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Thread: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

  1. #71
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    Indeed, I agree soft. However I'm following what it said on Mr. Gartside's plans and what's more, it's FREE! yay! I don't have any free fir, maybe some free locust and mahogany, but both would be weighty comparatively.

    The boards where laid out any which way for that picture. I will probably be oiling them maybe and likely taking a little time to orientate them pleasingly, colour-wise as per your suggestion.
    6 of the boards are quite light coloured (with a bit of striping) whilst 2 are the classic very dark brown. Probably gave those kind of centered (4 a side though) as stripes
    Last edited by Toxophilite; 06-08-2022 at 02:28 AM.

  2. #72
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    I used clear WRC for the sole on my Somes Sound. True the wood is soft, but just how hard does a sole need to be? Mine is holding up nicely since I launched in 2015. The boat gets regular use during the summer and lives on a trailer during the winter. I wanted a lightweight wood and got that in the cedar. I used Seafin oil on mine so the finish is easy to refresh as the spirit moves me. I figured that anything that looks really nice, like a varnished sole, I'd be worried about stepping on. And that idea is ridiculous.

    Jeff

  3. #73
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    Just chiming in to say thanks for all the photos and particularly the information about the use of cedar for the sole. I'm planning to use it for the boat I'm currently building (it is also recommended by the designer on the basis of weight) and was concerned about this issue. It's been an illuminating discussion.

    - James

  4. #74
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    Quote Originally Posted by jpatrick View Post
    I used clear WRC for the sole on my Somes Sound. True the wood is soft, but just how hard does a sole need to be? Mine is holding up nicely since I launched in 2015. The boat gets regular use during the summer and lives on a trailer during the winter. I wanted a lightweight wood and got that in the cedar. I used Seafin oil on mine so the finish is easy to refresh as the spirit moves me. I figured that anything that looks really nice, like a varnished sole, I'd be worried about stepping on. And that idea is ridiculous.

    Jeff
    Thanks for that. Did you use the ship and shore sealer or the teak oil for your sole? I was going to use dalys too.

  5. #75
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    Quote Originally Posted by Toxophilite View Post
    Thanks for that. Did you use the ship and shore sealer or the teak oil for your sole? I was going to use dalys too.
    I think it was the teak oil. At least the cover label says something about teak. It's simple stuff that offers some protection.

    Jeff

  6. #76
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    Thanks,I like simple
    Another general question regarding cedar soles. Should I use screws or nails to fasten the boards to the strapping underneath? I would use bronze or copper but i'm curious if people have a preference.

  7. #77
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    Like most boat things, it depends..........................
    My Gannet has a curved sole which is lowest midpoint and bends upward at bow & stern. So I use silicon bronze screws to bend the sole timber down to the floors - screws go through the sole into the floors. Not my best piece of boat building but it seems to work so far.
    My Snapper boat has flat sole all the way from forward bulkhead to aft bulkhead. So it uses spotted gum planks screwed to cleats which hold the sole planks together - cleats are fairly tight against the floors so the sole doesn't shift. Again it seems to work so far.

    Good luck Neil

  8. #78
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    Looking at bronze screws #6 1/2" .36$ each! Oh well I only need 50 or 60

    Set up a tarp tent for painting. Got the floorboard shapes mapped out. Boards sat in the sun for an hour with the tick stick templates on them and got a humourous suntan. On a similar note it looks like the paint for the old name and location left it's mark on the transom.
    Is oxalic acid the thing to use to get rid of the grey weathering or is this a sand it out situation? Or do I just live with it?

    And what do I have to do if I want to the boats name?
    Bernard Cornwell would have me finding a virgin to pee in the Bilges..I can see that being complicated...

    The old name 'Pelagia' is the name of a a couple christian saints , one who, depending on the myth you read, was either a dancer, an actress, or a lady of the evening , or all three, who saw the light, changed her ways and then died of her harsh pure lifestyle. The other leapt to her death rather than offer some good old pagan sacrifice. Patron saint of actresses?
    It's also a fishing village /tourist destination in Greece.

    Not really my style, nor is the Greek taverna lettering. I was going to name her 'Lyre' as I'm a musician and it's pronounced 'Liar' which is kind of roguish.


    Last edited by Toxophilite; 06-08-2022 at 11:53 PM.

  9. #79
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    Bronze screws are durable but in the small sizes (No.6's) they are not very strong, even when new. After a few years inevitable deterioration, getting them out can leave stripped heads. For this reason, some people use stainless. You shouldn't bury stainless, but they seem to hold up fine and have (double) the metal strength of a bronze screw for when they might need to come out. Might nor suit the aesthetic though. No.8 screws are of an order bigger/ more meaty if you think you can use them. If you go with the bronze No.6's I'd be super carefull installing them so there's no head damage and bed them in something like lanolin to help them come back out. Given they are floorboard fixings, they are going to need to come off again one day.

    I'm pleased she didn't leak. Given she'd been left out of the water for 2-3 years maybe, it shows traditional lapstrake can work fine as a trailer boat. Does it appear the builder put anything in the laps (some people sikaflex) or do they look bare wood? Interesting to know. What was she planked with?

    Lovely boat. I made the mast of my Shearwater 'a reef worths' taller to get more sail area and a little added luff length as it was a bit conservative. Also the mast tip to stem line then clears the yard end, so it can be optionally stayed with forestay and shrouds for better performance.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 06-09-2022 at 03:54 AM.

  10. #80
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    how thick is the transom.?..sand it s'more
    get the wood OFF with a soft pad disc sander, not just a DA. fair it with the plank ends, not to them.
    Epoxy the sole boards to the cleats ,no fastenings...a few bigger 316 ss screws ,not hardware store 304 crap,to hold the whole lot to the floors.
    407 or 410 with WEST in the screw holes..use "too much" of the powder and DO NOT pre coat the holes, and you will have a putty that can be popped out without ripping the plank apart someday.

    folks are complimenting on her condition for a 20yo boat...she looks to me like a well used 40yo boat.if she had been epoxy primed..(not epoxy resin but epoxy "barrier coat"like interlux 2000), and not painted black....she would still look new.

  11. #81
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    Yes very refreshing to see the mini car towing..I used to get the weirdest looks towing my wee speedboat only a few miles to the ramp with a beetle. I towed a Lightning across country with it! ...with a diesel engine where the passenger seat goes!

  12. #82
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    In the February 2022 issue of Small Boats Monthly magazine there is an article called Removable Floorboards by Eric Hvalsoe.
    It would be very beneficial for you to read this article as it gives some great pointers toward the task that you are about to undertake.
    Here is the link, it is a paid site so may not work unless you are a member.
    https://smallboatsmonthly.com/articl...e-floorboards/
    Focus on the effort not the outcome.

  13. #83
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    Quote Originally Posted by pcford View Post
    yes. good stuff.
    that stuff in the tube? takes forever to dry...gums up sandpaper...is designed for the thinnest of application.
    "vynlester" is just a glorified polyester... would you put bondo on the boat?

  14. #84
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    how thick is the transom.?..sand it s'more
    get the wood OFF with a soft pad disc sander, not just a DA. fair it with the plank ends, not to them.
    Epoxy the sole boards to the cleats ,no fastenings...a few bigger 316 ss screws ,not hardware store 304 crap,to hold the whole lot to the floors.
    407 or 410 with WEST in the screw holes..use "too much" of the powder and DO NOT pre coat the holes, and you will have a putty that can be popped out without ripping the plank apart someday.

    folks are complimenting on her condition for a 20yo boat...she looks to me like a well used 40yo boat.if she had been epoxy primed..(not epoxy resin but epoxy "barrier coat"like interlux 2000), and not painted black....she would still look new.

    I actually have confirmation as to her exact age from the people that worked at the boat building school where this very boat was built. 2001-2002. So 20 years is right. And though she wasn't very used she sat upside down on a dock, in the weather under a canvass cover for a LOT of that time. I also have confirmation of this from the grandson of the previous owner and people who live in the immediate neighbourhood where she was stored and infrequently sailed.

    I'm sorry you think she looks so beat and worn.

    Sadly my powers don't extend to changing things that could've or should've been done prior to my ownership..probably for the best, for the bigger picture, and the rest of humanity.

    The transom is quite thick and could certainly stand up to more sanding. I have a buffer with a 7" soft sanding pad of the type you favour I believe. I had been using a palm sander though and taking it easy initially. I had thought of gluing the floorboards to the strapping, it makes a certain amount of sense, however in this design the strapping slips under the center plank and then toggles on the margins hold the floorboards down. There aren't really any 'floors' in this boat.

    Paul Gartside isn't fan of dark paint on wooden boats, even here in rainy Vancouver BC due to it's heat attracting qualities, sounds like you aren't either.

    Thanks for the tips on the epoxy filler I was wondering about the pre wetting out business. I thought it would make it too permanent myself.

    Won't barrier coat basically just encapsulate the boat on the outside? Isn't that what I want to avoid? Certainly it's uber durable and would help with wear on the cedar but won't it then be necessary to do the inside as well? and then won't I basically have a cedar cored epoxy boat?
    Excuse me if I'm wrong but that's just what my research indicates.

    Paul Gartside uses the 3m acryl whirtegalzing putty on his builds and it's what he recommended to me but as it's not available here he also said he had no problem using epoxy thickened with 410 or something similarly lightweight . I bought 407 as the 410 uses thermoplastic and it's not recommended under dark paints.

    I will check out the small boat magazine article on floorboards
    Last edited by Toxophilite; 06-09-2022 at 11:21 AM.

  15. #85
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    Can you get some copper rivets and roves?

    floorboards2.jpg

    floorboards1.jpg

  16. #86
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    I don't consider a coating of Interlux 2000 on the outside only to be encapsulation. Just a superior undercoat.

  17. #87
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    Does it allow the wood to swell and shrink naturally? I don't actually know myself. Opinion seems to be divided.
    Do you have a traditional construction wooden boat that you've used it on? I know a lot of your cool boats are strip planked, which it would certainly make perfect sense on. I'm just asking.

    Copper rivets and roves while certainly very cool looking and functional, are maybe a little much work for me, for my floorboards. Those are some fine looking floorboards though.

  18. #88
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    I slatherated the daylights on the outside of this one, but honestly can't remember if she was ply maybe?

    What is the bad thing that might happen? A few cracks on seams is about it, and that is not really bad. Do you think she'll rot out or have plank distortion?
    I'm not trying to twist your arm. How would you feel about putting red lead on as a bottom undercoat?
    bruce

  19. #89
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    My concern is twofold; moisture being absorbed by the inside and getting trapped between the outer layer and the wood, possibly promoting rot. Also the two sides expanding and contracting at different rates causing separation of the coating and or cracking etc.

    Currently this boat seems pretty tight. Epoxy coating a traditionally built wooden boat, in my limited understanding and experience, has always been as a last effort to gain a few more years of existence out of a vessel that was otherwise in need of very serious and expensive work.

    Am I wrong ? (And you can't twist my arm, it's okay, I am seeking knowledge and advice after all.)

    Red Lead wasn't a consideration.

    However I did find a wooden boat restoration site that says they use interlux 2000 as primer on carvel hulls, but this petit product on lapstrake hulls
    https://www.jamestowndistributors.co...ct-detail/4287

    The #130 was designed by Paul Gartside as a lesson in traditional clinker construction particularly for the Silva Bay Boat school. Thus in their initial build the use of epoxy or uber modern coatings probably wouldn't have been considered or accounted for.
    Last edited by Toxophilite; 06-09-2022 at 01:46 PM.

  20. #90
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    No to epoxy. There is a guy who hangs around here that coats _everything_ in splooge. Not necessary.

  21. #91
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    We were just discussing. I will be using a more conventional primer when, and if I remove all the unnecessary bottom paint.

  22. #92
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    that stuff in the tube? takes forever to dry...gums up sandpaper...is designed for the thinnest of application.
    "vynlester" is just a glorified polyester... would you put bondo on the boat?
    The stuff in the tube is called acryl presumably because it is based on acrylic chemistry and were it vinylester based,I would expect it to be called vinyl..something or other.Acrylic based formulations can be very useful,for instance dentists use adhesives from within the family for repair work and tens of thousands of production boats are held together with it.I have use a variant of the 3M product for filling shallow scratches left by an excessively coarse choice of sandpaper and it did a fine job.For screw holes I fear it would have to much mass in the depression and would take days and days to cure through.Over here I'd use something like this: https://www.rustins.ltd/brummer/our-...or-wood-filler

  23. #93
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    99% of the fasteners on my boat are copper rivets and roves to the frames and small nails on the laps , so most of the fasteners are only about 1/16" deep in the 3/8" cedar planks so I think that's why the designer recommended the 3M product(which isn't available in Canada though I could buy it off of Amazon for more than twice the normal price.)
    There are some deeper holes near the keel and some screws at the plank hood ends which I will probably be using cedar plugs for but that's only about 2 dozen of approx 240 holes to fill.

    As the designer suggested epoxy with low density filler as a good alternative that he would be willing to use I will likely do that and go heavy on the filler to make it softer for sanding, maybe skip the wet out step but ensure the surfaces are very very clean. I have epoxy and filler already so no need for further purchases......also wait for the %%@#%# rain to stop though the makeshift boat tent is holding up well so far.
    Now to hunt down some paint.
    I know of , have used and like brightsides. I've used it on my shellback (top and bottom) and several glass boats. Are there any commercial 'house' paints or alkyd paints that do a good job as well that don't cost a zillion $$

  24. #94
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    Fasteners holes 99% filled. Thanks for all the help and patience with my dithering.
    Glad to get that done
    Some of the deeper ones are plugged with cedar bungs with the grain aligned appropriately.
    Onward
    Last edited by Toxophilite; 06-10-2022 at 09:07 PM.

  25. #95
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    The stuff in the tube is called acryl presumably because it is based on acrylic chemistry and were it vinylester based,I would expect it to be called vinyl..something or other.Acrylic based formulations can be very useful,for instance dentists use adhesives from within the family for repair work and tens of thousands of production boats are held together with it.I have use a variant of the 3M product for filling shallow scratches left by an excessively coarse choice of sandpaper and it did a fine job.For screw holes I fear it would have to much mass in the depression and would take days and days to cure through.Over here I'd use something like this: https://www.rustins.ltd/brummer/our-...or-wood-filler
    i know, wuz tawkin about two diff products mentioned earlier

  26. #96
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    I picked up some Total Boat paints from Jamestown Dist. to try to repaint my Shearwater and Mirror, but, like you, I'm still waiting for the rain to quit so I can't give you any opinions on it yet. But the price was good and, in the US, anyway, shipping is free.

  27. #97
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    Decided to go whole hog and scrape all the unnecessary bottom paint off. So I picked up some red and blk brightsides and a quart of the primer too. Hopefully I can sell my gallon of Micron to cover the cost.

    First I sanded down my fastener fills. I wasn't sure then if I'd redo the bottom so I just cleaned out the holes really well and filled them with the bottom paint left around them. This worked well afterwards as I was able to sand them flush without dishing the cedar around them. I just sanded till I saw the bottom paint almost sanded away and then stopped. Then I went at the bottom with a scraper, only did a couple of mild evil gouges....
    It took about 3 hours to get one side mostly done.

    Still I'm glad I did. The thought of having all that unnecessary powdery biocide on my boat was irksome and hopefully the brightsides will provide a little more protection for the soft cedar.
    More sanding and scraping of the other side and then a little bit of fairing and finish sanding

    I'm thinking I might leave the remnants of the old white primer/undercoat on where it's adhering well (which is most places) and prime on top of it then topcoat.

    Not knowing what was used on the topsides makes me wonder if i should prime the topsides before topcoating them too. the topside paint seems to be largely in good condition except for a few spots, It will be well sanded to provide adhesion and knock the gloss off.


  28. #98
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    I'd take a pass on adding primer to your restoration project. If the wood's sound it'll take paint nicely; primer's mostly unnecessary for a durable finish if your expectation's not for a furniture-perfect appearance once you're done.

    Looks like a fun boat getting a careful renewal in capable hands. Be watching for more pics once she's back in her native environment!
    When the people wanted the Constitution amended, it was amended. When the elites wanted the Constitution amended, but the people did not, that is called democracy."

    Thomas Sowell, JWR August 3, 2022

  29. #99
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    But But...what if I already have the primer? Heck!

    Bottom paint is about 98% scraped off. Now some last little bits , a bit more filling/fairing(scraping pulls some hidden loose fastener plugs) then some sanding. probably only primer on the bottom. then top coat top and bottom. Then clearcoat transom.

    The fun of having two boats is that you can work on one, and sail the other the same day.



  30. #100
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    Has the anti fouling been easier or safer,(for the cedar) to remove from where the white primer was ? I think the answer is yes.
    Have you figgured out what the white primer is ?
    I suppose it 's just an alkyd primer(kilz, easyprime,precote),not an epoxy( interlux2000,petit protect)
    Have you any inclination to remove, at least temporarily, the oak thingies from the bottom?
    bruce

  31. #101
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Has the anti fouling been easier or safer,(for the cedar) to remove from where the white primer was ? I think the answer is yes.
    Have you figgured out what the white primer is ?
    I suppose it 's just an alkyd primer(kilz, easyprime,precote),not an epoxy( interlux2000,petit protect)
    Have you any inclination to remove, at least temporarily, the oak thingies from the bottom?
    bruce

    Director of school where the boat was built 20 (not 40) years ago said that brightsides and interlux in general were the paints they were likely using as that's what the local store carried.

  32. #102
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    Good paints, though Fine Paints is better and easier to handle.
    Last edited by pcford; 06-13-2022 at 01:22 PM.

  33. #103
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    Well after about 2 dozen hours of scraping sanding, scraping, sanding, filling, sanding scraping, filling, sanding etc. all by hand I managed to get the bottom of the hull to a point where I felt I could prime. It was beginning to feel like the 13th task of hercules trying to remove every shred of old bottom paint and I think I got 99.9%of it. In the end I was aiming for adequate and thorough rather than perfect. Holes are filled, some scrapes and dings filled (but not all i missed some)

    Really I think I could have just not bothered and gone sailing but I was going to go to some nice lakes and rivers as well as the ocean and as it was going to be a trailer sailor in the water no more than 2-3 days tops, the thought of the unnecessary poison on the hull kind of bothered me. Besides it's messy.

    At this point I only primed the bottom. The topside paint has been given a good sand and I don't think it really needs priming. I might add a hint of the black to the red I have for the bottom to take some of the edge off and make it look more bottom paint-like. here it is part way through the sanding filling scraping and the with a coat of primer on. i'm going to sand and do the second coat recommended and then start with the topcoats, top and bottom.

    On a kind of humourous note, as the boat only has 2 cleats one on either side amidships, I was going to make 4 more out of some dense locust I have, so I took one off to use it as a rough pattern(I had planned to make it a 1/4" lower profile). It wasn't exactly what you would call symmetrical... I might 'fix' them and or replace them too.


    Last edited by Toxophilite; 06-17-2022 at 09:26 PM.

  34. #104
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    I think I made a few hundred wee triangles of masking tape, everyone different, to mask the waterline on my lapstrake boat.

  35. #105
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    Default Re: A Gartside # 130 followed me home

    This guys method is pretty cool
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYl3YJOMjNw

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