Poofed

[David G]

Ted, suspicions based on anecdotal evidence are fine… but PROOF only comes from double-blind, placebo-controlled studies. Anecdotes are not evidence.

Yes, another example of subscribing to the notion that "My half-baked, YouTube-driven, ignorance should be given all the credence of the best science, and those who have seriously studied the issue".

[Jimmy W]

Authorities have identified the gunman as 18-year-old Salvador Ramos, a high school dropout from Uvalde with reportedly no criminal history. However, authorities say they are investigating if he has a juvenile record. He reportedly had no mental health history.

https://www.kens5.com/article/news/s...5-c6880f43e43b

[Ted Hoppe]

Authorities have identified the gunman as 18-year-old Salvador Ramos, a high school dropout from Uvalde with reportedly no criminal history. However, authorities say they are investigating if he has a juvenile record. He reportedly had no mental health history.

https://www.kens5.com/article/news/s...5-c6880f43e43b

That does not mean the 18 year old shooter was not on antidepressants or other medications prior or at the time he took on this attack. a full autopsy report may show something different. Moreover it is very common for young male adults to have a psychotic break in conjunction with increased self medication or use of stimulants such as aderall and/or methylphenidate which are traded easily and available via Craig's list or social media sites. Of course this is personal speculation and based on personal anecdotal evidence and experience with kids of this generation.

[Decourcy]

From what I read, he certainly had anger and reality issues.

[johnw]

Maybe but there is this too.

Attachment 111896

So, how many mass-casualty shooting have occurred in Iceland?

[Ted Hoppe]

So, how many mass-casualty shooting have occurred in Iceland?

Seattle has twice as many people as the total in Iceland if you are looking for statistics. 11,700 individuals experiencing homelessness in Seattle. 761 people experienced homelessness in Iceland.

[Canoeyawl]

According to a study in The Lancet, the Icelandic healthcare system has the world's second best Healthcare Access and Quality Index, a composite measure collected as a part of the Global Burden of Disease Study.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Iceland

[Jimmy W]

MTG is going with Ted's playbook.

Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene����
@RepMTG
Our nation needs to take a serious look at the state of mental health today.

Sometimes meds can be the problem.

America is failing our youngest generations from decades of rejecting good moral values and teachings.

We don’t need more gun control.

We need to return to God.

BTW, Gov. Abbott is also.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

That's because women only need to kill one man to eliminate their depression.

And it is well known that women tend to outlive men......


Does this raise a suspicion???

[Canoez]

That does not mean the 18 year old shooter was not on antidepressants or other medications prior or at the time he took on this attack. a full autopsy report may show something different. Moreover it is very common for young male adults to have a psychotic break in conjunction with increased self medication or use of stimulants such as aderall and/or methylphenidate which are traded easily and available via Craig's list or social media sites. Of course this is personal speculation and based on personal anecdotal evidence and experience with kids of this generation.

IOW - entirely unsupported speculation.

Teenagers are known to psychologists as having poor impulse control and many don’t consider them to have fully developed maturity until they turn 25. Teenagers are also known for making poor decisions and are still developing socially.

[WI-Tom]

Going back to my initial line of thought here, with some modifications:

1. There doesn't seem to be any evidence supporting a causal relationship between medications/mental health, and gun violence. And there seems to be reason to be very skeptical of any such claims, such as:

-Other nations with similar antidepressant use have nowhere near the level of gun violence we see in the U.S.
-Many of the sources suggesting a causal relationship between medication and gun violence are, on closer examination, either tort lawyers who stand to make millions/billions if they can win settlements with drug companies, or organizations/individuals arguing against gun control, often citing right-wing unreliable sources to do so.

2. On the other hand, a wrinkle I hadn't known about (not really directly related, but worth noting):

We find that local exposure to fatal school shootings leads to persistent and significant increases in youth antidepressant use [among survivors]. These impacts are smaller in areas with a higher density of mental health providers who focus on behavioral interventions.
...
We find that local exposure to fatal school shootings increases youth antidepressant use by 21.4% in the following 2 y.

So, a causal relationship between medication and gun violence DOES exist--it's simply the reverse of what the right-wing pro-gun people want us to believe. The conclusion seems to be that, if you are against anti-depressant use (and I agree there are risks associated with them, and would prefer behavioral interventions/mindfulness, etc.), then you have ANOTHER reason to want to reduce gun violence--by doing so, you'll also be reducing medication use.

Source

Finally, I'll come back to my initial thoughts that there does seem to be a lot of challenges for today's youth--a web of associated symptoms and contributing factors that may never be completely untangled. Including:

1. Anxiety. The National Institute of Mental Health reports:

Prevalence of Any Anxiety Disorder Among Adolescents

• An estimated 31.9% of adolescents had any anxiety disorder.
• Of adolescents with any anxiety disorder, an estimated 8.3% had severe impairment. ...
• The prevalence of any anxiety disorder among adolescents was higher for females (38.0%) than for males (26.1%).

That's disturbing, and certainly reflects my personal/anecdotal experience. Why?

Speculation might point toward:

-concerns/hopelessness about climate change
-concerns about gun violence, and the lack of action to address it while children are getting murdered in schools regularly
-influence of social media
-influence of hyper-partisan anger/fear-driven politics, leaving no adult in the room to keep things running smoothly--essentially a nation-wide version of a hyper-dysfunctional family
-a largely online culture of self-created bubbles leading to isolation/lack of connection
-an apparent (anecdotally) tendency for today's youth to live mostly online, with a lack of real-world activities (for example, the young people I know view driving as a chore, a burden, a downer--for me and my friends, a car = freedom to go out and do what we wanted to do). I worry that today's youth live primarily online, and are not able/willing to engage with the real world, or are not aware of opportunities to do so.

That said, one of the sources quoted above in this post did show that, where behavioral interventions were available, use of anti-depressants was significantly reduced. I'm all for getting our medical system focused on alternatives to drug use and medication; I think there are very real risks in over-medicating. Just a gut feeling that, if it were me, I'd rather change my thinking and behavior myself, with targeted strategies known to work, than to rely on medication to change my brain chemistry for me. Then again, I'm pretty educated/privileged, and would probably have an easier time, and more support, to make that kind of thing work.

Anyway, them's my thoughts at the moment.

Tom

[Boatbum]

FYI




People who have been harmed by Prozac have stated that they would not have agreed to treatment if they were aware of the potential issues. Eli Lilly has been accused of failing to warn the public about possible complications.

Has anyone read the cautions on virtually any medication including over-the-counter? The symptoms are disturbing for the most benign of the drugs that people take. As SSRI's and psychotropic medications go in general, Prozac is one of the safest. You would do more (possibly lethal) harm to your self from an overdose of Flintstones Complete Vitamins or Nyquil than from an overdose of Prozac.

[Keith Wilson]

Has anyone read the cautions on virtually any medication including over-the-counter?

Written mostly by lawyers, for the purpose of defending against lawsuits should something go wrong. Every possible thing is included, no matter how unlikely. Note that there's never anything about how common any one of them is, nothing like: 'Occurs in 3% of people who take this' or 'Happened once in 1993 in Arkansas'. The point is 'Don't sue us; we warned you'. Not terribly useful, alas.

[David G]

IOW - entirely unsupported speculation.

Teenagers are known to psychologists as having poor impulse control and many don’t consider them to have fully developed maturity until they turn 25. Teenagers are also known for making poor decisions and are still developing socially.

A specialty of some bilgerats...

[WI-Tom]

The measure of value in discussion is not whether it starts from "entirely unsupported speculation." Not at all. Plenty of worthy discussions and lines of inquiry begin with "entirely unsupported speculation."

The proper measure is, where does the discussion go after a line of speculation is opened? And how do the participants, and the OP, respond to evidence and logic that is introduced during the back-and-forth.

I think some here are pretty eager to criticize the OP simply because he hasn't unequivocally agreed with them. Yet. He's still posing challenges to posters' ideas here--and perhaps showing a reluctance to abandon his initial speculation as quickly as some want him to.

But I think many here are judging him far too quickly.

Tom

[David G]

The measure of value in discussion is not whether it starts from "entirely unsupported speculation." Not at all. Plenty of worthy discussions and lines of inquiry begin with "entirely unsupported speculation."

The proper measure is, where does the discussion go after a line of speculation is opened? And how do the participants, and the OP, respond to evidence and logic that is introduced during the back-and-forth.

I think some here are pretty eager to criticize the OP simply because he hasn't unequivocally agreed with them. Yet. He's still posing challenges to posters' ideas here--and perhaps showing a reluctance to abandon his initial speculation as quickly as some want him to.

But I think many here are judging him far too quickly.

Tom

And I think YOU haven't been paying attention at all if you think the OP has, or is interested in developing, anything beyond the badly-sourced, ill-considered, level of analysis he started with.

Sure, even the goofiest of propositions can result in a lively useful conversation. But if one habitually brings nothing to the table but cowflop, then resists all efforts to illuminate, ventilate, and correct... then one has to be simply called out as a particular brand of troll.

[Jfitzger]

The original article you linked was in reference to SSRI. You made the wild speculation that the majority of mass shooters were on antidepressants, the vast majority of which are SSRIs. Whatever other drugs you speculate he may be on is not relevant to a conversation about SSRIs.

You seem to be lumping all psychiatric drugs into one category. Despite your claims, dissociation is not a side effect of SSRIs. It is of some antipsychotic medications and to a lesser extent benzodiazepines like Xanax and Klonopin which are used to treat anxiety.

The attempt to manufacture a speculative link between people seeking treatment for depression and mass shootings is dangerous and corrosive. America has a crisis of untreated depression and ignorant bias only makes things worse.

I am lucky enough that diet, exercise and a chat with a friend is enough when I’m feeling down. A lot of people with severe depression are incapable of taking any proactive actions. One of the reasons having a gun in the home vastly increases the chance of suiciide is that people become so depressed they don’t have energy to leave the house to take their own life.

I do think that drugs are over prescribed and that lifestyle changes are ignored by way too much of the psychiatric community. I’m particularly concerned about Benzodiazepines because they are highly physically addictive and their use often precludes more effective forms of stress management. This doesn’t change the fact that for many people psychiatric drugs are a lifesaver.

[Canoez]

The measure of value in discussion is not whether it starts from "entirely unsupported speculation." Not at all. Plenty of worthy discussions and lines of inquiry begin with "entirely unsupported speculation."

The proper measure is, where does the discussion go after a line of speculation is opened? And how do the participants, and the OP, respond to evidence and logic that is introduced during the back-and-forth.

I think some here are pretty eager to criticize the OP simply because he hasn't unequivocally agreed with them. Yet. He's still posing challenges to posters' ideas here--and perhaps showing a reluctance to abandon his initial speculation as quickly as some want him to.

But I think many here are judging him far too quickly.

Tom

While I heartily agree that there is value in speculative discussion, there should be some measure of fact from which a discussion develops.

The OP has now hosted two threads positing that mental illness and the treatment of that mental illness with anti-depressants is present in a majority of mass shooters. Ok. Fine starting point.

Now support that point if you want to further the discussion.

I'm still waiting for viable support of those claims from the OP.

I see it as bashing those with depression and those that take medication for it. Sure, the OP had a bad experience, but it seems to color the discussion in an unnecessary way.

[Ted Hoppe]

Written mostly by lawyers, for the purpose of defending against lawsuits should something go wrong. Every possible thing is included, no matter how unlikely. Note that there's never anything about how common any one of them is, nothing like: 'Occurs in 3% of people who take this' or 'Happened once in 1993 in Arkansas'. The point is 'Don't sue us; we warned you'. Not terribly useful, alas.

Not a fan of product liability protections?

I guess you feel oxycodone addiction pushed by the drug companies and administered by thousands of doctors is a personal choice too? I would want you in that jury if I was defending.

[Boatbum]

Written mostly by lawyers, for the purpose of defending against lawsuits should something go wrong. Every possible thing is included, no matter how unlikely. Note that there's never anything about how common any one of them is, nothing like: 'Occurs in 3% of people who take this' or 'Happened once in 1993 in Arkansas'. The point is 'Don't sue us; we warned you'. Not terribly useful, alas.

Agreed, though you also have to include the FDA in the blame. Pharmaceutical companies are required to document all drug related complaints that they receive. Someone says that they experienced Nausea and vomiting from a Tums after having eaten a large Pizza and a six-pack of beer. That nausea report gets catalogued and reported to the FDA - after a few of these reports come in it then gets added as a possible side effect even if there is no proven causality.

[Ted Hoppe]

Poof

[Tom Wilkinson]

It is being reported that in this particular shooting the gunman had no previous mental health history. I assume that means he wasn’t in any antidepressants.
It’s cultural.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jimmy W]

It has been reported that he got in a fight with his mother about her shutting off WiFi, I wonder if he was a fan of shooter video games.

[Canoeyawl]

Written mostly by lawyers, for the purpose of defending against lawsuits should something go wrong. Every possible thing is included, no matter how unlikely. Note that there's never anything about how common any one of them is, nothing like: 'Occurs in 3% of people who take this' or 'Happened once in 1993 in Arkansas'. The point is 'Don't sue us; we warned you'. Not terribly useful, alas.

And much of what they do say are indeed causes of death.
"May cause bleeding"

[George Jung]

It has been reported that he got in a fight with his mother about her shutting off WiFi, I wonder if he was a fan of shooter video games.

Reportedly PO'd at his grandmother because wouldn't let him smoke weed and 'do whatever he wanted'. He'd also made some remarks at his fastfood job that, in hindsight, were flags. 'I don't have to work anymore; gonna make a splash'.. or somesuch.

Also told his foreign FB friend what he was up to - she didn't believe him.

He wanted out, and wanted to make a big mess/be famous. I've not read anything else about his state of mind.

[johnw]

It has been reported that he got in a fight with his mother about her shutting off WiFi, I wonder if he was a fan of shooter video games.

There is a natural experiment to test the hypothesis that first-person shooters cause mass-casualty shootings. Those games are popular throughout the developed world. Other countries where they are popular do not have a persistent problem with mass-casualty shootings.

[Keith Wilson]

Not a fan of product liability protections? I guess you feel oxycodone addiction pushed by the drug companies and administered by thousands of doctors is a personal choice too? I would want you in that jury if I was defending.

Hooooo boy, you sure did misunderstand me! I was referring to the side-effects warnings in fine print included with the bottle of pills. They list everything, from the very real, common, and deadly serious to the vanishingly rare and possibly unconnected. The problem is that they don't include any way to tell which is which.

[George Jung]

Percentages are in the expanded drug info list or the PDR.

[LeeG]

According to a study in The Lancet, the Icelandic healthcare system has the world's second best Healthcare Access and Quality Index, a composite measure collected as a part of the Global Burden of Disease Study.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Iceland

Ok, my vote is improve the health care system.

[Keith Wilson]

Percentages are in the expanded drug info list or the PDR.

Which Ted isn't using.

[George Jung]

nor the peer reviewed science.

[Canoez]

On the second thread relating to gender identity I posted a sentence of the conclusion of the study posted by the OP. That sentence from the conclusion indicated that the scientists didn't have any causal links for the gender dysphoria.

This implies throwing stuff at the wall to me when what you post doesn't agree with your own suppositions.

[Ted Hoppe]

Which Ted isn't using.

The PDR reflects only specific aspects tested and is not reflective of the over all drug safety. You know that but seek to throw the whole question out based on unexamined exploration. So does the good doctor.

In a classic way you have asked me how many angels are on the head of a pin when I say there may be one. It is much easier to answer no angels which would satisfy you and end the inquiry.

Would it make you happier to know since it was not tested it is not a problem. It is surprising that both of you prefer that and accept what product producers deem as safe and effective for nearly everyone with a 8 second disclaimer at the end.

[Keith Wilson]

Ted, you're misunderstanding me again. I said that there is no evidence that SSRIs make people more likely to run amok. This is true. If you find some, please let us know. If you want to encourage responsible research into the subject, be my guest. But there's still no evidence.

[Jimmy W]

It seems likely to me that the kid had undiagnosed mental illness and might have been helped with better access to mental health care and the proper drugs. His mother's boyfriend and his fellow students knew he was weird.