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Thread: Do you know the correct answer?

  1. #526
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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    As I did in post #24. Now, can you explain why one is right and one is wrong instead of just stating which you believe?
    The table in post 24 is comically wrong, as has been pointed out multiple times in this thread. One only has to look at the first two columns to see that the number of times (rows) the contestants chooses the car is double what it should be. Yet they are treated as equal odds. Contestant chooses 1, car is behind 1 has two rows, car is behind 2 and behind 3 each have one row, same for the car being behind 2 and behind 3. Yet they are summed at the end as if that is all fine and dandy, its twice as likely the contestant chooses the car as it should be.

  2. #527
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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    Ok, one last attempt for the few malcontents who refuse to accept reality. We will consider 2 different card games, the first is not the same as the Monti-hall problem, the second is equivilent, and the difference should make the answer obvious to all.

    Lets find the Ace of Spades, Version 1:

    The host takes a deck of cards and shuffles. The contestant picks a card at random and leaves it face down. The Host takes a card at random and leaves it face down. Both cards have a 1/52 chance of winning. The remaining 50 cards are turned up and examined. Most times, of course, the ace of spades is in the remaining 50 cards, but you do it often enough and it won't be finally. In this case, it makes no difference if the contestant switches with the host or not. The odds are 50-50.

    Lets Find the Ace of Spaces, Version 2.
    The host takes a deck of cards and shuffles. The contestant picks a card at random and leaves it face down. The host then takes the remaining 51 cards, goes through them and find s the ace of spades and places it face down between him and the contestant (this is equivalent to Monti opening a goat every time, as Monti's rule is the same as "he must leave the car hidden"). He then hands the 50 cards to the player to verify there is no ace of spades in it and the contestant has a choice to switch. Of course he should switch, as there is a 51/52 chance the card the host turned face down is the ace of spades and only a 1/52 chance his card is the ace of spades.

    The latter game is equivalent the the problem at hand, the former game yields the result the few obstinate folks want to believe is correct.

  3. #528
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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Choosing the door that Monty didn't open is identical to having chosen both the doors you didn't choose. You win if either one has the car, regardless of the fact that Monty shows you the one that doesn't. That's 66% odds.
    That (speaking as an AI, which you have not, so far, adequatedly disproved) is cracking.

    Andy
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  4. #529
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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    This is how the carnies at the county fair make a living.

  5. #530
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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    Quote Originally Posted by birlinn View Post
    Once the goat is revealed, there are now two doors; one will have a goat, one a car.
    If you choose a door, there is a 50% chance it will have a car.
    If you switch to the other door, there is a 50% chance it will have a car.
    No gain in switching.
    Not so.

    We start with a bag of 3 seemingly identical objects, one of which is a valuable prize.

    The probability of that bag containing the prize is 100%. The probability of any particular object in that bag, chosen at random is 33-1/3% (1/3).

    The contestant selects an object from the back, at random. That object has a 33-1/3% probability of being the prize object.

    Each of the remaining two objects in the bag have the same 33-1/3% probability of being the prize object, giving the bag a cumulative probability of 2/3 (66-2/3%).

    Our preceptor, Monty Hall, knowing in advance, which object is the prize object and which objects are not, then draws a non-prize object from the bag and opens it, thus reducing the probability that that object was the prize to zero/zip/nada.

    The bag, however, still has a 2/3 (66-2/3%) probability of containing the prize object. The 1/3 (33-1/3%) probability didn't just evaporate, it stayed with the bag, thus increasing the probability that the remaining object is the prize to 2/3 (66-2/3%).

    This is Bayesian statistics at play. When the first object was selected by the contestant, it was even odds as to which object was the prize (we had no information).

    Once Monty Hall reveals the non-prize object, we have introduced new information, and that changes the odds.

    This is Bayesian statistics and inference at play:

    Bayesian statistics is a system for describing epistemological uncertainty using the mathematical language of probability.
    In the 'Bayesian paradigm,' degrees of belief in states of nature are specified; these are non-negative, and the total belief in all
    states of nature is fixed to be one. Bayesian statistical methods start with existing 'prior' beliefs, and update these using data
    to give 'posterior' beliefs, which may be used as the basis for inferential decisions.


    http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Bayesian_statistics

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_inference
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  6. #531
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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    OK... you've lost me. I do not understand this at all. Could you restate the above in a different way that I might be able to understand?
    My brain is a bit fried. I've been working all day. However, your way of counting only combines realizations when the player selects the right door at the beginning. In effect, your count cheats the player by saying "It doesn't matter." However, it means that the option to stay with the first choice is undercounted in the win columns.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

    "Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." - Will Rogers

    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - Groucho Marx

  7. #532
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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    .
    Let me ask you a question. Say the contestant chooses one door. Monty Hall keeps the other two doors. Monty Hall looks to see what are behind his two doors and opens a door containing a Goat and discards it. Say that no switch is offered. The remaining two doors are opened simultaneously. What is the probability that the Contestant has the car? What is the probability Monty Hall has the car? Are you under the impression they both have a 50% probability of having the Car?
    Interesting. I'll need to think about that.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

    "Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." - Will Rogers

    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - Groucho Marx

  8. #533
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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Choosing the door that Monty didn't open is identical to having chosen both the doors you didn't choose. You win if either one has the car, regardless of the fact that Monty shows you the one that doesn't. That's 66% odds.
    Interesting way to think about it. I'm too tired to think clearly.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

    "Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." - Will Rogers

    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - Groucho Marx

  9. #534
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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    Mythbusters episode 177
    Switching won

  10. #535
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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    My brain is a bit fried. I've been working all day. However, your way of counting only combines realizations when the player selects the right door at the beginning. In effect, your count cheats the player by saying "It doesn't matter." However, it means that the option to stay with the first choice is undercounted in the win columns.
    See post 553

  11. #536
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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter
    the stunning thing is that this problem has been definitively solved. not here, out there. before this thread.
    Um... yeah.

    What's your point?
    "I'll tell you why [religion's] not a scam. In my opinion, all right? Tide goes in, tide goes out. Never a miscommunication. You can't explain that."Bill O'Reilly

  12. #537
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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    See post 553
    I saw it. Other than a bit of attitude that I doubt you can back up, it didn't add anything.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

    "Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." - Will Rogers

    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - Groucho Marx

  13. #538
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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    In a moment of clarity, I realised the key to working out the odds is that if you switch, you will always reverse your original choice.

    From there - original choice has 1:3 chance of being right, so switching has a 2:3 chance.

    Simples
    'When I leave I don't know what I'm hoping to find. When I leave I don't know what I'm leaving behind...'

  14. #539
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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    ^^^^^^ this for me at #470 early this AM.
    R
    Sleep with one eye open.

  15. #540
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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    You don't understand that you overcount correctly questing where the car is? You have to be trolling if that is the case.

  16. #541
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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    The idea that a 1 in 3 possibility of winning magically becomes 1 in 2 just because someone shows you one of the wrong answers is interesting concept.

  17. #542
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    The idea that a 1 in 3 possibility of winning magically becomes 1 in 2 just because someone shows you one of the wrong answers is interesting concept.


    That predilection is the basis for Three Card Monte, shell games, and more.

    Kevin


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  18. #543
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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    Now, show me where the following (numbered) logical flow is in error:
    No. All you are doing is repeating what others have said and adding no understanding.

    Find another monkey to dance for you.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

    "Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." - Will Rogers

    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - Groucho Marx

  19. #544
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    That predilection is the basis for Three Card Monte, shell games, and more.

    Kevin


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    I have often said that one shouldn't be allowed to graduate from high school without a solid grounding in probability and statistics.

    More important than trig. More important calculus (even though you need calculus for more advance P+S)

    One uses P+S every day of their life, knowingly or unknowingly -- is it safe to cross the street? Political polls, is buying a lottery ticket a good investment?

    There are all sorts of things you don't consider as being probabilistic in nature.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  20. #545
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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    I had this on a t-shirt when I was in high school.

    Didn’t turn out to be the chick-magnet that I thought it would.

  21. #546
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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Okay, Nick, I'll see if this old dog can learn a new trick:

    Contestant Picks this Door Prize is Behind This Door Monty Shows This Door Stays Switches
    1 1 2 Win Lose
    1 1 3 Win Lose
    1 2 3 Lose Win
    1 3 2 Lose Win
    2 1 3 Lose Win
    2 2 1 Win Lose
    2 2 3 Win Lose
    2 3 1 Lose Win
    3 1 2 Lose Win
    3 2 1 Lose Win
    3 3 1 Win Lose
    3 3 2 Win Lose
    Win % 0.5 0.5

    Okay, Tom, I told you what I thought was wrong with your chart. Now I'd like you to tell me what is wrong with mine.

    Edit - Sorry. I had a typo that I corrected.

    I think the issue here is that the table treats each goat uniquely.

    We’ll call them Lee and Paul.

    So when the contestant chooses the correct door, you handled the outcomes of exposing Lee and exposing Paul as unique events with their own probability.

    But the game deals in combinations, not permutations, so in goat form, Lee and Paul are indiscernible, and the exposing of either can be considered a singular event.

    This would eliminate three rows from your table, all of which favored keeping your original choice.

  22. #547
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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    I was responding to a request by you...to me.

    You asked me to comment on your table.

    I responded.

    And then I had a request for you.

    Why not respond in kind?
    I have responded to that problem already.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

    "Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." - Will Rogers

    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - Groucho Marx

  23. #548
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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowolf View Post
    I think the issue here is that the table treats each goat uniquely.

    We’ll call them Lee and Paul.

    So when the contestant chooses the correct door, you handled the outcomes of exposing Lee and exposing Paul as unique events with their own probability.

    But the game deals in combinations, not permutations, so in goat form, Lee and Paul are indiscernible, and the exposing of either can be considered a singular event.

    This would eliminate three rows from your table, all of which favored keeping your original choice.
    I think I know the rows you want to remove so that it looks like the earlier table, but the point is there really are two goats behind two doors.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

    "Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." - Will Rogers

    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - Groucho Marx

  24. #549
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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    Everyone is just repeating the same arguments and that includes me.

    Until someone has a new idea, how about we let this go? Otherwise, we can just number the ideas we have (I think there are two and all the rest are just rephrasings of those two) and throw those numbers instead of doing all this typing.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

    "Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." - Will Rogers

    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - Groucho Marx

  25. #550
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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    meh-eh-eh-eh

    put a simpler way: there are repeat numbers in the "prize behind this door" column, giving the contestant an extra win staying with each door, and an extra loss switching.

  26. #551
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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Everyone is just repeating the same arguments and that includes me.

    Until someone has a new idea, how about we let this go? Otherwise, we can just number the ideas we have (I think there are two and all the rest are just rephrasings of those two) and throw those numbers instead of doing all this typing.
    What numbers? 1 for switch and 2 in 3 odds and 2 for stay and 1 in 3 odds and 3 for 50/50 odds?
    Last edited by Jimmy W; 06-14-2022 at 12:05 AM.

  27. #552
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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    I think I know the rows you want to remove so that it looks like the earlier table, but the point is there really are two goats behind two doors.
    Yes, but key in this instance is that 2 times out of three when a goat is removed from play by opening a door, the other door is the car. One time out of three the other door is also a goat.

    The initial choice by the contestant is meaningless other than triggering the host. It’s truely random. The host has the only real choice, but is stymied two times out of three into revealing the car by the rules of the game (he must open a door and it must be a goat). The contestant then must always choose to switch to benefit. He will only lose when the host has two goats behind two doors, which will only happen 1/3 of the time with a random shuffle.

    If he doesn’t switch, he will win only 1/3 of the time because 2/3 of the time the host has one goat behind his two doors, and the car. And he must reveal the goat, and so points a finger at the car. 1/3 of the time he lies and point a finger at a goat because he has two.

    Scotch and a good sleep worked for me
    Last edited by Decourcy; 06-14-2022 at 12:13 AM.

  28. #553
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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    To me, it makes more sense to think in terms of a game like chess. The first move isn’t designed to win, but to provoke a move that puts the pieces where you want them.

  29. #554
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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    Is it Schrodinger's car?

    permustation.jpg
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  30. #555
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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    OK, here's a slightly more detailed version of how I grasped it.

    There are two parts to the game, the initial choice and then the decision to swap or not. The crucial bit is what happens in between.

    Lets play this out:

    You make your first choice, get lucky and pick the car. You don't know it, but Monty knows it and shows you how lucky you were not to choose another door, one that he then demonstrates has a goat behind it. If you swap, you swap the car for the other goat.

    Alternatively:

    You make your first choice, and unfortunately pick one of the goats. You don't know it, but Monty knows it and shows you how lucky you were not to choose another door, one that he then demonstrates has the other goat behind it. If you swap, you swap your goat for the car.

    I.E.

    If you stick with your first choice then you are choosing between 1 car and 2 goats, and so have a 1 in 3 chance of picking the car.

    If you swap your first choice then you have a 2 in 3 chance of choosing a goat and then swapping it for a car.
    'When I leave I don't know what I'm hoping to find. When I leave I don't know what I'm leaving behind...'

  31. #556
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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot
    no, let's not expose lee and paul in goat form.
    lol!!
    "I'll tell you why [religion's] not a scam. In my opinion, all right? Tide goes in, tide goes out. Never a miscommunication. You can't explain that."Bill O'Reilly

  32. #557
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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    .
    I think last evening you were all being too hard on CWSmith. He told everyone upfront he had a long hard day at work and that his brain was fried. It was not a good time to pressure him.
    "I'll tell you why [religion's] not a scam. In my opinion, all right? Tide goes in, tide goes out. Never a miscommunication. You can't explain that."Bill O'Reilly

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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Is it Schrodinger's car?
    No…. That would be my ‘84 Chrysler Laser traveling downhill which appeared to be both running and not running at the same time.

  34. #559
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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    Is Nick finally onboard or has he just given up? Don't see anything recently form him.

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    Default Re: Do you know the correct answer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Is Nick finally onboard or has he just given up? Don't see anything recently form him.
    That is because.
    • There is really nothing to add to the "whiteboard" post
    • I have been away from the 'puter between that post and now.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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