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Thread: Poofed

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    Default Poofed

    i will refrain from further correlations on the subject and will wait for the news to come.
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    Default Re: Poofed

    David G
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    Default Re: Poofed

    Dang it. I had to take a work call.

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    Default Re: Poofed

    You mean the thread on psych meds went poof? I didn't agree with the OP, but it is a common assertion and very worth thinking about.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

    "Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." - Will Rogers

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    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    You mean the thread on psych meds went poof? I didn't agree with the OP, but it is a common assertion and very worth thinking about.
    I agree. It is a very good idea, I think, to question conventional wisdom. But people do tend to react defensively, and with great hostility, when one of their own sacred cows is in line for close inspection.

    I think a good discussion could be conducted on the topic, and I believe that was Ted's intention with the thread.

    Tom
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    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    I agree. It is a very good idea, I think, to question conventional wisdom. But people do tend to react defensively, and with great hostility, when one of their own sacred cows is in line for close inspection.

    I think a good discussion could be conducted on the topic, and I believe that was Ted's intention with the thread.

    Tom
    If Ted presented any evidence of his claims, we could have a discussion. He did not. Lacking that, what is there but 'You're wrong, you old poopy-head!' or some variation?
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: Poofed

    What was the claim? I missed it entirely

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    Default Re: Poofed

    The OP used a statistic that I thought was very suspect, so I looked up the group making the claim and decided that the group was very suspect also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    I agree. It is a very good idea, I think, to question conventional wisdom. But people do tend to react defensively, and with great hostility, when one of their own sacred cows is in line for close inspection.

    I think a good discussion could be conducted on the topic, and I believe that was Ted's intention with the thread.

    Tom
    Huh. Surprised you 'missed the mark' on this one.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    If Ted presented any evidence of his claims, we could have a discussion. He did not. Lacking that, what is there but 'You're wrong, you old caffeine!' or some variation?
    To be fair there were a bunch of the crew that found the topic difficult. Immediately I was found to be the poopy head for posting it.
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 05-25-2022 at 04:49 PM.
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    Default Re: Poofed

    .
    No surprise to me that it was poofed.
    "If you're a Republican, you can't even lie to Congress or lie to an FBI agent or they're coming after you."

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    Default Re: Poofed

    FYI

    Prozac Lawsuit Claims

    Over 300 Prozac lawsuits have been addressed by the court systems including 30 lawsuits that were settled for an estimated $50 million. These lawsuits had largely been filed by people who claimed the medication caused the user to commit or attempt to commit murder or suicide. An additional 75 federal cases and other cases in courts across the country were resolved by dismissal or private settlements. In addition to early claims of suicide or homicide, one of the most common issues resulting in a lawsuit after using Prozac are claims for birth defects. Prozac lawsuits have also claimed developmental disorders, such as autism, were the result of being prescribed during pregnancy. Specific notable cases include:

    • In one Prozac lawsuit case, a SWAT team captain and police officer, Daren Alli, committed suicide after 4 days of taking Prozac. He had reportedly been suffering from mild symptoms of depression but Alli’s wife claimed that suicide was out of character for her husband. His wife also claimed that Alli would not have attempted treatment with the drug if he knew the possible risk of Prozac.
    • In one Prozac Birth Defect Lawsuit, a woman who took Prozac in 1996 during pregnancy gave birth to a son with a heart defect. The child required multiple cardiac surgeries over the course of several years, but the mother was unaware that the drug she had taken during her first trimester may have been responsible and did not file a lawsuit until 2013. Lilly unsuccessfully attempted to have the lawsuit dismissed in 2015 but the plaintiff was unsuccessful in court.
    • Prozac lawsuit claims have not been limited to the United States. In a Canadian Prozac lawsuit case, it was disclosed that Eli Lilly failed to report to the FDA about the findings of two studies about psychological instability resulting from Prozac. In this Prozac lawsuit case, it was disclosed that if the studies were presented to the FDA, health professionals would be better aware of patients’ risks.

    People who have been harmed by Prozac have stated that they would not have agreed to treatment if they were aware of the potential issues. Eli Lilly has been accused of failing to warn the public about possible complications.

    https://medlineplus.gov/druginfo/meds/a697048.html

    A small number of children, teenagers, and young adults (up to 24 years of age) who took antidepressants ('mood elevators') such as sertraline during clinical studies became suicidal (thinking about harming or killing oneself or planning or trying to do so). Children, teenagers, and young adults who take antidepressants to treat depression or other mental illnesses may be more likely to become suicidal than children, teenagers, and young adults who do not take antidepressants to treat these conditions. However, experts are not sure about how great this risk is and how much it should be considered in deciding whether a child or teenager should take an antidepressant.

    https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/antidepressants-and-fdas-black-box-warning-determining-rational-public-policy-absence-sufficient/2012-06

    In October of 2004, the Federal Drug Administration (FDA) issued a “black-box” label warning indicating that the use of certain antidepressants to treat major depressive disorder (MDD) in adolescents may increase the risk of suicidal ideations and behaviors. The warning came shortly after the FDA’s British counterpart, the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA), concluded that selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) with the exception of fluoxetine (Prozac) should not be used to treat adolescents with major depressive disorders.
    The MHRA’s 2003 recommendation, based on a report by the Committee on Safety of Medicines’ Expert Working Group, states that, with the exception of fluoxetine, SSRIs have not been found efficacious in randomized clinical trials [1]. Moreover, the group also noticed an increased risk of suicidal behaviors among adolescent patients being treated with SSRIs and judged that the balance of risks and benefits did not favor the use of SSRIs for adolescents with MDD. Only fluoxetine showed significant therapeutic benefits; fluvoxamine (Luvox) lacked evidence to warrant any cost-benefit analysis.
    The MHRA’s investigation into the safety of SSRIs in treating adolescents with major depressive disorder came about serendipitously. In evaluating GlaxoSmithKline’s application for approving the use of paroxetine (Paxil) to treat adolescents with obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD) and social anxiety disorder, the MHRA requested all data including unpublished trials from GlaxoSmithKline. An examination of the data showed that rate of suicide attempts was higher among adolescent patients taking paroxetine for MDD than among the placebo-controlled group [2]. The MHRA then launched a broader investigation into the safety of SSRIs and requested all data from pharmaceutical companies. It was this meta-analysis of the newly discovered evidence that led the Expert Working Group to its recommendation [3]. In response to the MHRA’s recommendation, the FDA launched its own investigation to determine whether there was an increased risk for suicidality among pediatric patients with MDD being treated with SSRIs [4].
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 05-25-2022 at 05:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson
    If Ted presented any evidence of his claims, we could have a discussion. He did not. Lacking that, what is there but 'You're wrong, you old poopy-head!' or some variation?
    The claims being that anti-depression meds are linked to mass shootings.
    "If you're a Republican, you can't even lie to Congress or lie to an FBI agent or they're coming after you."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    The claims being that anit-depression meds are linked to mass shootings.
    Murder suicides are a thing you know. Many of those involved in mass shootings are looking for a way out. It is easier to have someone kill you than it is to kill yourself while you are in a fit of self loathing and pain.

    How many people have cops shoot them rather than pull the trigger themselves?

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...970_story.html
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 05-25-2022 at 05:55 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    If Ted presented any evidence of his claims, we could have a discussion. He did not. Lacking that, what is there but 'You're wrong, you old poopy-head!' or some variation?
    It was hardly the first time an OP didn't include sufficient evidence to be convincing. I guess I'm uninformed enough about the topic that I thought it would be worthy of intelligent discussion, but it seemed to go hostile pretty fast. Perhaps that is justified based on what some posters know about the topic. But it was a new idea to me. I have no dog in the fight, nor any opinion, but I was interested.

    That may partly be my own bias against medication as our primary response to so much mental and physical health treatments. I think there is much to be done with mental training, mindfulness, diet, and exercise. But that is rarely on the radar of conventional medicine, it seems to me.

    Not meant as an attack on conventional medicine, by the way. There's incredible value there as well. My boss had a stroke this spring. Three days later he was back at work. I suspect that 20 years ago, he would have died.

    Tom
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    .
    Anti-depression meds are prescribed throughout the developed world. Yet school shootings, like gun violence in general, is a uniquely U.S. problem.

    https://worldpopulationreview.com/co...ngs-by-country
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    .
    Anti-depression meds are prescribed throughout the developed world. Yet school shootings, like gun violence in general, is a uniquely U.S. problem.

    https://worldpopulationreview.com/co...ngs-by-country
    Maybe but there is this too.

    Screen Shot 2022-05-25 at 4.02.41 PM.jpg
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    To be fair, the U.S. ranks either #1 or #2 in anti-depressant use. (Edit to say: Ted beat me to it, dang it).

    I think it's entirely plausible that the high rate of gun violence and the high rate of anti-depressant use are associated--i.e. not causal (anti-depressants causing gun violence), but both symptomatic of something inherently broken and anxiety-inducing in U.S. culture.

    Did I mention I'm moving to Poland in August? I'm not sure where they rank, but the nearby Baltic states are very low on the list.

    Tom
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    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom
    To be fair, the U.S. ranks either #1 or #2 in anti-depressant use. (Edit to say: Ted beat me to it, dang it).
    No surprise to me. I consider myself to be a fairly average guy. And I was once prescribed an anti-depression med and took it for about 6 months. I never felt compelled to kill anyone.
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    Default Re: Poofed

    Darn op. Please post conclusive evidence next time.

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    Default Re: Poofed

    Sheesh... I leave this place for 8 hours and miss all the fun...
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    Default Re: Poofed

    You probably had more fun at work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    You mean the thread on psych meds went poof? I didn't agree with the OP, but it is a common assertion and very worth thinking about.
    No... it's not really 'worth thinking about', other than briefly. Because that's all it takes to research the question and discover that it already HAS been thought about (if you didn't already know that) and discarded as a potential relevant bit. And it's been looked at because the same lame claim is bruited after every such event.

    I can see if one wants to set it on the back shelf in case new evidence surfaces that makes us want to revisit it. Never a bad idea, even with the most seemingly silly notions (The Earth circles around the SUN??? Hah!!!). <G>

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    If Ted presented any evidence of his claims, we could have a discussion. He did not. Lacking that, what is there but 'You're wrong, you old poopy-head!' or some variation?
    Just so. If Ted had brought something new and convincing to the, to me, long-settled discussion... it might have been worth exploring. But my suspicion is that there IS no such evidence. Because it is and always has been a canard. A ploy that our best science currently says is cowflop. A deflection. A shiny distraction for the easily bamboozled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    To be fair there were a bunch of the crew that found the topic difficult. Immediately I was found to be the poopy head for posting it.
    I don't think anyone found it 'difficult'. I think the reactions were more in the 'highly implausible' to 'execrable & disgusting' range.



    There are several BilgeRats who make this a regular habit here. Stumble across some sparkly notion... add zero research, zero verification, and zero cogitation... then post it here to see what the response is.

    And sometimes y'all even get huffy if your bangle du jour is poorly received.
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    Ted, to be fair, if you plotted obesity there is a fair chance it would look the same. The implication that obesity causes mass shootings doesn't work at all because from what I've seen those shooters tend to be skinny.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    Maybe but there is this too.

    Screen Shot 2022-05-25 at 4.02.41 PM.jpg
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    Default Re: Poofed

    I Googled the subject back on the old thread, but I never posted the results. I found this article. What bothered me is that I also found articles from reputable news sources (if you think USA Today is reputable) that discussed it without discrediting it. Then, of course, there were the blogs...

    Plus, you know that if David G thinks it isn't worth discussing, then that alone makes it worth discussing. Right?
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    No surprise to me. I consider myself to be a fairly average guy. And I was once prescribed an anti-depression med and took it for about 6 months. I never felt compelled to kill anyone.
    Sure. For the record, the two facts can be associated without having a causal relationship. In which case, the question becomes something like, "What is so messed up about U.S. culture that results in such high levels of anxiety and depression, AND high levels of gun violence?"

    I don't know how it seems to others, but I can tell you as a teacher and an uncle that today's teens and college-age kids seem to be experiencing overwhelming levels of anxiety, isolation, and depression.

    Another associated phenomenon, possibly, is Internet use and social media.

    I'm glad I didn't have to grow up in today's world, for lots and lots of reasons.

    Tom
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    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    I don't know how it seems to others, but I can tell you as a teacher and an uncle that today's teens and college-age kids seem to be experiencing overwhelming levels of anxiety, isolation, and depression.
    This is a topic that is well worth discussing. Some might argue it was COVID and the periodic school shooting, but I think it has more to do with them picking up the elevated level of anger in our society that is driven by politics. We live in a very angry society right now.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

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    ^ that is a valid perspective. I can accept that as it all ties in.
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    There was an (unsupported) assertion that the majority of mass shooters were taking anti-depressants.

    There is also the huge hole in the theory as mass shooters don’t seem to be majority female. Women take anti-depressants at nearly double the rate of men. Over 60 women in particular should be vicious killers:

    During 2015–2018, 13.2% of adults aged 18 and over used antidepressant medications in the past 30 days. Use was higher among women (17.7%) than men (8.4%). Antidepressant use increased with age, overall and in both sexes—use was highest among women aged 60 and over (24.3%).
    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db377.htm
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    Default Re: Poofed

    .
    In the 21st century "first person shooters" are popular entertainment for our children on their phones, tablets and game consoles and computers. Of course, such video games are popular throughout the developed world. But the USA is unique in providing easy access to firearms and ammunition. I would argue that the US "gun culture" is unique phenomenon in the world.
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    Default Re: Poofed

    Ted, suspicions based on anecdotal evidence are fine… but PROOF only comes from double-blind, placebo-controlled studies. Anecdotes are not evidence.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







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    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    There is also the huge hole in the theory as mass shooters don’t seem to be majority female. Women take anti-depressants at nearly double the rate of men. Over 60 women in particular should be vicious killers:

    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db377.htm
    That seems like a weak rebuttal. Plenty of medications have different effects by gender, I think. But am happy to be corrected about that by those who know better.

    Nor do I think the causal link between anti-depressants and shootings has been supported by evidence yet on this thread. It seems less plausible than a mere co-relation, which is also an interesting topic: if they are linked or associated in some way, why? How? Why in the U.S. and not elsewhere? (That last one seems to support the idea that access to guns and a culture that glorifies their use--and not mental health--are the problem as far as mass shootings go).

    Tom
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    There was an (unsupported) assertion that the majority of mass shooters were taking anti-depressants.

    There is also the huge hole in the theory as mass shooters don’t seem to be majority female. Women take anti-depressants at nearly double the rate of men. Over 60 women in particular should be vicious killers:
    That's because women only need to kill one man to eliminate their depression.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

    "Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." - Will Rogers

    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - Groucho Marx

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    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    That's because women only need to kill one man to eliminate their depression.
    . .
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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