with and for fossil fuels.
    But that’s after we’re gone so no worries.

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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    that the ultimate impetus for the benefit of the environment with regards to conservation and to climate change is likely gonna be provided to us through the free markets

    globally we will see a push by the public to buy cars that get better fuel mileage

    we will see a push by utilities to get off natural gas and other fossil fuels and move to alternate greener methods of energy production because the greener methods will be cheaper

    we will see a greater adoption of the use of mass transit where possible because driving cars will be cost prohibitive in our inflationary economy

    the republicans were right, the free market was the only way in the end
    Dude, what are you smoking? A free market economy will never provide what is best, but only what is most profitable.

    Green energy is not cheaper, and the utilities will cling to fossil fuels for as long as they can. Why? because fossil fuels are e more profitable than green energy.

    Mass transit might work in the compact cityscape, but the freedom of private transport will continue undiminished in the hinterland, regardless of fuel prices.

    The Republicans were right. Free markets will make the stockholders rich and the global environment headed for the abyss.

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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    The free market was always destined to take over, but we need to use government to provide options earlier rather than later. The free market will always arrive a day late and a dollar over budget because development forces don't kick in until it's already shown to be viable. And there is no market more conservative or with more reluctance to change than the car industry.
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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    The free market was always destined to take over, but we need to use government to provide options earlier rather than later. The free market will always arrive a day late and a dollar over budget because development forces don't kick in until it's already shown to be viable. And there is no market more conservative or with more reluctance to change than the car industry.
    Reluctance to change is why legacy auto will be mostly bankrupt by the end of the decade. Some may survive. Most won't.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    Quote Originally Posted by bluedog225 View Post
    Not really a free market though, is it
    A true and pure 'free market' is a rare thing indeed, and totally unheard of on a large scale. What people mean by 'free market' is a Regulated Free Market. Not Socialism (the means of production owned publicly), or Soviet Communism (central planning + public ownership).
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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    Is Mr. Pless trolling again? If so - I'll bite

    Free market my patootie. The Reps have fought to keep/increase oil & gas subsidies & limit/end renewable ones. Greener tech is winning out in spite of what the Reps have done. Just think how much further along we'd be if all that energy & money had been put into green R&D.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Is Mr. Pless trolling again? If so - I'll bite

    Free market my patootie. The Reps have fought to keep/increase oil & gas subsidies & limit/end renewable ones. Greener tech is winning out in spite of what the Reps have done. Just think how much further along we'd be if all that energy & money had been put into green R&D.
    Yes, the modern R's love the 'brands' of capitalism like 'Crony Capitalism', 'Public losses/Private profits Capitalism', 'Regulatory Capture Capitalism', 'Revolving Door' Capitalism, etc.

    Perversions and distortions, that is, of well-regulated capitalism.
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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    Quote Originally Posted by bluedog225 View Post
    Not really a free market though, is it
    Bing, Bing, Bing.. We Have a Winner!

    this has got to be a PPT...

    Paul Pless Troll.

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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    Free market actions are a lag indicator though. Even if the market stumbled on the "right" solutions, they'd perforce arrive too late.

    Like Clausewitz' dictum that a general's typical mistake is to prepare for the last war.

    That said, I've no better solutions.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    "Free market" my a**...

    US government alone spends $20 billion every year on direct fossil fuel subsidies. Of that figure, around $16 billion goes towards oil and gas, while the remaining $4 billion benefits the coal industry.

    There is also data to suggest that the problem is getting worse rather than better. Between 2017 and 2019 production subsidies for fossil fuels grew by 28%.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Is Mr. Pless trolling again? If so - I'll bite

    Free market my patootie. The Reps have fought to keep/increase oil & gas subsidies & limit/end renewable ones. Greener tech is winning out in spite of what the Reps have done. Just think how much further along we'd be if all that energy & money had been put into green R&D.
    Still wouldn’t be enough to transition into the decline of crude oil. What we’re doing is the equivalent of starting to save for retirement at 60 yrs old. That inheritance of fossil wealth could have been used to build the foundation for a post oil infrastructure but instead we blew it out the tail pipe as though the supply will increase forever. And the extra income we had went out the door trying to maintain a world wide military capability to wage 2 1/2 wars. Pretty sure the 7trillion in the GWOT far exceeds the billions in ff subsidies.

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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...nergy-climate/

    Why an energy crisis and $5 gas aren’t spurring a green revolution
    As high prices move consumers to rethink their attachment to oil and gas, America is struggling to meet the moment

    By Evan Halper

    The United States is struggling to squeeze opportunity out of an energy crisis that should have been a catalyst for cleaner, domestically produced power. After decades of putting the climate on the back burner, the country is finding itself unprepared to seize the moment and at risk of emerging from the crisis even more reliant on fossil fuels.

    “The energy crisis exacerbated by the war in Ukraine has seen a perilous doubling down on fossil fuels by the major economies,” U.N. Secretary General António Guterres said at a conference in Vienna on Tuesday, according to prepared remarks. He warned governments and investors that a failure to immediately and more aggressively embrace clean energy could be disastrous for the planet.
    U.S. climate envoy John F. Kerry suggested that nations are falling prey to a flawed logic that fossil fuels will help them weather this period of instability, which has seen gas prices climb to a record-high national average of $5 per gallon. “You have this new revisionism suggesting that we have to be pumping oil like crazy, and we have to be moving into long-term [fossil fuel] infrastructure building,” he said at the Time100 Summit in New York this month. “We have to push back.”

  19. #19
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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    The free market was always destined to take over, but we need to use government to provide options earlier rather than later. The free market will always arrive a day late and a dollar over budget because development forces don't kick in until it's already shown to be viable. And there is no market more conservative or with more reluctance to change than the car industry.
    IMO, the housing industry and agriculture are a tad more resistant to change than the auto industry.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    I was expecting this thread to be about the 30th anniversary of Jagged Little Pill
    What color are their hands now?

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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    we will see a greater adoption of the use of mass transit where possible because driving cars will be cost prohibitive in our inflationary economy
    ... and residence in a city/metroplex with robust public transit will be an attractive option.
    What color are their hands now?

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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan McCosh View Post
    IMO, the housing industry and agriculture are a tad more resistant to change than the auto industry.
    .always appreciate your reality checks.

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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    that the ultimate impetus for the benefit of the environment with regards to conservation and to climate change is likely gonna be provided to us through the free markets
    Nope. Sanctions on Russia (and Iran, and Venezuela, and...) are the opposite of a free market.

    What we are seeing is some unintended effects of market-based mechanisms, implemented by governments through command-and-control.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Nope. Sanctions on Russia (and Iran, and Venezuela, and...) are the opposite of a free market.

    What we are seeing is some unintended effects of market-based mechanisms, implemented by governments through command-and-control.
    The insanity of US foreign and energy policy. Sanction oil exporters. Plead with oil exporters who buy our weapons. While doing everything possible to encourage oil consumption by keeping fuel costs as low as possible.

    Oh wait, $100,000 electric pickups are the solution.


  25. #25
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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    Isn't it ironic...

    that liberals sometimes lie, also? This seems to be an example --

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/liberals-...163317361.html
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  26. #26
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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Nope. Sanctions on Russia (and Iran, and Venezuela, and...) are the opposite of a free market.

    What we are seeing is some unintended effects of market-based mechanisms, implemented by governments through command-and-control.
    And OPEC isn't exactly free market either.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    And OPEC isn't exactly free market either.
    And the Seven Sisters before that.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_...oil_companies)

    Preceding the 1973 oil crisis, the Seven Sisters controlled around 85 per cent of the world's petroleum reserves.[6] In the 1970s, many countries with large reserves nationalized holdings of all major oil companies. Since then, industry dominance has shifted to the OPEC cartel and state-owned oil and gas companies in emerging-market economies, such as Saudi Aramco, Gazprom (Russia), China National Petroleum Corporation, National Iranian Oil Company, PDVSA (Venezuela), Petrobras (Brazil), and Petronas (Malaysia). In 2007, the Financial Times called these "the new Seven Sisters".[4][7] According to consulting firm PFC Energy, by 2012 only 7% of the world's known oil reserves were in countries that allowed private international companies free rein. Fully 65% were in the hands of state-owned companies.[8]

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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    [QUOTE=Garret;6678044]Is Mr. Pless trolling again? If so - I'll bite

    Free market my patootie. The Reps have fought to keep/increase oil & gas subsidies & limit/end renewable ones. Greener tech is winning out in spite of what the Reps have done. Just think how much further along we'd be if all that energy & money had been put into green R&D.[/QUOTE]

    I used to think that, but I look at NASA, billions of r&d dollars chucked at the SLS, Orion etc, and still hasn't got off the ground. Vs free market SpaceX who have done ten times as much with half the money, chasing profit at some point in the future. And a massive ego.
    The vision is as important as the money, maybe more so.

    Pete
    Last edited by epoxyboy; 06-15-2022 at 01:51 PM.
    The Ignore feature, lowering blood pressure since 1862. Ahhhhhhh.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    Yes, we can add 'Abuse of Monopolistic Structures Capitalism' to the sorts that today's R's like.
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    Three years ago, the utility I work for announced that we will be coal free by 2025.

    Natural gas will still play a role, especially for peaking.

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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    Quote Originally Posted by John B View Post
    Whenever these sorts of fuel crises come up it inevitibly turns out that the big players make huge profits. Massive.
    Until now theres not really been any viable alternatives, Mobil / Exon et al are watching their customers vote with their feet... maybe thats why the profiteering now.
    But its just on to new masters in utility companies and car manufacturers who are looking on the prospects of a world replacement vehicle fleet with glee. Replacing the fleet at speed creates an environmental impact far above the lamented state we already are in.
    And then the golden age of the free ride electric car will be gone soon as road taxes arrive , start small and escalate as goverments wonder how to maintain their roads with no gas levy and taxes.
    Interesting times.
    Lo , and what do I discover in my paper today..
    Screenshot_20220618-115548_Chrome.jpg

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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    ^ Since damage to the road surface is a function of the weight of the vehicle, why not levy road taxes based on manufacturers published kerb weights as well as propulsion method? An example would be

    Tax = weight x factor + fuel factor x published emissions (g CO2 / mile)

    Where the fuel factor is say 0 for pure electric (battery of hudrogen fuell cell), 1 for hybrids, 2 for petrol and 3 for diesel. The weight factor could itself be a function of weight increasing with increasing weight.

    Nick

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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    There can be no free market without the right of property.
    I'm not leaving.

    -- Mike Pence

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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    that the ultimate impetus for the benefit of the environment with regards to conservation . . .
    Conservation for what purpose? Maximizing the resources available for human consumption? Or because it's the right thing to do? Private property, carefully designed, might do that. The free market, never. The premise would be that some things are forbidden to be marketed, such as sex with children. There is no market of any kind.
    I'm not leaving.

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    Default Re: isn't it ironic

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    that the ultimate impetus for the benefit of the environment with regards to conservation and to climate change is likely gonna be provided to us through the free markets

    globally we will see a push by the public to buy cars that get better fuel mileage

    we will see a push by utilities to get off natural gas and other fossil fuels and move to alternate greener methods of energy production because the greener methods will be cheaper

    we will see a greater adoption of the use of mass transit where possible because driving cars will be cost prohibitive in our inflationary economy

    the republicans were right, the free market was the only way in the end
    Oh look, the same set of shortge and government debt features which triggered the Vienna Opec meeting of August 1973 - anyone else remember the subsequent headlong rush to Mass Transit and the dramatic shift to lighter more fuel efficient vee-hickles?

    It did get us the intersting stratified charge honda.

    We will see little but the ever declining status of the west and the continuous devaluation of our currencies - same $hit over a different beat.
    Last edited by P.I. Stazzer-Newt; 06-19-2022 at 02:31 AM.
    I'd much rather lay in my bunk all freakin day lookin at Youtube videos .

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